Abortion

[post-it]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:

Post-it: Do animals have this same breath of life?

Joseph: I find no evidence of this in these verses and would say no. We are made in the image of God, animals are not.

[/QB]

Then how do you explain the same breath being found in animals and man in the Noah chapter.It appears this is the same breath you have described as a living soul, spirit etc, not just "air".


Genesis 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.Genesis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

 

[Gina B]

But since Kelly is a forgiven Christian and doesn't think abortion is a sin, isn't she already forgiven even if it was a sin and done in ignorance, therefore your admonishment is in vain and totally uncalled for?

What if Kelly thinks something you are doing is a sin when you don't truly believe it is, like cursing her to hell for doing something she doesn't believe is a sin even after careful examination?

I don't think things are quite so black and white as you seem to think they are.

Kelly is a big girl, she can speak for herself. BTW I didn't "curse her to hell". ROFL Get a grip.

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by Gina:
BTW I didn't "curse her to hell". ROFL Get a grip. [/QB]

So you do believe she sinned but won't be held responsible for it if she didn't believe it was a sin, right? Did I follow your reasoning correctly on that since you don't think she will go to hell for it?

 

[Gina B]

I'm not going to speak about Kelly with you. Like I said, she is a big girl and can speak for herself in reply to me if she so chooses.
I did not say a word about hell or heaven and Kelly going to either, I did not say Kelly was forgiven or unforgiven, I didn't say Kelly was a Christian or a non-Christian, nor will I do so. That is between Kelly and God, and if she wants my opinion on her spiritual condition I suppose she'll ask for it, but I doubt she will and I find it odd that you're asking. I gave my thoughts on things the bible calls sin: sexual impurity and murder. I didn't give my thoughts on Kelly.
Gina

 

[post-it]

Gina, it was just that your post and her post were a microcosm of what this Thread is really about in the big picture. I mean, I'm saying that God doesn't say one way or the other that it is wrong to abort and therefore, to me it isn't a sin. And on your side, you believe it is.

But since we are both Christians does it really matter to our eternal soul if I'm right or wrong on this issue and the same applies to your side of the argument.

You and I will go through life believing certain things are sin and others aren't, while they may well be or aren't. But we are covered anyway. So those opposed to my views can't very well say that I'm sinning or not. And I can't very well say if they are sinning or not.

This of course, only applies where there is scriptural and Biblical evidence or the lack of it to support each view.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Originally posted by post-it:

I don't think things are quite so black and white as you seem to think they are.

That is a basic problem in the world today. The Bible was written in black and white because God wanted people to understand exactly what He meant.

There are too many Christians living in a 'gray area' where they put whatever interpretation on any verse that makes them feel comfortable and enables them to continue in their sin.

Why would God bother to write a book for us to live by knowing we would not understand what He was saying and continually argue over what He meant?

"God is NOT the author of confusion."

Blessings,
Sue

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
The Bible was written in black and white because God wanted people to understand exactly what He meant.

This is why we have over 20,000 versions (denominations) of gray roaming the earth. He was very unclear on many important issues. Of course, that could be because it was "man's" misunderstanding or lack of ability to write what God was saying, caused by original sin. Thus, we have the word of God containing a margin of error. Even our own Baptist scholars admit that there is error contained throughout the scripture, and we don't even have an original version of anything that we can count on. Our final interpretation comes from the Holy Spirit, in our own hearts. So when scripture is unclear or in error, we must seek the Holy Spirit to get the final. This of course is going to result in me saying life begins at first breath and you saying it begins at conception, and the Catholics saying using condoms is a sin. There is noting Black and White except that Jesus the Christ died for our sins period.

Why would God bother to write a book for us to live by knowing we would not understand what He was saying and continually argue over what He meant?

When you figure out why he allows abortion, then you will know why he would give us a book with so much gray area.

"God is NOT the author of confusion."

I thought God created everything. Isn't confusion a mental process that allows us to seek further answers? Surely this is a good thing, not something I would want to give up. Was't it King James who was confused about the Bible and had 50 scholars rewrite it so he could be less confused?
Doesn't confusion lead most people to "faith"?

God IS the author of confusion and all else that is good for man. This old saying is kept alive by preachers that are brainwashing people into accepting their version of scripture by telling people "you won't be confused if you just believe me and my interpretation". Don't fall for it, find a better pastor, one that doesn't have all the answers, one that is a little confused, a human.

 

[Helen]

Post-it, all you are doing is creating confusion yourself, and probably inside yourself, playing with words and definitions to try to come up with some kind of backing for what you have already chosen to believe. There are a FEW more things in the Bible that are reasonably clear apart from the fact that Jesus died for us!

Quite frankly, the kind of arguments you continue presenting over and over are exactly the kind we are warned to stay away from in the Bible. But maybe that's not clear to you, either?

Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value and only ruins those who listen. 2 Timothy 2:14b

Those who listen to you, Post-it, are thinking "oh, then abortion isn't all that bad" and you may be, yourself, responsible for a few of them with your words. It won't matter then if you are personally against them or not, will it?

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Helen:
Post-it, all you are doing is creating confusion yourself, and probably inside yourself, playing with words and definitions to try to come up with some kind of backing for what you have already chosen to believe. There are a FEW more things in the Bible that are reasonably clear apart from the fact that Jesus died for us!

If you look back on page five, you will see this is exactly what I anticipated Post-It would do. You cannot debate this subject with him because he will not debate it honestly. The only constant he accepts is his presuppositions. Everything else is malleable.

Redefining words and phrases (especially scripture) to mean something they don't mean is one of his primary tactics.

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by Helen:


Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value and only ruins those who listen. 2 Timothy 2:14b

Quarreling and interpereting scripture are two different things. I have been discussing and debating what scripture says or doesn't say on abortion. I don't believe I have gotten angry with anyone here. I guess this subject is something you would like to keep everyone in the dark. If you classify discussion and debate on scripture as quarreling, then how will scholars feed their families? How will the individual determine which denomination to join? How can you ever ask a question and then have a different opinion.

Quarreling is not debating when there is no anger or contempt involved. I can't say that about a few others who have responded, but most here have not quarreled in this thread.

 

[Helen]

Oh, come on! The Christians here are furious with your presentation of abortion not being anti-biblical! Have you been blind to that? Your point of view and presentation of it are a blatent offense to many of us who know and acknowledge that

1. The baby in the womb is a living human baby (and is referred to as such in the Bible, as you have already been shown)

2. The premeditated taking of a human life is murder.

3. Therefore, the abortion of that baby is murder.

Period. While we are fighting (one step up from quarreling!) to present the preciousness and sanctity of each human life given by God, you are dancing around saying the child is not really alive and therefore that taking it and burning or dismembering it and suctioning out its pieces is really fine biblically.

That is not just garbage, but poisonous garbage. Manure can be used as fertilizer later -- the poison you are presenting will always be poison and will, literally, ruin those who pay attention to it and ingest it.

I feel like one of those old-time preachers, and want to shout "Repent!" at you. I'm a staid old English-bred American and this does not come 'naturally' to me at all, but I will say right out to you that you need to repent before God for the poison you have been spewing out here.

 

[post-it]

You're just upset because scripture doesn't support your argument in a clear way. It is true that you will find more support in scripture that we should give away our money and property so as not to be wealthy, than scripture that says not to abort a baby. Still, no one really follows that one either. So why do you think people will follow something that the Bible is silent on. It wasn't like they didn't have women aborting babies in Biblical times.

I guess the bigger question is why did the Catholic Church start this whole abortion and birth prevention is a sin thing to begin with? More Money or More Members or both?

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Ok. I am done here. This seems like a futile conversation to me sense Post-it doesn't want to see the truth in this case.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
[qb] Ok. I am done here. This seems like a futile conversation to me sense Post-it doesn't want to see the truth in this case.

Joseph Botwinick

post-it
Then how do you explain the same breath being found in animals and man in the Noah chapter.It appears this is the same breath you have described as a living soul, spirit etc, not just "air".


Genesis 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.Genesis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

You never addressed my last question found in a prior post earlier. Do you opt out of the discussion before you have finished answering the question on the "breath of Life?"

 

[Gina B]

Post-it, out of curiosity how much respect would you give to an aborted baby? Do you figure as long as it isn't human you can make face cream out of it and let your wife or daughter use it for nicer looking skin, or use it to make make-up?
WHY are you against it when you think there's nothing wrong with it and you strongly promote that there's nothing wrong with it? Isn't that a bit hypocritical? "There's nothing wrong with this but I'm gonna say it's wrong"
You don't make any sense.
"Let no man deceive you with vain words".
You sound like either you've been deceived or you are being deceiving. Why is that?
Gina

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Post-it,

I stated my opinion about abortion. I did the research on the two verses you asked me to do. Now you want to go somewhere else I am guessing because my research didn't give you what you wanted. I am not going to waste my time researching the whole Bible for you when you are not willing to see the truth on this matter. If you want to do more research on this, learn the Hebrew language, get some reputable Hebrew lexicons and grammers like I did and do it yourself. I am finished here.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by Gina:
Post-it, out of curiosity .
WHY are you against it.... when you think there's nothing wrong with it and you strongly promote that there's nothing wrong with it? Isn't that a bit hypocritical? "There's nothing wrong with this but I'm gonna say it's wrong"
You don't make any sense.
Why is that?
Gina

I think killing people like children in Iraq is wrong, but something that must be allowed in protecting the rights of others. It's not so different with abortion, I don't agree that it is right, but neither is it wrong to protect the right of women over their own body.

I live in Texas, a death penalty State. We kill people here when they violate the rights of others by killing them with chemicals. I'm for that remedy but still think it not right to take life which God grants people. It's wrong, but it is a needed evil in order to protect the rights of others.

Scripture supports the death penalty and war, unless you wish it not to, then you have ample verses to oppose it.

Is it confusing, not when you see that original sin has brought evil into the world and it will take a certain amount of evil to deal with it. The world is still under a curse of sin that calls for many things that don't seem fair or right, but must be including abortion, war, and revenge by the State on behalf of families who lost loved ones to murderers.

You can't be for the war and against abortion, both take innocent life, according to science. So if the Bible supports war, then it supports the basics argument of pro-choice.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Originally posted by post-it: It's not so different with abortion, I don't agree that it is right, but neither is it wrong to protect the right of women over their own body.

You don't agree it's right, but neither is it wrong? What exactly does THAT mean?

It is either right or it's wrong!

Get off the fence and take a stand one way or the other!

If you stand for nothing...you'll fall for anything!

Sue

 

[christfollower55]

so what is the issue now. It's hard to get what ya'll are tryin to say sometimes...

GOD BLESS AMERICA

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:

It is either right or it's wrong!

Get off the fence and take a stand one way or the other!

Can you say it was right for us to kill innocents, including our own, in Iraq? No, it was wrong, but it was the right thing to do in protecting the greater rights of many. There is no fence here.