Abortion is acceptable...

[BigBossman]

I've been blasted on this before, but I'll say it again. I oppose abortion & believe that abortion is murder.

However, I will say that in the very rare case that the mother has complications where a decision has to be made, then yes, she needs to decide whether to risk her life to have her baby or make the hard decision to go through with the abortion. What I mean by "Complication" is when her life is legitimately in danger, not her life is always in danger when having the baby.

If my wife or daughter was raped & was pregnant as a result of the attacker, I would strongly encourage her to not go through with an abortion, but instead give the baby up for adoption. If she chose to keep the baby, I would be okay with that too & would be happy to help raise the child as my own.

Rape is not only a physical attack, but it is also psychological too. I could understand her not wanting to have the baby. But I would seriously stress having the baby & giving it up for adoption rather than aborting it.

 

[Matt Black]

I voted for "if the life of the mother was in danger". The question was "is it acceptable" which is not the same as "is it desirable?" I would also qualify my vote in the same way as some others have here by saying that the danger to the mother's life was real and serious and that abortion was the only way to save her life.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

In a previous post I mentioned saving the mother in regard to treating cancer, treating the cancer with the result of the death of the unborn baby is unfortunate, but also a non-willed action.

But then there's another medical condition that can result, although rare, that not even our today's medical technology can correct and that's tubal or ectopic pregnancy, where the egg plants itself in the thin walls of the fallopian tube, which left alone will cause a rupture of the tube and internal hemorrhage into her abdomen , which will result in the death of the baby and sometimes the mother as well.

So the hard choice is, the mother waits it out and once the rupture occurs (which will eventually), the baby dies and emergency surgery on the mother in an attempt to save her life. Even if the baby's not dead yet, the resulting surgery will surely ensure the baby's death.

Or through laparoscopes, the surgeon repares the damage to the tube and as a result has to remove the embryo...it's a simple proceedure and the mother's life is saved.

But today's medical advancements we have ultrasound which can detect this condition very early, BUT there's no medical technology available that can be used to transplant the embryo into the uterus.

So what does the mother do? I pray I never find myself in this position with a pregnant wife.

In XC
-

 

[canadyjd]

Originally Posted by canadyjd

....we simply cannot volunteer someone else to give their life for another human being, even their own children...

How sad..................

How so?

Do you believe we should volunteer people to give their lives for someone else? For their children? Do you have the wisdom to make such a judgment on behalf of another?

You might say, "I'd take their place if I could".... but you can't. And you really can't say what you would do in their place, only what you hope you would do.

peace to youraying:

 

[Revmitchell]

How so?

Do you believe we should volunteer people to give their lives for someone else? For their children? Do you have the wisdom to make such a judgment on behalf of another?

You might say, "I'd take their place if I could".... but you can't. And you really can't say what you would do in their place, only what you hope you would do.

peace to youraying:

Sounds all nice and neat until you consider that we have no business planning to murder anyone.

 

[canadyjd]

Sounds all nice and neat until you consider that we have no business planning to murder anyone.

Nothing nice and neat about it. That's why we don't have any business making the decision for someone else.

There a lot of people who need liver tranplants in America. Are you going to volunteer to give up your liver to save someone's life?

"I can't live without my liver", you might say.

Yeh, but "we" have decided you should give your life for another, since "we" know how to make the decision better than you.

You don't want to die to give someone else a chance to live?

To quote Revmitchell;

"How sad..........."

peace to youraying:

 

[Marcia]

In a previous post I mentioned saving the mother in regard to treating cancer, treating the cancer with the result of the death of the unborn baby is unfortunate, but also a non-willed action.

But then there's another medical condition that can result, although rare, that not even our today's medical technology can correct and that's tubal or ectopic pregnancy, where the egg plants itself in the thin walls of the fallopian tube, which left alone will cause a rupture of the tube and internal hemorrhage into her abdomen , which will result in the death of the baby and sometimes the mother as well.

So the hard choice is, the mother waits it out and once the rupture occurs (which will eventually), the baby dies and emergency surgery on the mother in an attempt to save her life. Even if the baby's not dead yet, the resulting surgery will surely ensure the baby's death.

Or through laparoscopes, the surgeon repares the damage to the tube and as a result has to remove the embryo...it's a simple proceedure and the mother's life is saved.

But today's medical advancements we have ultrasound which can detect this condition very early, BUT there's no medical technology available that can be used to transplant the embryo into the uterus.

So what does the mother do? I pray I never find myself in this position with a pregnant wife.

In XC
-

I didn't even consider ectopic pregnancies because as far as I know, the baby cannot survive this at all. So there's really no choice here. I hope people are not thinking to let the mother and baby die!

As for abortion to save the life of the mother, it would be extremely rare these days if it even exists. And when I voted for that, I meant with the mother in imminent danger of losing her life, not just the possibility that she might not make it or that she's risking her life. For example, a woman with a heart condition is told carrying the pregnancy to term might endanger her. This is not what I am talking about. She could still be okay.

I actually can't think of any situation today where the mother would have to die for the baby, because even ectopic pregnancies don't allow for this since the baby can't be saved.

 

[matt wade]

I didn't even consider ectopic pregnancies because as far as I know, the baby cannot survive this at all. So there's really no choice here. I hope people are not thinking to let the mother and baby die!

That's not true. A baby can survive, and they have.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7427907.stm

 

[annsni]

That's not true. A baby can survive, and they have.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7427907.stm

That is one case out of millions of pregnancies. Can you find another incidence of a child and mother surviving an ectopic pregnancy?

 

[matt wade]

That is one case out of millions of pregnancies. Can you find another incidence of a child and mother surviving an ectopic pregnancy?

Sure...

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2003/08/11/c_section030811.html

 

[Marcia]

That's not true. A baby can survive, and they have.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7427907.stm

The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists said the odds of survival in such a pregnancy were "no more than one in a million".

This was way against the odds. Almost certain chances of massive bleeding for the mother and a strong chance of death for the mother if pregnancy continues plus almost certain death for the baby in ectopic pregnancies.

In cases such as this that I know about, the pain was unbearable for the mother. No one could have continued functioning with such pain. It's normally an emergency situation.

 

[matt wade]

This was way against the odds.

God is Good and odds don't matter to Him.

 

[canadyjd]

From the story:

With an ectopic pregnancy, the embryo can rupture the fallopian tube, leading to massive internal bleeding - and possibly death - for the mother. Just 1-2% of all pregnancies are ectopic, and in 95% of those cases the egg is fertilised in the fallopian tubes on its way to the uterus. In 0.5% of cases, including this one, the baby grows inside the ovary itself.

I haven't ever heard of a baby growing in the fallopian tube to go beyond a few weeks.

It would be beyond compassionless to demand a woman with an ectopic pregnacy to attempt to carry to the baby to term. She would risk her own life, as well as risk the ability to have children in the future.

peace to youraying:

 

[annsni]

OK - Neither of these pregnancies were in the fallopian tube. THAT is what we're talking about. Not a pregnancy outside of the reproductive organs (I HAVE heard of those pregnancies surviving but it needs to be VERY carefully monitored.

 

[annsni]

Ectopic pregnancies occur in 1 of 10,000 pregnancies. 99+%, the babies die. There have only been a dozen incidences of babies surviving an ectopic pregnancy and none have been in the fallopian tube - the site of 95% of ectopic pregnancies.

People have also survived falling out of an airplane but I wouldn't necessarily decide that God will save me if I take that leap.

 

[sag38]

Life begins at conception, is very precious to God, and we must be very careful and seeking of God in any decisions that we make concerning the taking of a child's life in his/her mother's womb. Fact is, the vast, overwhelming majority, of abortions have no connection to medical complications except that the mother doesn't want to pregnant.

So in order to justify abortion and in order to justify that which they know in their heart to be wrong they use these arguments.

1. The health of the mother: And yes, if her life is in direct danger then I would be for an abortion. But, that is very rare.
2. Rape or incest: The rape or incest may have been wrong but the child conceived is no accident. I know of several children and adults who were conceived when their mother was raped. And, they are wonderful people. Thank God they are here today and that their mom made such a brave and wonderful decision.
3. When does like really begin?: This doesn't even deserve a comment. The use of this argument only displays the sheer ignorance and depravity of the person using it.

 

[Revmitchell]

Nothing nice and neat about it. That's why we don't have any business making the decision for someone else.

There a lot of people who need liver tranplants in America. Are you going to volunteer to give up your liver to save someone's life?

"I can't live without my liver", you might say.

Yeh, but "we" have decided you should give your life for another, since "we" know how to make the decision better than you.

You don't want to die to give someone else a chance to live?

To quote Revmitchell;

peace to youraying:

apples and refrigerators

 

[canadyjd]

apples and refrigerators

It is outrageous for you to call a woman a murderer when she has absolutely no other choices but to die or suffer irreversable damage to her reproductive system (after emergency surgery to save her life) if she doesn't terminate a tubal pregnacy which has 0% chance of making it to term.

In the case of a tubal pregancy, the baby is killing the mother. Even if it is unintentional, the baby is still killing the mother.

Don't you believe a person has the right to defend themselves from someone who is killing them?

peace to youraying:

 

[Revmitchell]

It is outrageous for you to call a woman a murderer when she has absolutely no other choices but to die or suffer irreversable damage to her reproductive system (after emergency surgery to save her life) if she doesn't terminate a tubal pregnacy which has 0% chance of making it to term.

In the case of a tubal pregancy, the baby is killing the mother. Even if it is unintentional, the baby is still killing the mother.

Don't you believe a person has the right to defend themselves from someone who is killing them?

peace to youraying:

This is the typical pro-abortion argument. Setting aside the tubal pregnancy as the child could never last anyway, Defending yourself against someone who wants to harm or murder you is not the same thing as a difficult pregnancy. My position is both the child and the mother have equal weight and importance. Sad one human life is held higher than the other.

 

[canadyjd]

This is the typical pro-abortion argument.

Really? I thought the "typical" pro-abortion argument had something to do with "choice", not "life".

Setting aside the tubal pregnancy as the child could never last anyway....

The question is about tubal pregnacy. Is the mother a murderer if she aborts that baby growing in the fallopian tube? That is what you have called her. A murderer. Is that what you believe?

Do you think it is her duty as a Christian to wait for the tube to explode, then have emergency surgery to attempt to save her life?

Defending yourself against someone who wants to harm or murder you is not the same thing as a difficult pregnancy.

We are not talking about a "difficult" pregancy. We are talking about an impossible pregnacy, one that has 0% chance to come to term.

And yes, even though it is unintentional, the baby is killing the mother by growing in the fallopian tube.

My position is both the child and the mother have equal weight and importance. Sad one human life is held higher than the other.

That is not your position. Your position is the baby has more importance than the mother, even though he/she will kill the mother, and the mother should risk death, rather than have an abortion that will save her life.

Your position is that the mother and her doctor are murderers is they remove a baby growing in the fallopian tubes.

Sad you cannot see the difference, and I'm still waiting for scripture verses from you to show a woman is commanded die with her child in such cases.

peace to youraying: