In America, some of the left wing liberal crowd would rather you kill an unborn child out of conveniance, than kill an animal for food.
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Abortion Doctors and the Media
- Thread starter Phillip
- Start date
Mr Curtis:
You got that right!!! Shows how sick and unthinking the "liberal" is. Save a whale or a snail darter and kill a baby. To me, that shows how unthinking, blinded, and without Christ the people are that can't see the difference. I even had a 7th grade teacher in the public school system tell me that there is no difference between an animal and a human. I told her I was sure glad she wasn't teaching any of my kids. (She's a former friend now). Or hug a tree, dance around in a sacred circle and worship the goddess sophia, save the owl, but, oh my, sacrifice your child to the god of this system of things. Pretty repulsive isn't it?
James2
[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]
You got that right!!! Shows how sick and unthinking the "liberal" is. Save a whale or a snail darter and kill a baby. To me, that shows how unthinking, blinded, and without Christ the people are that can't see the difference. I even had a 7th grade teacher in the public school system tell me that there is no difference between an animal and a human. I told her I was sure glad she wasn't teaching any of my kids. (She's a former friend now). Or hug a tree, dance around in a sacred circle and worship the goddess sophia, save the owl, but, oh my, sacrifice your child to the god of this system of things. Pretty repulsive isn't it?
James2
[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JAMES2:
Phillip:
I'm assuming your hypothetical about being in a room with a abortion doctor, a gun and a bible and no secular law to prevent you from being "free" and handling the situation was a joke. I mean, you weren't implying that their was some kind of moral choice involved were you? Of course you don't murder someone.
[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, actually I was putting as a question to someone who made a post that indicated they felt it was better to kill the doctors than allow more babies to b killed. I was putting a moral question to see how he would answer it--that was all. Of course, murder is wrong and I was simply trying to find out how the person who placed the post REALLY felt about murdering a doctor. My point was, if he had a choice like that to make would he try to convert the doctor or would he just kill him under those circumstances (if he wouldn't get in trouble for the murder--that was to see his morale attitude without fear of consequences). That was all I was after, simply a question. It was never answered so my hypothetical situation is just null and void now. Thank you for the concern, I want to make sure my intentions were clear. I would NEVER, EVER condone the killing or even doing anything illegal (because that too is against God's law), but I sure WILL back the protestors as long as they are non-violent and show Christian love and not hate. I will also push for senators and congress to overturn the rules. That is the only way. Get the government to ban it again, then if it is illegal it can be prosecuted as such.
But, I want to also state that I think that abortion, though it is a horrible, horrible, thing to kill thousands of babies a day, is a symptom of the moral decay of our country as we turn away from God. AND, I as a Christian take a lot of that blame for not doing my job of promoting the gospel well enough to my friends and co-workers. I feel the answer is heavy-duty prayer and Christians getting serious about bringing revival to this country. If this happens, the sin will take care of itself as people clean up their acts when they turn to Jesus. (Not arguing or debating at all---just thinking aloud about the problem)
Thank you for letting me clarify that.
Phillip:
I'm assuming your hypothetical about being in a room with a abortion doctor, a gun and a bible and no secular law to prevent you from being "free" and handling the situation was a joke. I mean, you weren't implying that their was some kind of moral choice involved were you? Of course you don't murder someone.
[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, actually I was putting as a question to someone who made a post that indicated they felt it was better to kill the doctors than allow more babies to b killed. I was putting a moral question to see how he would answer it--that was all. Of course, murder is wrong and I was simply trying to find out how the person who placed the post REALLY felt about murdering a doctor. My point was, if he had a choice like that to make would he try to convert the doctor or would he just kill him under those circumstances (if he wouldn't get in trouble for the murder--that was to see his morale attitude without fear of consequences). That was all I was after, simply a question. It was never answered so my hypothetical situation is just null and void now. Thank you for the concern, I want to make sure my intentions were clear. I would NEVER, EVER condone the killing or even doing anything illegal (because that too is against God's law), but I sure WILL back the protestors as long as they are non-violent and show Christian love and not hate. I will also push for senators and congress to overturn the rules. That is the only way. Get the government to ban it again, then if it is illegal it can be prosecuted as such.
But, I want to also state that I think that abortion, though it is a horrible, horrible, thing to kill thousands of babies a day, is a symptom of the moral decay of our country as we turn away from God. AND, I as a Christian take a lot of that blame for not doing my job of promoting the gospel well enough to my friends and co-workers. I feel the answer is heavy-duty prayer and Christians getting serious about bringing revival to this country. If this happens, the sin will take care of itself as people clean up their acts when they turn to Jesus. (Not arguing or debating at all---just thinking aloud about the problem)
Thank you for letting me clarify that.
Phillip:
I was pretty sure that that is what you were doing. But thanks for the added clarification.
While I agree with you on child-sacrifice, I have changed my mind a little bit on "protesting." While I find abortion so repulsive and anti-Christ, I'm not sure what good it does to try to convince senators, public "servants," and women that have been brain-washed by the school system since they were little girls that child-sacrifice is a "right", to stand in the street and yell at them.
The public school system, the media etc, have our kids the majority of their young lives and have fed them such garbage that they actually BELIEVE that offering up their unborn to the gods of this world is somehow a right that belongs to them. What to do about it?
Education from Godly parents and the Holy Spirit seems to be the answer. In 1 cor. 2:14 it says the things of the spirit CANNOT be understood unless enlightened by the Spirit. I find very few, if any, truly born again women that are not repulsed by child sacrifice ( I use the term child sacrifice, because that is what it is). For a woman (little girl) to refuse to think through the issue, and babble about "my body," "my reproductive rights," my "choice" is disheartening to say the least, but until that person is born again they just won't get it, no matter how much reasoning we do. It seems to be an issue that God has enlightened you about or Satan has blinded you about. I don't see any middle ground.
I am especially skeptical about politicians, "Supreme" Court justices, and people in power to do anything that is right. You vote for someone because they are pro life, then they get in office and vote the opposite or get on the court and vote the opposite from what they said.
Thank God that He is Sovereign and in control.
James2
[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]
I was pretty sure that that is what you were doing. But thanks for the added clarification.
While I agree with you on child-sacrifice, I have changed my mind a little bit on "protesting." While I find abortion so repulsive and anti-Christ, I'm not sure what good it does to try to convince senators, public "servants," and women that have been brain-washed by the school system since they were little girls that child-sacrifice is a "right", to stand in the street and yell at them.
The public school system, the media etc, have our kids the majority of their young lives and have fed them such garbage that they actually BELIEVE that offering up their unborn to the gods of this world is somehow a right that belongs to them. What to do about it?
Education from Godly parents and the Holy Spirit seems to be the answer. In 1 cor. 2:14 it says the things of the spirit CANNOT be understood unless enlightened by the Spirit. I find very few, if any, truly born again women that are not repulsed by child sacrifice ( I use the term child sacrifice, because that is what it is). For a woman (little girl) to refuse to think through the issue, and babble about "my body," "my reproductive rights," my "choice" is disheartening to say the least, but until that person is born again they just won't get it, no matter how much reasoning we do. It seems to be an issue that God has enlightened you about or Satan has blinded you about. I don't see any middle ground.
I am especially skeptical about politicians, "Supreme" Court justices, and people in power to do anything that is right. You vote for someone because they are pro life, then they get in office and vote the opposite or get on the court and vote the opposite from what they said.
Thank God that He is Sovereign and in control.
James2
[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]
I really appreciated reading all the posts in this thread.
We have been a foster home for unwed mothers in the past. Their confusion and fear is enormous. One of the best things we can do is from that angle. Help out in any way you can. There are support clinics for these mothers all over the United States now, and I think a number in other places as well. But even if there are not, be aware of the kids in your area especially. Be aware of folks whose marriages seem a bit troubled. Reach out in friendship and care and see if something is said. There are several babies alive and growing up today because of us, and I know we are the least of the families who are involved, as we could only help out with a few.
What would Jesus do? It's what He didn't do that is interesting. Abortion was rampant in Rome and the Roman Empire at the time. Yet Jesus never said a word, nor did the Apostles. However there is something He said that is interesting and might be rightly terrifying to those promoting and helping out with abortions: the angels of the little ones are always before God in heaven (Matthew 18:10).
Where we used to live, I worked with an organization which went around to the schools and held meetings regarding chastity. The woman I worked with had a marvelous way of making the girls laugh and still get the message. She would give every one of them a quarter (that is all that was needed then...) and tell them, "When things start getting a little hot, excuse yourself and tell your date you need to call your dad. If what is going on is OK with your Dad, then it's OK with you..."
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the abortion is the END stage of a nasty mess. We can do a lot by stopping the problem at the beginning.
We can't stop the way the world is going, but we can reach out to the individual girls and babies. And everything counts.
We have been a foster home for unwed mothers in the past. Their confusion and fear is enormous. One of the best things we can do is from that angle. Help out in any way you can. There are support clinics for these mothers all over the United States now, and I think a number in other places as well. But even if there are not, be aware of the kids in your area especially. Be aware of folks whose marriages seem a bit troubled. Reach out in friendship and care and see if something is said. There are several babies alive and growing up today because of us, and I know we are the least of the families who are involved, as we could only help out with a few.
What would Jesus do? It's what He didn't do that is interesting. Abortion was rampant in Rome and the Roman Empire at the time. Yet Jesus never said a word, nor did the Apostles. However there is something He said that is interesting and might be rightly terrifying to those promoting and helping out with abortions: the angels of the little ones are always before God in heaven (Matthew 18:10).
Where we used to live, I worked with an organization which went around to the schools and held meetings regarding chastity. The woman I worked with had a marvelous way of making the girls laugh and still get the message. She would give every one of them a quarter (that is all that was needed then...) and tell them, "When things start getting a little hot, excuse yourself and tell your date you need to call your dad. If what is going on is OK with your Dad, then it's OK with you..."
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the abortion is the END stage of a nasty mess. We can do a lot by stopping the problem at the beginning.
We can't stop the way the world is going, but we can reach out to the individual girls and babies. And everything counts.
Barnabas H.
<b>Oldtimer</b>
Our in-laws brought a Christian video for us last Christmas [of which they never heard themselves and borrowed a little later but of which they haven’t returned yet 
]. If I am not mistaken it was one of the creations of Gloria and Bill Gaither. They had good music, with a mixture of some light CCM as well as a collection of short personal testimonies on it. I remember one particular testimony by a lady singer, whose daughter later joined her on the platform. Their story was so moving that I couldn’t watch them without having tears in my eyes. Here is the story, as I recall it.
The lady singer, whose name I forgot, related her story somewhat like this. She was a young college student when she was raped off campus. She was so desperate that she did not know what to do. She did not hear of abortion, so she hid her condition as long as she could. Her parents wanted her to get rid of the baby, for they felt stigmatized by it. Nevertheless when the time of delivery came their daughter gave birth to a beautiful baby girl, of which they promptly put up for adoption. They considered it a total disgrace to have a baby out of wedlock and they wanted to preserve the appearance of properness in the life of their daughter. They never have seen the baby again.
Their daughter completed college, eventually got married to a respectable young man and the two established a family. Since she was endowed with many talents she became a singer. Somewhere along the line she met the Lord and she got saved. From that moment on her heart was yearning to know what happened to her baby of long ago. But could not get herself to the point of searching for her lost baby. The quilt in her heart was weighing her down. Years passed by in this manner.
In the mean while a Christian couple, who adopted her baby, raised up their daughter in the fear of the Lord. They loved her as she would be their very own. The young girl grew up loving the Lord and never tasting the world. Later she married to an impressionable young man and the two were blessed by the Lord with children of their own. The adopted parents, however, let her know that she was given to them as a gift by God and that somewhere out there she must have a biological mother. They left it in her hands if she wanted to search for her biological mother. Years passed by and while she would never leave her adopted parents, for she loved them as if they were her own flesh and blood, her heart was yearning to know who was her biological mother. So one day she started to research adoption papers and followed the trails. Soon she had to hire a detective agency to do the final zeroing in on the location of her Mom.
When she learned about who her Mom was, she was contemplating on how she would approach her. So she did what most in similar circumstances would do. She called her biological Mother up on the phone. She introduced herself by giving a short bio, then she told her Mom that she understood why things happened to her the way it did. But she reassured her Mom that it was in the sovereign plan of God that things happened the way they did, and as a result she learned to know and love the Lord as her Savior. She then was wondering if her Mom would be willing to meet her and see her children as well. I don’t think I have to tell you the response from the other side of the phone. There was a lot of crying, but the two eventually set a date to meet. In the mean while her Mom told her that she was saved also, and would it happen to her now she would never abandon her baby girl.
As the lady singer was relating this story to the audience, she asked a young lady in the front rows to come up to the platform and stand beside her. It was her biological daughter of whom she abandoned many years ago. The two hugged and kissed, and then it was the daughter’s turn to give her testimony about her family and the love of the Lord. The most moving part was when she thanked her Mom for not having an abortion many years before, but carrying her to full term and giving her life. She was telling of her adoptive parents, their love of her and of the Lord, and that she is today because of what they instilled in her heart. And she said that she was so fortunate to have two sets of Moms, and how much she loved them both for what they have given her. I can tell you that there was not a dry pair of eyes in the audience. Sorry for not remembering the name of the lady singer, but I thought you may appreciate the story.
Needless to say that I for one am against abortion, and abortion clinics, but I also maintain, of what has been voiced here on this thread, that judgment belongs to the Lord. I believe that when Jesus whipped the money exchangers out of the temple, He exercised His divine prerogative and not His human judgment. So, when we hear of individuals who take upon themselves to punish the abortionist doctors and clinics, they are in fact taking matters into their hands of which only God and His instrument here on earth is ordained to do (which is the government). And when the government fails to regulate these matters in a way, which would be in the sovereign will of the Lord, then the Lord interevenes and punishes the wayward nation - of which you can be traced down throughout human history. Well, that was my two-cent’s worth on this subject. And, oh yes, I do not approve of the media's coverage of this whole matter for the reasons many of you quoted.
[ December 08, 2001: Message edited by: Barnabas ]
]. If I am not mistaken it was one of the creations of Gloria and Bill Gaither. They had good music, with a mixture of some light CCM as well as a collection of short personal testimonies on it. I remember one particular testimony by a lady singer, whose daughter later joined her on the platform. Their story was so moving that I couldn’t watch them without having tears in my eyes. Here is the story, as I recall it.The lady singer, whose name I forgot, related her story somewhat like this. She was a young college student when she was raped off campus. She was so desperate that she did not know what to do. She did not hear of abortion, so she hid her condition as long as she could. Her parents wanted her to get rid of the baby, for they felt stigmatized by it. Nevertheless when the time of delivery came their daughter gave birth to a beautiful baby girl, of which they promptly put up for adoption. They considered it a total disgrace to have a baby out of wedlock and they wanted to preserve the appearance of properness in the life of their daughter. They never have seen the baby again.
Their daughter completed college, eventually got married to a respectable young man and the two established a family. Since she was endowed with many talents she became a singer. Somewhere along the line she met the Lord and she got saved. From that moment on her heart was yearning to know what happened to her baby of long ago. But could not get herself to the point of searching for her lost baby. The quilt in her heart was weighing her down. Years passed by in this manner.
In the mean while a Christian couple, who adopted her baby, raised up their daughter in the fear of the Lord. They loved her as she would be their very own. The young girl grew up loving the Lord and never tasting the world. Later she married to an impressionable young man and the two were blessed by the Lord with children of their own. The adopted parents, however, let her know that she was given to them as a gift by God and that somewhere out there she must have a biological mother. They left it in her hands if she wanted to search for her biological mother. Years passed by and while she would never leave her adopted parents, for she loved them as if they were her own flesh and blood, her heart was yearning to know who was her biological mother. So one day she started to research adoption papers and followed the trails. Soon she had to hire a detective agency to do the final zeroing in on the location of her Mom.
When she learned about who her Mom was, she was contemplating on how she would approach her. So she did what most in similar circumstances would do. She called her biological Mother up on the phone. She introduced herself by giving a short bio, then she told her Mom that she understood why things happened to her the way it did. But she reassured her Mom that it was in the sovereign plan of God that things happened the way they did, and as a result she learned to know and love the Lord as her Savior. She then was wondering if her Mom would be willing to meet her and see her children as well. I don’t think I have to tell you the response from the other side of the phone. There was a lot of crying, but the two eventually set a date to meet. In the mean while her Mom told her that she was saved also, and would it happen to her now she would never abandon her baby girl.
As the lady singer was relating this story to the audience, she asked a young lady in the front rows to come up to the platform and stand beside her. It was her biological daughter of whom she abandoned many years ago. The two hugged and kissed, and then it was the daughter’s turn to give her testimony about her family and the love of the Lord. The most moving part was when she thanked her Mom for not having an abortion many years before, but carrying her to full term and giving her life. She was telling of her adoptive parents, their love of her and of the Lord, and that she is today because of what they instilled in her heart. And she said that she was so fortunate to have two sets of Moms, and how much she loved them both for what they have given her. I can tell you that there was not a dry pair of eyes in the audience. Sorry for not remembering the name of the lady singer, but I thought you may appreciate the story.
Needless to say that I for one am against abortion, and abortion clinics, but I also maintain, of what has been voiced here on this thread, that judgment belongs to the Lord. I believe that when Jesus whipped the money exchangers out of the temple, He exercised His divine prerogative and not His human judgment. So, when we hear of individuals who take upon themselves to punish the abortionist doctors and clinics, they are in fact taking matters into their hands of which only God and His instrument here on earth is ordained to do (which is the government). And when the government fails to regulate these matters in a way, which would be in the sovereign will of the Lord, then the Lord interevenes and punishes the wayward nation - of which you can be traced down throughout human history. Well, that was my two-cent’s worth on this subject. And, oh yes, I do not approve of the media's coverage of this whole matter for the reasons many of you quoted.
[ December 08, 2001: Message edited by: Barnabas ]
Thank you, Baranabas. As an adoptive mom, that story has a special meaning for me. I would wish the biological mothers of my children and my children will also someday be able to be together in the Lord and meet here on earth as well. I cannot imagine the hole in the heart caused by giving up a child and always wondering. So many times I have wanted to shout or write across some distance, "Your son/daughter is wonderful! Thank you so much for letting him/her live! Thank you for my family!" Someday I would like to say that in person.
It is a fact that every single one of my children, including my only 'homegrown' one, "should" have been aborted according to doctors and current wisdom.
I thank God constantly that they weren't.
It is a fact that every single one of my children, including my only 'homegrown' one, "should" have been aborted according to doctors and current wisdom.
I thank God constantly that they weren't.
Pennsylvania Jim
New Member
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Helen:
We can't stop the way the world is going, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What do you mean by that?
We can't stop the way the world is going, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What do you mean by that?
Pennsylvania Jim
New Member
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phillip:
So, explain to me exactly what you would do if you had an abortion doctor with you in a hotel room and you had two items: a Bible and a gun? Assume there will be no earthly punishment for your actions no matter what you do in the room.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Disclaimer: I'm not advocating killing of "doctors".
NOW:
I think you phrased the question in a "softball" way. Forgive me for not directly answering it, but I'd like to rephrase it and put it back to you:
What would you do if you were in an abortion clinic with a gun and a bible, and right in front of you is a "doctor" who in ten seconds is going to suck the brains out af a crying baby?
So, explain to me exactly what you would do if you had an abortion doctor with you in a hotel room and you had two items: a Bible and a gun? Assume there will be no earthly punishment for your actions no matter what you do in the room.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Disclaimer: I'm not advocating killing of "doctors".
NOW:
I think you phrased the question in a "softball" way. Forgive me for not directly answering it, but I'd like to rephrase it and put it back to you:
What would you do if you were in an abortion clinic with a gun and a bible, and right in front of you is a "doctor" who in ten seconds is going to suck the brains out af a crying baby?
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JAMES2:
Phillip:
women that have been brain-washed by the school system since they were little girls that child-sacrifice is a "right", to stand in the street and yell at them.
to do about it?
Education from Godly parents and the Holy Spirit seems to be the answer. In 1 cor. 2:14 it says the things of the spirit CANNOT be understood unless enlightened by the Spirit. I find very few, if any, truly born again women that are not repulsed by child sacrifice ( I use the term child sacrifice, because that is what it is). For a woman (little girl) to refuse to think through the issue, and babble about "my body," "my reproductive rights," my "choice" is disheartening to say the least, but until that person is born again they just won't get it, no matter how much reasoning we do. It seems to be an issue that God has enlightened you about or Satan has blinded you about. I don't see any middle ground.
I am especially skeptical about politicians, "Supreme" Court justices, and people in power to do anything that is right. You vote for someone because they are pro life, then they get in office and vote the opposite or get on the court and vote the opposite from what they said.
Thank God that He is Sovereign and in control.
James2
[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
AMEN, Brother!
I think so much of our morale decay starts at home and that fits right into your statement.
Phillip:
women that have been brain-washed by the school system since they were little girls that child-sacrifice is a "right", to stand in the street and yell at them.
to do about it?
Education from Godly parents and the Holy Spirit seems to be the answer. In 1 cor. 2:14 it says the things of the spirit CANNOT be understood unless enlightened by the Spirit. I find very few, if any, truly born again women that are not repulsed by child sacrifice ( I use the term child sacrifice, because that is what it is). For a woman (little girl) to refuse to think through the issue, and babble about "my body," "my reproductive rights," my "choice" is disheartening to say the least, but until that person is born again they just won't get it, no matter how much reasoning we do. It seems to be an issue that God has enlightened you about or Satan has blinded you about. I don't see any middle ground.
I am especially skeptical about politicians, "Supreme" Court justices, and people in power to do anything that is right. You vote for someone because they are pro life, then they get in office and vote the opposite or get on the court and vote the opposite from what they said.
Thank God that He is Sovereign and in control.
James2
[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
AMEN, Brother!
I think so much of our morale decay starts at home and that fits right into your statement.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JAMES2:
Phillip:
women that have been brain-washed by the school system since they were little girls that child-sacrifice is a "right", to stand in the street and yell at them.
to do about it?
Education from Godly parents and the Holy Spirit seems to be the answer. In 1 cor. 2:14 it says the things of the spirit CANNOT be understood unless enlightened by the Spirit. I find very few, if any, truly born again women that are not repulsed by child sacrifice ( I use the term child sacrifice, because that is what it is). For a woman (little girl) to refuse to think through the issue, and babble about "my body," "my reproductive rights," my "choice" is disheartening to say the least, but until that person is born again they just won't get it, no matter how much reasoning we do. It seems to be an issue that God has enlightened you about or Satan has blinded you about. I don't see any middle ground.
I am especially skeptical about politicians, "Supreme" Court justices, and people in power to do anything that is right. You vote for someone because they are pro life, then they get in office and vote the opposite or get on the court and vote the opposite from what they said.
Thank God that He is Sovereign and in control.
James2
[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
AMEN, Brother!
I think so much of our morale decay starts at home and that fits right into your statement.
Phillip:
women that have been brain-washed by the school system since they were little girls that child-sacrifice is a "right", to stand in the street and yell at them.
to do about it?
Education from Godly parents and the Holy Spirit seems to be the answer. In 1 cor. 2:14 it says the things of the spirit CANNOT be understood unless enlightened by the Spirit. I find very few, if any, truly born again women that are not repulsed by child sacrifice ( I use the term child sacrifice, because that is what it is). For a woman (little girl) to refuse to think through the issue, and babble about "my body," "my reproductive rights," my "choice" is disheartening to say the least, but until that person is born again they just won't get it, no matter how much reasoning we do. It seems to be an issue that God has enlightened you about or Satan has blinded you about. I don't see any middle ground.
I am especially skeptical about politicians, "Supreme" Court justices, and people in power to do anything that is right. You vote for someone because they are pro life, then they get in office and vote the opposite or get on the court and vote the opposite from what they said.
Thank God that He is Sovereign and in control.
James2
[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
AMEN, Brother!
I think so much of our morale decay starts at home and that fits right into your statement.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pennsylvania Jim:
Disclaimer: I'm not advocating killing of "doctors".
NOW:
I think you phrased the question in a "softball" way. Forgive me for not directly answering it, but I'd like to rephrase it and put it back to you:
What would you do if you were in an abortion clinic with a gun and a bible, and right in front of you is a "doctor" who in ten seconds is going to suck the brains out af a crying baby?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ouch! You turned this into a hardball game real quick.
Boy, did I get myself into a pickle with my hypothetical questions. That one requires some REAL soul searching, I know what I would want to do, but is that what Jesus would want me to do? Good answer and I've got to think about this one. I am going to ask my pastor (who I get along with very well) tomorrow, cold turkey and see what his first response is. I know his first response if it was one of HIS relatives. He has already made it clear that if it came between protecting his family with a gun or letting them get killed---well, sorry the family comes first.
Good point! I would like to see some other people respond to this one.
[ December 09, 2001: Message edited by: Phillip ]
Disclaimer: I'm not advocating killing of "doctors".
NOW:
I think you phrased the question in a "softball" way. Forgive me for not directly answering it, but I'd like to rephrase it and put it back to you:
What would you do if you were in an abortion clinic with a gun and a bible, and right in front of you is a "doctor" who in ten seconds is going to suck the brains out af a crying baby?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ouch! You turned this into a hardball game real quick.
Boy, did I get myself into a pickle with my hypothetical questions. That one requires some REAL soul searching, I know what I would want to do, but is that what Jesus would want me to do? Good answer and I've got to think about this one. I am going to ask my pastor (who I get along with very well) tomorrow, cold turkey and see what his first response is. I know his first response if it was one of HIS relatives. He has already made it clear that if it came between protecting his family with a gun or letting them get killed---well, sorry the family comes first.
Good point! I would like to see some other people respond to this one.
[ December 09, 2001: Message edited by: Phillip ]
Barnabas H.
<b>Oldtimer</b>
Let me answer this one for you Phillip. I would grab the gun and force the doctor to abandone his procedure. Then I would find a suitable Christian home where they would be more than happy to adopt the child. There, it's not that difficult to solve the problem! Nobody got hurt in the process, and a life was saved - the baby's.
I wrote: We can't stop the way the world is going.
Pennsylvania Jim asked, "What do you mean by that?"
In the Bible we read about the end days. I think we are there now. Israel was made a nation in 1948 and took Jerusalem in 1967. If 'this generation will not pass until all these things are fulfilled' (Matthew 24:34, from memory, which might have a couple of words as synonyms...), and if, in the last days, people will be lovers of themselves, etc., as Paul told Timothy, then that is not something we can change. It is what we are seeing.
Nor are we ever told to change the world or that we have that responsibility. We are told to bear witness to the truth, and to hang on until He comes.
My daughter's high school is almost literally swimming in drugs now and the suicides are about two or three a year. By her estimation at least 20% of the kids have a sexually transmitted diseases, and at least have are active sexually. In the meantime, required reading involves "Of Mice and Men,", "Lord of the Flies," "Animal Farm," etc.
We live in a nice area. That means in most families both parents work, most families have two or more cars, kids own their own massive entertainment centers and inform their parents when they will be home. Not many parents are married to the original partners and kids get transferred like baggage.
It's not just international terrorism, it's the quiet terror of what is happening in homes and schools all over now.
We can impact a few, and I try very hard to do that. But my biggest prayer now is, "Come, Lord Jesus."
Pennsylvania Jim asked, "What do you mean by that?"
In the Bible we read about the end days. I think we are there now. Israel was made a nation in 1948 and took Jerusalem in 1967. If 'this generation will not pass until all these things are fulfilled' (Matthew 24:34, from memory, which might have a couple of words as synonyms...), and if, in the last days, people will be lovers of themselves, etc., as Paul told Timothy, then that is not something we can change. It is what we are seeing.
Nor are we ever told to change the world or that we have that responsibility. We are told to bear witness to the truth, and to hang on until He comes.
My daughter's high school is almost literally swimming in drugs now and the suicides are about two or three a year. By her estimation at least 20% of the kids have a sexually transmitted diseases, and at least have are active sexually. In the meantime, required reading involves "Of Mice and Men,", "Lord of the Flies," "Animal Farm," etc.
We live in a nice area. That means in most families both parents work, most families have two or more cars, kids own their own massive entertainment centers and inform their parents when they will be home. Not many parents are married to the original partners and kids get transferred like baggage.
It's not just international terrorism, it's the quiet terror of what is happening in homes and schools all over now.
We can impact a few, and I try very hard to do that. But my biggest prayer now is, "Come, Lord Jesus."
Phillip:
That's the trouble with hypothetical questions. They are too hypothetical. Number one, I wouldn't be in a child-sacrifice facility in the first place. If I were, I would physically restrain the murderer so that he couldn't sacrifice the child to the god of this system of things. I'm being hypothetical and assuming that since I'm 6'1'' and 225 pounds I could discourage the lunatic from proceeding.
I get your point tho, and philosphically, I would say that the END DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS. No killing to stop killing in the name of teaching people not to kill.
James2
That's the trouble with hypothetical questions. They are too hypothetical. Number one, I wouldn't be in a child-sacrifice facility in the first place. If I were, I would physically restrain the murderer so that he couldn't sacrifice the child to the god of this system of things. I'm being hypothetical and assuming that since I'm 6'1'' and 225 pounds I could discourage the lunatic from proceeding.
I get your point tho, and philosphically, I would say that the END DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS. No killing to stop killing in the name of teaching people not to kill.
James2
Pennsylvania Jim
New Member
So, James2, you do not think it is right to defend an victim from a murderer by deadly force?
Then do you not think that police should have guns? Should we disband our military? Would you not even defend your own family?
I'm not trying to be a wiseguy, but I'm trying to get at the heart of this and to so so we must have morally consistent positions.
edited for spelling
[ December 09, 2001: Message edited by: Pennsylvania Jim ]
Then do you not think that police should have guns? Should we disband our military? Would you not even defend your own family?
I'm not trying to be a wiseguy, but I'm trying to get at the heart of this and to so so we must have morally consistent positions.
edited for spelling
[ December 09, 2001: Message edited by: Pennsylvania Jim ]
Pennsylvania Jim
New Member
Helen, I'm glad that George Washington, Patrick Henry, and Daniel webster did not share your interpretation of the implications of eschatology.
Or Jonas Salk.
Or Abraham Lincoln.
Or the Pilgrims.
Or Thomas Edison.
Or Eli Whitney.
Or George F. Handel.
Or J.S. Bach.
Or Winston Churchill.
Or my parents and grandparents.
Or the few Christians today who are getting their hands dirty for the rest of us so that if the Lord tarries our grandchildren and great grandchildren might stand a chance of seeing the freedoms that we so selfishly enjoy.
Sing louder
PA Jim
Or Jonas Salk.
Or Abraham Lincoln.
Or the Pilgrims.
Or Thomas Edison.
Or Eli Whitney.
Or George F. Handel.
Or J.S. Bach.
Or Winston Churchill.
Or my parents and grandparents.
Or the few Christians today who are getting their hands dirty for the rest of us so that if the Lord tarries our grandchildren and great grandchildren might stand a chance of seeing the freedoms that we so selfishly enjoy.
Sing louder
PA Jim
Pennsylvania Jim:
I don't really think we get anywhere dealing with hypothetical questions. Speaking personally, I would be very, very careful about using deadly force. Hypothetically speaking, in most cases there are other solutions. Would I go into an abortion clinic and kill a doctor to stop an abortion? Of course I wouldn't. Like I said in another post, the end does not justify the means.
I'm wondering where the doctrine of self-defense using deadly force can be found in the the teachings of Jesus.
Where do you see that a Christian, a follower of the Prince of Peace, should be in an organization that has as it's stated goal, to swear blind obedience to a secular government, a general, a "superior"officer, etc, to kill on command? It has been debated for centuries and I'm still not convinced that a Christian has any business taking part in any type of killing on command.
Do you think obedience to Christ or obedience to a secular, fallen, depraved, sinful nation is where your supreme duty lies?
Christ said to pray for those that persecute you, turn the other cheek, follow his example, when he was reviled he did not fight back. I admit, it is a tough question. For me, I try to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, and pray for those that persecute me, instead of involving myself in the murder of one of God's creatures.
I do understand your position tho. But for me, I pray that I'm not put into that type of position to start with. Other's deal with it differently.
How is the Christian any different than the Muslim or the lost if they think that it is ok to kill other human beings in self-defense? So someone jumps out from behind a tree and kills me. Oh well, I guess I see Jesus face to face a little sooner than I expected. That's not bad. That's good.
James2
[ December 10, 2001: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]
I don't really think we get anywhere dealing with hypothetical questions. Speaking personally, I would be very, very careful about using deadly force. Hypothetically speaking, in most cases there are other solutions. Would I go into an abortion clinic and kill a doctor to stop an abortion? Of course I wouldn't. Like I said in another post, the end does not justify the means.
I'm wondering where the doctrine of self-defense using deadly force can be found in the the teachings of Jesus.
Where do you see that a Christian, a follower of the Prince of Peace, should be in an organization that has as it's stated goal, to swear blind obedience to a secular government, a general, a "superior"officer, etc, to kill on command? It has been debated for centuries and I'm still not convinced that a Christian has any business taking part in any type of killing on command.
Do you think obedience to Christ or obedience to a secular, fallen, depraved, sinful nation is where your supreme duty lies?
Christ said to pray for those that persecute you, turn the other cheek, follow his example, when he was reviled he did not fight back. I admit, it is a tough question. For me, I try to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, and pray for those that persecute me, instead of involving myself in the murder of one of God's creatures.
I do understand your position tho. But for me, I pray that I'm not put into that type of position to start with. Other's deal with it differently.
How is the Christian any different than the Muslim or the lost if they think that it is ok to kill other human beings in self-defense? So someone jumps out from behind a tree and kills me. Oh well, I guess I see Jesus face to face a little sooner than I expected. That's not bad. That's good.
James2
[ December 10, 2001: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]
Jim, I think you misunderstood my meaning. I do everything I know to do for the world I live in. I have raised my children to do the same. My husband and I are using our savings to put a Zimbabwean medical student through medical school in Australia, as his scholarship monies collapsed when their financial system did. I'd like to think we are helping a whole country through him, as he will go back and open up a clinic there in a couple of years when he is through.
But that does not change the fact that the world is not going to reverse its direction. That is not just biblical prophecy, that is what we are seeing all around us.
It does not give anyone any excuse NOT to love and care for his neighbor or not to be a glove on the hand of Christ operating in the world. But, on the other hand, we are also told to see the signs of the times. Discernment about what is happening now is not a sin... nor is it a crime against humanity. If anything, it should spur those of us who do see what is happening to exert every effort to do all we can while there is still time.
But that does not change the fact that the world is not going to reverse its direction. That is not just biblical prophecy, that is what we are seeing all around us.
It does not give anyone any excuse NOT to love and care for his neighbor or not to be a glove on the hand of Christ operating in the world. But, on the other hand, we are also told to see the signs of the times. Discernment about what is happening now is not a sin... nor is it a crime against humanity. If anything, it should spur those of us who do see what is happening to exert every effort to do all we can while there is still time.