Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
As I understand Eternal Security our defense depends on the Lord and His ability to keep us for Heaven and eternal life. [John 10; I John 5:18] Check the Greek or a translation.
I agree.
Perseverence of the Saints more or less demands that a Christian endure to the end or otherwise he was never saved. While this is commendable in the eyes of the Lord and something that we should all try to accomplish for His glory and our own benefit, it makes completing the course in faith as a criterion, or a human 'good work.'
Only if you make sanctification by works. Paul clearly did not in Gal 3. He said sanctification was also by grace through faith. I think your confusion here stems from your attempt to "Galatianize" christianity. By that I mean, you think we were saved by grace but any thing after that, such as perseverance, is works. I think everything that comes after that is also grace.
Making salvation pivot on our faithfulness goes against Christ's teaching of our hope being by grace alone. [Ephesians 2:8]
Again, you demonstrate a misunderstanding of calvinism and perseverance. Calvinism does not say that salvation "pivots" on our faithfulness. Our faithfulness is evidence of our salvation, not the cause of it. This is the conversation you should be having with romanbear and Yelsew, both of whom deny eternal security because they believe salvation is maintained by works, if I have understood them.
Larry, you asked for a verse or verses that create a lingeage between faith or belief and Divine election. Romans 5:1 suggests that that sinners are justified through faith. If no one has faith in Jesus there would be no election, because faith is factored into whether or not a person becomes elect. To believe is to be an elect one; to disbelieve and continue in rebellion against God is to say away from His grace and His power and authority to elect a person.
But notice how you fail once again. The question is very simple Ray: Show us from Scripture where election depends on belief. Rom 5:1 does say that we are justified by faith, but justification is not election. You cannot show one verse of Scripture where "faith is factored into whether a person becomes elect." How does one "become elect" when election took place before the beginning of the world when there was as yet no time??? This is but another place where you are refusing, for some reason, to deal with Scripture.
then you talk of "God's authority to elect a person" but insist that "authority" cannot be exercised with belief. Lack of Scripture aside, how does God have "authority to elect" when he can't do it without your belief?? You have placed the "authority" for election in the man who decides to believe so that he can be elect. God only has this authority, in your view, if he can not elect some who have believed. Once again, you are just refusing to see the problems that come and refusing to deal with Scripture.
So I say again:
Show us from Scripture where election is made the result of belief. Alternatively, tell us that Scripture never says that.
Plus, I will not go into all of the Biblical backing about God's foreknowledge. You are acquainted with all of the N.T. and O.T. passages. Because of His giving us a 'free will' He has known throughout eternity past who will respond to His gracious call through the Gospel via the ministry of the Holy Spirit.
But as we have demonstrated you have a faulty understanding of foreknowledge. How can God know the choices of someone who is truly "free" in the sense that you want to define it?? Can God's knowledge be wrong?? Or did God, by his eternal foreknowledge, remove that persons' free will to change their mind during their life? In other words, your view of foreknowledge doesn't help you because it is not what Scripture says about foreknowledge and becuase you end up back at the same place anyway.
The question remains:
Where does Scripture say that election is the result of belief?