Abortion

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by Artimaeus:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by post-it:
Get a grip, there are no human babies being killed in America. Next, you'll be saying babies are being murdered by condoms.

Grip got, there was no such thing as slavery, the German holocaust didn't happen, and Elvis is still alive. </font>[/QUOTE]Look, I don't understand the confusion. America never had a ship land on the moon. It was Hollywood filming those events.

I don't think I like your sarcasm. It appears as though you were joking when you said Elvis is still alive. I just saw him at the basketball game the other night.

Don't even get me started about King Kong.

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by Don:

"Nature aborts it" is akin to saying "God aborted it"; God has that right. You and I don't.

Don, Do you really think God goes around aborting babies because he allowed the mother to catch a cold?

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Post it to follow you on the Adam comparison I believe that in Adam's case he was formed but totally lifeless until God breathed life into him. If you agree with this then take a little test for me, find a pregnant lady who is about to deliver and place your hand on her stomach. What you will find is not a lifeless form but a moving living human being, even before breath enters it's lungs.
Murph

 

[Helen]

I had to take Chris in for some blood tests today. While we were waiting in the waiting room, I picked up a magazine -- I'm not sure which one (Good Housekeeping???) and read an article about a little girl born at 4 1/2 months, weighing 11 ounces. She lived. She is a year old now, or close to it. She managed to breathe a little squeak when she came out, even though the artery from the heart to the lungs was not even completely closed yet! She not only made it, but she does not appear to have any neurological or physical damage -- she is just incredibly tiny still for her age.

So at least back that up to 4 1/2 months, post it.

In the meantime, as I told you on that long thread, you are completely twisting what the Hebrew means which is translated 'breath of life.' It is NOT breathing which is being referred to, but the giving of a soul to man -- that which is personality and unique to each individual. The word translated 'breath of life' is 'nephesh' -- which you already know because I already told you. And 'nephesh' also translates into soul. There is no reference to the idea of breathing in the word! So your reference to not being alive until you breathe is completely bizarre, going against both Bible and biology.

And I know from that long thread before that you know better than what you are saying here again. As I recall, you even apologized at one point for some of what you said. So soon we forget?

 

[Artimaeus]

Originally posted by post-it:
Look people, the view I have taken is what scripture defines as life which is at first breath. Everyone of you have taken man's (science) view of life and death concerning abortion. All the evidence in the Bible leads one to conclude that abortion is murder only at the time that a baby could take a breath... which is about 6 months. Before that even the priests in the OT preformed abortions.

Refer to my old thread from last year on this subject for a verse by verse argument that supports this view over 300 posts in that one thread as I recall.

Personally, I think abortions is wrong, but scripture says differetly. Even nature aborts early on for things as simple as a common cold in the mother to be. Claiming murder is going too far.

You think abortion is wrong and scripture says differently. Interesting, apparently you don't get your view of right and wrong from scripture.

Nowhere does the Bible even hint that life begins at 6 months. Adam is not a good example of what it takes to be alive because he was unique. God breathed life into him (not at 6 months). God has not breathed life into any of the rest of us so I guess we aren't really alive either.

Matt 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. (KJV)

Luke 2:5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.

Notice that scripture says (and thus God says) that this glob of tissue you refer to is called a child.

Nature is not a person who makes decisions anymore than a rock rolling downhill makes a decision to hit a tree.

I, for one, do not say that all abortion is murder. 99.99% are. I state that all abortion is the taking of at least one human life and that the same rules apply to unborn babies as apply to post born babies. If taking a human life is justifiable it is not murder. War, justifiable homicide, self defense, etc.

I seriously doubt that any OT priests performed abortions and if you find some reference that seems to indicate that, I am VERY sure that your interpretation is unreasonable.

Exod 21 and Luke 1 have already been quoted to give God's view of the unborn. Of Course, you have already stated that you have no problem disagreeing with scripture.

 

[Bro. James Reed]

Bro. post-it, please read what I wrote earlier from Exodus and Luke. I think they will show you what the Lord really intended.

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by Helen:

you are completely twisting what the Hebrew means which is translated 'breath of life.' It is NOT breathing which is being referred to, but the giving of a soul to man -- that which is personality and unique to each individual. The word translated 'breath of life' is 'nephesh' -- which you already know because I already told you. And 'nephesh' also translates into soul. There is no reference to the idea of breathing in the word!

My research says the word is Nshamah but nephesh is the same thing, meaning breath as in vital breath. While there are only 2 verses where it is synonymous with "spirit", that just isn't so in the other 20 or so references in the OT. Run a search yourself and you will find it means breath in the nostril as in breathing. Yes the spirit is also found in the nostrils, but one doesn't exist without the other. Further in other verses including the same book (Genesis) it means to be without it results in death of the person. Over and over the meaning is clear. I believe it is you who have twisted the meaning of the word.

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by Artimaeus:

I seriously doubt that any OT priests performed abortions and if you find some reference that seems to indicate that, I am VERY sure that your interpretation is unreasonable.

See Numbers 5:13-28
Bitters = common herb remedy used even today to induce miscarriage. Searching the internet you will find several articles on which herbs induce miscarriage and that they fall under the category of "Bitters".

Overview of the verses.
Woman has sex with another, husband takes her to priests. Priest forces her to drink Bitters (herb drink) if she is with child, then her belly will swell and something drops between her thighs, if she is not guilty, nothing happens and she can still conceive at a future time.

This is a combination punishment/test by the priests, it eliminates a bastard child or proves the woman did not have sex.

 

[dianetavegia]

Post it said:

it eliminates a bastard child or proves the woman did not have sex.

How awful! First of all, your ignorance is showing. Many women have sex and don't conceive so this certainly would not prove anything.

Also, the term bastard, when refering to a precious and innocent child is insulting at least! We legally adopted our grandson that our daughter gave birth to at 19. He's a lovely child with a heart of gold. He strives to not disappoint God. And yet you would shun him and have called him a bastard.

You are a very ugly hearted man. That which proceeds out of your mouth proves it.

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
How awful! First of all, your ignorance is showing. Many women have sex and don't conceive so this certainly would not prove anything.

Also, the term bastard, when referring to a precious and innocent child is insulting at least! We legally adopted our grandson that our daughter gave birth to at 19. He's a lovely child with a heart of gold. He strives to not disappoint God. And yet you would shun him and have called him a bastard.

You are a very ugly hearted man. That which proceeds out of your mouth proves it. [/QB]

It too have an adopted son. And I would never call him a bastard. I think you missed the context. I was speaking in the context of what the priest believed. What we know for sure is that bastard children were not accepted and they looked upon them in such a way in that time. So that is the term I used.

as far as my ignorance on sex...
THEY thought that if the stomach didn't swell and miscarry, she must not have had sex or at least that's what they wanted the husband to think.


Your personal attack on me doesn't address what scripture is saying. You might want to refocus now and address the facts instead.

Like I said before, I personally don't like what I'm reading but I also don't like seeing my Christian Brothers and Sisters making Murderer's out of women who chose to have an abortion by claiming that GOD SAID IT. He didn't!, the modern Church did and everyone just parrots the false accusation.

 

[Abiyah]

Post-it --

Your research is clearly wrong. Nephesh is
nephesh; it is the soul, the life. Unless that child
is dead in the womb, the child has nephesh.

 

[PJ]

Overview of the verses:
Woman has sex with another, husband takes her to priests. Priest forces her to drink Bitters (herb drink) if she is with child, then her belly will swell and something drops between her thighs, if she is not guilty, nothing happens and she can still conceive at a future time.

This is a combination punishment/test by the priests, it eliminates a bastard child or proves the woman did not have sex.

Numbers 5 explains that the woman's thighs will rot and she will undergo suffering. However, I don't read where anything "drops between her thighs." In my interpretation, the priest wanted the woman to "become accursed among her people" (Numbers 5:27). "The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin " (Numbers 5:31).

Either way it's interpreted, ABORTION IS MURDER.
PJ

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by SheEagle9/11:
Johnv, please. Go. Bye.

That's kind of like the study that says cats can't see in color. Have any of them ever looked through a cat's eyes? Scientists can really be dumb sometimes. Give them enough time and maybe they'll catch up with what God said in His Word a long time ago.

It's that kind of belittling mentality that makes people fearful of discussing the subject. What I posted is in no way contradictory to God's Word. Nor is it a pro-choice endorsement. It's simply a statement of fact. A fetus isn't capable of feeling pain at that point. That doesn't mean, as someone else said, that a fetus is any more or less fully human than if it didn't feel pain.

I'm not sure if your comment is trying to paint me as a pro-abortion, or if you're just trying be arguementative.

 

[LadyEagle]

Johnv, neither. I was razzing you.

 

[Johnv]

Trying to get a little less fiery here, but let's assume that abortion is generally morally wrong.

What do we do in cases of ectopic pregnancy? The fetus is perfectly healthy, yet it is aborted.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by SheEagle9/11:
Johnv, neither. I was razzing you.

Okay, then I apologize.

Please understand that I am not defending abortion here, but I also don't wish to ignore the realities involving reproduction.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by post-it:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Helen:

you are completely twisting what the Hebrew means which is translated 'breath of life.' It is NOT breathing which is being referred to, but the giving of a soul to man -- that which is personality and unique to each individual. The word translated 'breath of life' is 'nephesh' -- which you already know because I already told you. And 'nephesh' also translates into soul. There is no reference to the idea of breathing in the word!

My research says the word is Nshamah but nephesh is the same thing, meaning breath as in vital breath. While there are only 2 verses where it is synonymous with "spirit", that just isn't so in the other 20 or so references in the OT. Run a search yourself and you will find it means breath in the nostril as in breathing. Yes the spirit is also found in the nostrils, but one doesn't exist without the other. Further in other verses including the same book (Genesis) it means to be without it results in death of the person. Over and over the meaning is clear. I believe it is you who have twisted the meaning of the word. </font>[/QUOTE]Post-it,

Your research is incorrect. The word Nephesh does refer to the soul. The Hebrew word ruach is the word for Spirit or breath.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[LandonL]

THEY thought that if the stomach didn't swell and miscarry, she must not have had sex or at least that's what they wanted the husband to think.

So are you saying that the test instituted by God was not a true test or unfaithfulness? That he just did it to make the jealous husband happy? That kind of interpretation makes God out to be a liar and shows that your interpretation of Scripture is suspect because you obviously don't believe it to be inerrant if God is a liar.

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:

Your research is incorrect. The word Nephesh does refer to the soul. The Hebrew word ruach is the word for Spirit or breath.

Joseph Botwinick

[/QB]

Looks like everyone has his own version of the word. Can we get a scholar of sorts into this thread to show us why we are getting so many words and meanings? I'm open to hearing from an expert in Hebrew.

 

[Bro. James Reed]

Look - why won't anyone address the scriptural evidence that I presented? Read Exodus 21: 22-25 and Luke 1: 41-44. PLEASE!

I've posted it twice now and have yet to receive a response.

God clearly demonstrates in Exodus that it is murder. He also shows that an unborn child already has a soul in Luke.

Please, please, please read it!

Bro. James