Abortion?

[Debby in Philly]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
Abortion is murder. If outlawed, we have laws that proscribe penalties for murder.

If there is a clear choice - the mother will die if the ectopic pregnancy is not stopped, then the choice will always go with the viable life that is proven, i.e. the mother.

Caveat: Two personal friends have been told by doctors "you have uterine or cervical cancer; you will die if you don't abort the baby". That is NOT a true life/death issue. These friends carried to term, then went on to fight the cancer and are doing quite well. That is just a doctor's educated guess.

If however the baby's development WILL ABSOLUTELY cause the mother's death, I would vote on the side of the mother. Now THAT is rarer than rare.

Does not even Moses' law allow for literal self-defense? But these days that would still be a rare thing.

Abortion for abortion's sake is murder. My only fear for it's total outlawing would be, that in our litigous society, women would then be brought to charges in cases of literal self-defense or miscarriage.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
I wouldn't want to kill those who have abortions anyway. I believe that when God said, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone," he meant any sin. I think when said to forgive 70 times 7 he meant everyone. It is His place to judge the sinner. I would simply try my best to stop the sin.

1. Do you think antbody should be punished for murder? Or should we simply forgive them and let them out of prison? Are you an anarchist?

2. You are correct that it is God's place to judge. However, the Bible addresses the authority of government in the following passage:

4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

Romans 13:4

Since we are a Democratic nation in which the government listens to the will of the people, that gives us the authority to speak up about what we think should happen to convicted murderers.

IMO, all rapists and murderers should be executed.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Artimaeus]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
IMO, all rapists and murderers should be executed.

Didn't the death penalty used to be given for not only rapists and murders but also kidnappers (In the USA)?

I'm OK with that

 

[TexasSky]

Joseph,

It is quite a leap to go from my saying I don't know if I would give the death penalty in that instance to asking if I support trying to overthrow the government.

In regards to the death penality and how it is applied, I am not against it, but I think it should be handed down very selectively, and with a great deal of prayer beforehand. I would probably, were I on a jury, vote for it in cases of someone who habitually broke the law and intentionally took the life of others. I would probably vote against it in regards to crimes of passion where an individual does not seem to be likely to do repeat the offense.

 

[av1611jim]

Is abortion murder?
Yes.
Should it be made illegal; what would be an appropriate penalty?
I think conspiracy to commit murder should carry the death penalty.
Making exceptions for the woman/child would only give carte blanche for some (perhaps many) women/children to seek out abortionists anyway.
Providing a conspiracy penalty would "drive home" the seriousness of the pregnant persons' decisions.

Clarifier; by refering to a "woman/child" I mean for example a teen (child) who will not control her sexual desires. This would be called conspiracy to commit negligent homicide or some similar thing. Of course; this is all highly speculative and there would have to be considerable discussion at the legislative level to define all the nuances of this series of conspiratorial acts to commit murder. Is the boy/man culpable? I think he would be, in many cases. So then, now we have a conspiracy of at least three persons to take the life of one child. Add the abortionists' assistants and one could see how large the conspiracy would grow.

This is not about just one less than ethical doctor doing an abortion in a clandestine aboratory. It would involve a fairly large conspiracy of persons.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[mioque]

A simple reality check for most of you folks.
As long as there is a demand for abortions, there will be a supply of abortionists. Locking up the doctors will make certain that the abortionists will be amateurs. Executing the abortionists will ensure women will try the do it yourself approach more often.

Now is abortion murder? Sure.
Should abortion cases be treated the same as other murders? Sure.

But let's not pretend that making it illegal will work any better than the war on drugs.
Sometimes problems just won't go away.

 

[Liz Ward]

I don't think so. This is not the 19th century - reliable contraception is available and there is no way that is ever going to be outlawed. There is no stigma on single mothers these days. With the possible exception of herbal "remedies" and large doses of vitamin C, I can't see many women taking the risk these days. Why would they need to?

Liz

 

[mioque]

Liz
"reliable contraception is available and there is no way that is ever going to be outlawed."
"
You assume people will act in a sensible fashion. They won't.

 

[Liz Ward]

Won't they learn, if abortion is outlawed, with very stiff penalties, and getting an abortion abroad is made incredibly difficult?

Liz

 

[mareese]

Of course people won't act in a sensible fashion. That doesn't mean we provide for their stupidity. Drug addicts kill for drug money, corporations steal for wealth, and the majority of parents who abort do so they can live how they want to. In all of these, the innocent are harmed. Abortion is the worst scenario of all of those, as it's guaranteed that one person will die every time.

Providing safer methods of doing wrong is not a good solution or one that should be tolerated.

 

[mioque]

Liz
"Won't they learn"
"
No, that would make sense. Humans don't make sense.
It's not that hard for a 15 year old to get a prescription for the pill in Missisippi, consequences of an unwanted pregnancy are usually unpleasant for teenagers, even more so in their own minds. Lot's of 15 year olds get unintentionally pregnant anyhow.
It's easy to buy condoms in the Netherlands, suffering from a bout of gonorea is apparently extremely painfull even if it's cureable. Treating veneral disease is a booming bussiness overhere anyway.
In Saoudi-Arabia sex outside of marriage carries the deathpenalty for the woman involved. Women get stoned to death overthere for doing it anyway every year.

mareese
"Providing safer methods of doing wrong is not a good solution or one that should be tolerated. "
"
Does that mean that reliable contraception is not going to be available to the unmarried after they elect you president?

 

[mareese]

Mioque, I was referring to your comment about illegal abortions, not contraception.
Having unmarried relationships is not illegal. Murder is.
Were I able to legislate what would happen, murder would be illegal without prejudice to the age and/or locality of the victim. Contraception would retain it's current legal status.

 

[mioque]

mareese
Thanks for clarifying.

"Having unmarried relationships is not illegal. Murder is."
"
These aren't absolutes. In the Netherlands murder is currently legal if the victim is a foetus, or is about to die anyway from a terminal illness (in practice, it is a bit more involved than this, but you get the idea). Unmarried relationships can be illegal overhere, because for example one of the 'participants' is 12 and the other 21.
A few times in history all unmarried relationships have been illegal in certain spots. Contraceptives have been illegal in a lot of places.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by mioque:
A simple reality check for most of you folks.
As long as there is a demand for abortions, there will be a supply of abortionists. Locking up the doctors will make certain that the abortionists will be amateurs. Executing the abortionists will ensure women will try the do it yourself approach more often.

Now is abortion murder? Sure.
Should abortion cases be treated the same as other murders? Sure.

But let's not pretend that making it illegal will work any better than the war on drugs.
Sometimes problems just won't go away.

Interesting...

Murder has been against the law for many centuries now, but people keep murdering. None of us are as stupid as you seem to think we are to think that making it illegal will end it. It will, however, send a clear message that we find it unacceptable as a society and that you will be punished just like all other murderers if we catch you doing it and you are convicted.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[mioque]

Joseph

The reason that murder was declared illegal was the same the world over and it's not to end murdering.
It is to end bloodfeuding.
I murder you Joseph! Your son murders me in revenge! My brother can't find your son to murder so he murders your mother instead! and so it goes...

Making murder illegal has put a stop to all of that.
Now if I murder you, I get arrested tried and locked up for a good number of years and our 2 families won't go around massacring eachother.

Being murdered as part of a bloodfeud is the most common cause of death among adults in cultures without lawenforcement.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by mioque:
Joseph

The reason that murder was declared illegal was the same the world over and it's not to end murdering.
It is to end bloodfeuding.
I murder you Joseph! Your son murders me in revenge! My brother can't find your son to murder so he murders your mother instead! and so it goes...

Making murder illegal has put a stop to all of that.
Now if I murder you, I get arrested tried and locked up for a good number of years and our 2 families won't go around massacring eachother.

Being murdered as part of a bloodfeud is the most common cause of death among adults in cultures without lawenforcement.

Actually,

It hasn't put an end to bloodfueds either. Gangs here in America get even all the time. Certainly, you are not going to argue that we don't have law enforcement, are you? Also, I would argue that murder was made illegal to prevent murder. I think it is clear that most civilized societies find murder unacceptable.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[sea_angel]

My two cents:

Abortion is murder in the ugliest form. Someone who is defenseless has no option of trying to help itself.

Time in jail for offenders.

I think that if asked, most mothers would sacrifice their lives for the lives of their babies if given the choice. We sure are once they are born. I hope to never have to make that decision but if it's me or the baby...let my baby live and be loved and cared for by those who love me knowing that I paid the sacrifice for his/her life.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Sea_angel,

Well said. Unfortunately, that kind of committment and love for one's children is very rare among many mothers these days. What a shame.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[mioque]

"Gangs here in America get even all the time."
"
Imagine a society where everybody is a gangmember, that's the norm in all societies without lawenforcement.

"I think it is clear that most civilized societies find murder unacceptable. "
"
Did I say otherwise?