Abortion

[post-it]

Some people may react harshly to my interpretation of scripture. I have known people who turned their back on family members because they had an abortion, or they were homosexual, only to hear someone like myself say that scripture supports or "could" support the very thing that drove a wedge in their relationship.

They then hate or refuse to hear this side since they have now invested so heavily in ending something so precious as a family tie. I hope that no one here has done that or advised other to do that only to find out that God may have indeed accepted the act as part of being Christian with no repentance needed.

Those that over-react to what I believe scripture to say may need to examine their own hearts in these matters. This should be a debate on abortion as per scripture and not a personal attack on me. When you can't refer to scripture or some type of argument on the subject matter, you should avoid posting.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Diane - I agree that Post-It crossed a line with me with that comment. That denigrated the work of the Holy Spirit and reduced the miraculous (according to the Bible) into the mundane. Don't agree with that.

Such a belief system is far from my position, but at the same time we have great variety of positions within the "baptist" umbrella. Where do we put limits on soul liberty?

 

[post-it]

I personally am against abortion at any time and for any reason. But it's not because it is murder. It's not because scripture say abortion is wrong because it doesn't.

I think preventing a future life so close to living is not the right choice to make. But it isn't wrong to abort either, abortions is just another choice.

What I have been arguing is what scripture says, not what I believe personally about the subject.

 

[Dan Todd]

I am PRO-LIFE . I believe that the PRO-LIFE movement needs to retake possession of the prefix " PRO ." The pro-abortion group was successful in changing our image to a negative - when they call us the anti-choice crowd and call themselves pro-choice.

I am convinced that there is no such thing as pro-choice - that radical lib group almost always chooses abortion - that makes them pro-abortion.

Have you ever wondered why the pro-abortion group:
1. Thinks is wrong to kill a baby seal - but its all right to kill a human baby?
2. Thinks is wrong to take turtle eggs (you'll end up in jail if caught) - but its all right to kill a human baby?
3. Thinks you are a murderer if you kill a deer - but its all right to kill a human baby?
4. Thinks we should keep the Ted Bundy's of this world in jail - but its all right to kill a human baby?
5. Thinks its a crime to cut down a red wood - but its all right to kill a human baby?

 

[post-it]

Diane, I have not blasphemed the Lord. Read Luke again and you will see that the Holy Spirit entered Elizabeth, no mention was made that the Holy Spirit entered John. John leaped at the hearing of the "voice" of Mary. The women here just confirmed that the leap was nothing special. I have never said that John was not who the Lord wanted him to be, just that nothing happened to John in the womb. And if it did, then John's leaping was a special case that you can't use to show that life begins in the womb. I know this is heavy logic at work and some won't be able to follow it, but you can't have it both ways. Either he leaped because he was a special case which supports my argument, or he leaped with no real effect from the Holy Spirit which would negate your argument that life can begin in the womb of every mother. Read the scripture again before you throw the B word at me.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Post-it,

Will you now cite your sources of "Experts" in the research you have done in the Hebrew language? Let me guess. It isn't some propaganda pamphlet from planned parenthood is it?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by post-it:
Come on, you don't really think it is mass murder do you?

No I don't think it is mass murder. I think it is a mass of individual murders that is being legitimized by warped reasoning like you engage in.

We will do what we can to stop it.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by post-it:


What I have been arguing is what scripture says, not what I believe personally about the subject.

This is a radically false statement. You have squeezed scripture into your presuppositions about how to define a living human being.

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Post-it,

Will you now cite your sources of "Experts" in the research you have done in the Hebrew language? Let me guess. It isn't some propaganda pamphlet from planned parenthood is it?

Joseph Botwinick

Joseph, believe it or not, I have never consulted any secular material anything on the subject that is pro-abortion, I don't have a clue as to what their arguments are and frankly don't care since they don't believe in the Bible. I have only search the Bible with my various software packages including Strong's Literal translations etc.
I could be completely wrong, but you could also be completely wrong if you haven't really examined the Bible verses in regards to the words and verses we have been talking about.

I don't put any stock in the Liberal Planned Parenthood since they have an agenda to push, I decide for myself based on scripture and prayer. At the same time I don't parrot the Church (mostly from the Catholic Church pushed onto us) position on abortion.

Everything is tested in scripture then I slug it out on this board to see how right or wrong I might have been. Prayer is what keeps me going and not folding on issues until I really feel that I have been barking up the wrong tree. And I have made several major changes by others on this board in some of my basic beliefs of these "on the fence" beliefs.

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by Scott J:
This is a radically false statement. You have squeezed scripture into your presuppositions about how to define a living human being. [/QB]

Please show us scripture that defines life and when life begins. I wouldn't want to just push the verses I have found, I invite you to use yours.

 

[rlvaughn]

Luke 1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. 14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. 15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. 39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda; 40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. 41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. 45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

 

[Helen]

"so close to living"?

So it must not be alive yet. That means it is inanimate material, or dead.

right....yeah....

It's moving, it's reacting, it's metabolizing, it's excreting, it's developing.

But it's not alive.

Welcome to The Mad Hatter's Tea Party. Are you pouring, post-it?

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

So, Post-it,

The extent of your research about the Hebrew language is the Strong's Concordance? I think you might be well served to do more research.

BTW, I was joking about planned parenthood source. Didn't you see my little guy laughing uncontrollably at the end of the post? Here it is again...

Joseph Botwinick

PS: Did you even read my post where I cited mt expert sources and showed you pretty conclusively what the different Hebrew words mean?

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by post-it:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
This is a radically false statement. You have squeezed scripture into your presuppositions about how to define a living human being.

Please show us scripture that defines life and when life begins. I wouldn't want to just push the verses I have found, I invite you to use yours. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Awhile back I went on with you for 20+ pages. There is no amount of scripture, science, or reason that will change your mind. Your rule is that your presuppositions must remain constant. Everything else is flexible including scripture, fact, morality, and truth.

If I recall correctly, on several occasions you effectively redefined words to make them mean what you needed them to. Your treatment of Luke 1 is indicative of your willingness to twist scripture.

My purpose for confronting you here is to warn these folks who don't know you before they engage you in another ridiculous, semantical argument.

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by rlvaughn:
he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

I think this verse is the main point that you are trying to stand on that shows John being filled with the Holy Spirit long before birth. Let's look at the key word that your argument falls on. It is the word "from" the womb. The Greek word is ek. Reading further down the chapter we find the word again in verse 35 associated with the english word "born". Ek means "From" but more in the tense of "out of" or "born from". Clearly it is speaking in terms of the birth point he was filled with the Spirit as is given by God through the Breath in the nostrils.

If this scripture had meant differently it would have use a word like "while" or "during" the time in the womb not "from out of", but it did not.

 

[Artimaeus]

Y'all remember the rich young ruler who came to Jesus and when Jesus told him the truth he rejected what Jesus said. Jesus didn't run after him and try and convince him of the soundness of His doctrine. Our responsibility is to present the truth and let the Holy Spirit take over from there. The truth has been presented in this thread. The Bible calls the preborn baby a child, etc. If someone rejects scripture we can do no more. I am outta here (on this thread)

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by Scott J:
There is no amount of scripture, science, or reason that will change your mind.

So far you have not stated any scripture or showed me where the transalation I read is wrong. Any reason or scripture is welcomed and will help support your view instead of popular vote amoung board members. Remember it was popular vote that got Roe vs Wade passed and you see how right they were.

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
So, Post-it,

Did you even read my post where I cited mt expert sources and showed you pretty conclusively what the different Hebrew words mean?

Thanks, I missed that post. Sorry. Well your experts and general meanings of breath don't help they way you posted them.

You have to look at how they are used in which book and for what reason. If you just take a general definition, you will most likely be wrong. I take the word and see how it is used again by the same author hopefully in the same chapter or close to the chapter or at least in the same book. After that I look at other similar words that are used in different context by the same author.

This is how I arrived at what Breath means in context to life and why it doesn't mean the same as Spirit in these passages.

KJV Job 27:3
3. All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

KJV Genesis 2:7
7. And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


KJV Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God ... breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Now compare that to

KJV Genesis 7:21-22
21. And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22. All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

In these verses even animals like fowl have "Breath" used in the same context as for Adam.

Connecting the dots of all the breath of life verses throughout scripture seems to indicate the following common items:

1.God's spirit (the giver of spirit and life)
2.Breath (life essence which comes from God)
3.Nostrils (and the means of gaining God's spirit)
4.Life (as when breath is present in the nostrils)

[ April 10, 2003, 01:12 AM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

[rlvaughn]

Originally posted by post-it:
I think this verse is the main point that you are trying to stand on...The Greek word is ek. Reading further down the chapter we find the word again in verse 35 associated with the english word "born". Ek means "From" but more in the tense of "out of" or "born from". Clearly it is speaking in terms of the birth point he was filled with the Spirit as is given by God through the Breath in the nostrils.

Your first mistake is assuming the purpose of my posting Luke 1:15ff and assuming what I am "trying to stand on." My reason for the posting was to give the scriptures that were being referenced, but not quoted; and then to highlight the relevant passages. Your second mistake is to assume that the translation of "ek" is as clear-cut as you make it out to be. It is not quite that simple. The KJV alone translates that one Greek word by several different English words, including "of", "from", "out of", "by", "on", "with", and a number of others. It is unclear enough to various translators and/or translating committees that they have not only used "from," but also "while yet" and "from birth" in Luke 1:15. Either of these two last types of translations probably to some degree reflect the "bias" of the translators. Below are some different examples of how Greek scholars, with more skill in the language than you or I, have chosen to render the passage. Some of these versions will footnote the other possible meaning. Failure to consider this could reveal intent to find only that which you desire to find.

And he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while still in his mother's womb. - Holman Christian Standard Bible

and he will be full of the Spirit of God from his birth. - The Bible in Basic English

He will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born. - GOD'S WORD Translation

and even from birth, he will be filled with the Holy Spirit. - New Century Version

even before his birth he will be filled with the Holy Spirit. - New Revised Standard Version

and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even before his birth. - New Living Translation

and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb. - New American Standard Bible

From his very birth he will be filled with the Holy Spirit - Good News Translation

This passage is not necessarily a watershed for either side. But, translated either way, it provides no problem for pro-life. Even if John were only filled with the Holy Ghost from the time of his birth, it does nothing to deny he was alive while yet in the womb. If John were filled with the Holy Ghost while yet in the womb, one must admit that at least THIS baby was a living soul in the womb. That admission is more than any pro-abortionist will allow.

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by Artimaeus:
Y'all remember the rich young ruler who came to Jesus and when Jesus told him the truth he rejected what Jesus said. Jesus didn't run after him and try and convince him of the soundness of His doctrine. Our responsibility is to present the truth and let the Holy Spirit take over from there. The truth has been presented in this thread. The Bible calls the preborn baby a child, etc. If someone rejects scripture we can do no more. I am outta here (on this thread)

You are right, Artimaeus. The truth has been presented. Post-it will not change. He even backtracked from some progress he seemed to have made before. And we have presented enough for anyone who is simply reading to know that that baby is a living human being from conception on.

That's enough. Thank you for the reminder.