Abortion and voting ?

I don't know if we can win this war. This was the lesson most of us learned from Vietnam. As long as they are family fighting against family, we will always be the outsider and when push comes to shove, we will be denied by those we fight for. The most we can hope for is leaving with some dignity...

Don't forget the department of homeland scrutiny or is it security??? They are still not clear on their mission, purpose or direction. In the land of the free, it is hard to police from within and maintain the concept of freedom. Defending the nation was the job of the military, now we created a department to ?????? Oh yeah, screen you at the airport...

 

We apparently learned nothing from Vietnam if that is what you think the lesson was. The lesson we should have learned is that the only sure way to lose is to give up. Of course we can win in Iraq, if the anti-war weaklings and traitors will ever stop bad mouthing our troops and giving verbal aid and comfort to the enemy. Your side has done more to demoralize America than the enemy ever could have.

Joseph Botwinick

 

So many Christians think that voting for Republicans, because they give lip-service to the pro-life side of things, and create little legislative "pockets" which are, in effect absolutely worthless, but give some lobbyists and political action groups fodder for their voter guides/scorecards, is voting against abortion. Wrong. Republicans have had the power to stop abortion on demand since Ronald Reagan was elected President in 1980 and, like the other Republican presidents since, chose to keep a pro-life majority from sitting on the Supreme Court by appointing at least one justice he knew would not vote to overturn.

The social issues advocated by Christians will never be a high priority as long as Republican politicians think their votes and support are automatic, regardless of whether they do anything about it or not. They are so sure that the Christian right is in their pocket that they flaunt that fact. Bush does photo ops coming out of church, after attending services in a church that is openly welcoming and affirming of the gay-lesbian lifestyle. Karl Rove mocks leaders of the religious right. Cheney appeals to the secular side of the party by discounting moral and social political issues, using his power in the administration to put them on the back burner, or negotiate them out of consideration.

And yet, there will be plenty of Christians who still go ahead and cast their vote for these liars and deceivers, and continue to depend on one side of a political system to deliver what, revival? Salvation? Influence? People to fill the pews? God's blessing on America? Pipe dreams, folks.

 

You think we could have won when the guy we were protecting by day was the one attacking us by night? There ws no north and south vietnam, there was vietnamese and americans in that war.

Now the same with Iraq, we drop millions in bombs and they kill the brother of the prosecutor??? We gained no ground and made many more enemies, they have all the prosecution and their family scared to death???

The best we can do is stabilize the region enough to get and election and new government so we can hand this mess over to them.

 

As a Republican, I would like to encourage the liberals to continue the abortion issue attack. It shows how crazy, delusional, and obsessed they are. Crazy and delusional because they really think that this is the reason Republicans keep getting re-elected instead of the fact that we are better on security and are not going to cut and run in Iraq. Obsessed because they are obsessed with slaughtering unborn babies.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Of course we can win, if you will ever shut your mouth and stop demoralizing the nation and our troops. You and Hanoi Jane...like peas in a pod.

Joseph Botwinick

 

I disagree. The first amendment is still pretty much operative.

 

Just understand that you have no credibility or moral authority and there is no reason for anyone to take you seriously. If you think you can find the perfect candidate who will never let you down, you are delusional at best and inconsistent with your reformed theology.

Joseph Botwinick

 

now that's a low blow, I never point a gun at one of our guys. I am on their side.

What would be victory in this war? Can terroism be stopped? Can the extreme Islam be defeated? Peace in the middle east???

 

I have never claimed that I have credibility or moral authority, nor that I should be taken seriously.

I have no power to force my views on anyone nor do I desire it.

 

Your demoralizing of the troops and weakening the resolve of the American Public is just as bad as pointing a gun at one of our guys. Terrorism can never be totally annihilated, just as there are still Nazis in the world today. We can win the war by neutralizing the threat of terrorism, and yes, there can be relative peace in the Middle East without some Dispy delusion. We cannot just say to ourselves that we cannot defeat terrorism, so why try? What would happen if we took that line of thought against Germany, against abortion? The only sure way to lose a war is to give up. You keep fighting for your life instead of rolling over and playing dead. The sad part is that I don't think you understand why it is important to win this war. You probably think the terrorists can be appeased. You are wrong.

Joseph Botwinick

 

I wish you luck but the truth is America is not prepared to pay the price of victory. Did you see the sniper thread, no one wants to see our sons and daughters killed which means we will never do what it takes to "win".

Leave with dignity, yes. Win, no.

Remember, they are not afraid to die and they celebrate the death of their young. A guy who straps a bomb to himself is a hero over there. How are we going to beat a guy at war who is not afraid to die and whose death is celebrated? Through diplomatic sanctions? Heck, they have more now than they ever had. Say what you will but I believe I am the voice of reason.

It is like what Jesus said to the rich man, he didn't say he couldn't have eternal life, he simply told him the price. I'm not saying we can't win, I'm saying we're not prepared to pay the price.

 

So...do you get a check from Al Quaeda or do they wire your money to a swiss bank account? You and Jane...peas in a pod.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Naw, after funding the Republican campiegns they only had crumbs left for me. In fact, I thought I say your name on the payroll???

 

LeBuick: //I'm not saying we can't win, I'm saying we're
not prepared to pay the price.//

Current cost in Iraq: 2600+ American lives (in about 4 years).
About the same cost as 19 hours in the American War
Against Abortion. Sadly, we can't pay that steep a price

Or should I just shoot LeBuick for correctly identilfying
the current Ameican mood?

 

2600+ in 4 years of maintaining peace. We are not truly fighting the war, we are just maintaining the peace. To fight would raise that number quickly. And there is a large part of the country who feels 2600 is too high.

Don't misunderstand my true position, once we lost one American I believe we need to stay to the end. Same with Vietnam, we should have finished what we started instead of abandoning our post like that. However, if we stayed in Vietnam we needed to fight. I mean fight like we wanted to win and not with rules like you can't go north of the DMZ or can't shoot a plane while on the ground. I would love to see us finish this fight. But we are fighting with politics and young citizens blood. We are scared to have the rest of the middle east join the fight until we really are afraid to fight.

Now for the truth, NKorea just exploded a series of nuclear test. China won't officially side against them as they are a large part of China's economic health. If another plane hits another building then yes, the people will support staying in Iraq. It just seems America's attention is turning from terrorism to one of let's just protect ourselves and let the rest of the world do what they want.

 

Seems you have changed your position. You went from we can't win to we must win. If your beef is with how we are fighting the war, I agree with you. If your beef is with whether we should fight the war, I disagree with you. Something tells me, however, that if we were to fight the war to win it, you would be first in line to whine and complain about the massive body count.

Joseph Botwinick

 

I'm relying on memory here, so it may be faulty. But I don't recall a single action by the US Senate or House that legalized abortion. The actions I remember are those designed to limit the effect of rulings by unelected courts.

Neither do I recall any governor proposing pro-abortion legislation.

I am pro-life to the hilt. But isn't it short-sighted to vote against a pro-abortion candidate whose votes on the issue will essentially be meaningless? Same for voting for pro-life candidates based only on their abortion stance. Their pro-life votes mean little either except for some political posturing.

Oh, there is one thing pro-life US Senators can do. They can vote for federal judges who hold a high view of the constitution and of the sacredness of life itself.

How many of us voted for Jimmy Carter for president because he was a professing Christian and a Baptist? Look what that got us.

My point is that single-issue voting weakens and dilutes our influence as Christian citizens.

 

My beef is if we're going to fight to win then let's do it. Let's start up the draft and go over and wipe out the whole middle east. If we are not willing to commit 100% the then let's bring them home when we can stabilize the region. I don't want to see anyone's chile sent somewhere just to be target practise.

 

We don't need to wipe out the whole Middle East to win the war. That is an ignorant statement from a traitor. We do need to tune the traitors in this nation out, however, who are spewing enemy propganda and crying about the civil rights of the terrorists and win the war.

Joseph Botwinick