About "isms"

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by romanbear:
Larry;
Actually you are wrong completely wrong and have been wrong from the beginning. Calvinism is a man made doctrine and is not supported by scripture. Calvinism is a lie and it has been proven to you, but you would rather believe a lie...
Romanbear

I still believe Scripture when it says that "God chose you for salvation from the beginning." That is all I need. </font>[/QUOTE]Of course God chose you, it is His desire that NONE should perish but that all should have everlasting life. That is why he sent his son so that whosoever would believe in his son would not perish but would live eternally.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Pastor Larry,

With all due respect to you, review our posts and see who explains more Scripture. I have shown repeatedly, as have other brethren, that belief and trust are a Divine requisite before a sinner is regenerated. That is why you own a dogma while we understand theology.

I agree there is a difference between Eternal Security and Perseverence. Eternal Security is true; but not all Christians 'persevere' successfully before being taken to Heaven. {as is taught in the Perseverence of the Saints}

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by romanbear:
The Bible says to me exactly the oppsite of what you claim.

In fact what you claim is only seen by you after you take it and twist it around to suit your purpose.

But what is says "to you" is not the issue. What is says is the issue. People have twisted the Bible to mean all sorts of things. But it only has one meaning. As I say, feel free to start talking about Scripture and open your mind to God's word. As it is, you are content to subject it to your own ideas. Scripture says that God chose us from the beginning for salvation. It is he who did the choosing and for that I am glad.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Of course God chose you, it is His desire that NONE should perish but that all should have everlasting life. That is why he sent his son so that whosoever would believe in his son would not perish but would live eternally.

Then why are you so intent on denying this? Whoever believes has eternal life. On that we agree. What we disagree on is whether or not Eph 1:4 and 2 Thess 2:13 and other passages mean what they say. There, it is not a generic choosing; it never has been.

You have yet to produce this generic "chose everybody" doctrine from Scripture and explain how, if God chose everyone, anyone still goes to hell.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
With all due respect to you, review our posts and see who explains more Scripture.

I have. We do. Your posts, such as this one, are characterized by a lack of Scripture.

I have shown repeatedly, as have other brethren, that belief and trust are a Divine requisite before a sinner is regenerated. That is why you own a dogma while we understand theology.

No you have not shown this from Scripture. What you have shown, and what we agree with, is that faith is a requirement for salvation.

But that was not the topic of conversation and you once again avoided the issue I have put forth. I am asking for for a place where Scripture says that election is the result of belief. I have asked you for that Scripture support repeatedly and you always, like you have here, decline to produce even one verse of Scripture that says that election is the result of belief. Why do you think this is?

but not all Christians 'persevere' successfully before being taken to Heaven. {as is taught in the Perseverence of the Saints}

Col 1:23, the seven churches of Revelation, and a host of other passages disagree with you. Col 1:23 says you have been reconciled "if you continue." If you don't continue, then you have not been reconciled. In a nutshell, that is perseverance of the saints.

 

[Ray Berrian]

As I understand Eternal Security our defense depends on the Lord and His ability to keep us for Heaven and eternal life. [John 10; I John 5:18] Check the Greek or a translation.

Perseverence of the Saints more or less demands that a Christian endure to the end or otherwise he was never saved. While this is commendable in the eyes of the Lord and something that we should all try to accomplish for His glory and our own benefit, it makes completing the course in faith as a criterion, or a human 'good work.' This clearly goes against the statement of God as salvation 'not being of works, lest we should boast.' [Ephesians 2:9] Making salvation pivot on our faithfulness goes against Christ's teaching of our hope being by grace alone. [Ephesians 2:8] To me Perseverence has commingled with it an ultra-Arminian flavor of salvation by faith plus works, while Eternal Security suggest a stronger view of His most excellent grace in our lives and His power and ability to save us forever.

Larry, you asked for a verse or verses that create a lingeage between faith or belief and Divine election. Romans 5:1 suggests that that sinners are justified through faith. If no one has faith in Jesus there would be no election, because faith is factored into whether or not a person becomes elect. To believe is to be an elect one; to disbelieve and continue in rebellion against God is to say away from His grace and His power and authority to elect a person.

Plus, I will not go into all of the Biblical backing about God's foreknowledge. You are acquainted with all of the N.T. and O.T. passages. Because of His giving us a 'free will' He has known throughout eternity past who will respond to His gracious call through the Gospel via the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
As I understand Eternal Security our defense depends on the Lord and His ability to keep us for Heaven and eternal life. [John 10; I John 5:18] Check the Greek or a translation.

I agree.

Perseverence of the Saints more or less demands that a Christian endure to the end or otherwise he was never saved. While this is commendable in the eyes of the Lord and something that we should all try to accomplish for His glory and our own benefit, it makes completing the course in faith as a criterion, or a human 'good work.'

Only if you make sanctification by works. Paul clearly did not in Gal 3. He said sanctification was also by grace through faith. I think your confusion here stems from your attempt to "Galatianize" christianity. By that I mean, you think we were saved by grace but any thing after that, such as perseverance, is works. I think everything that comes after that is also grace.

Making salvation pivot on our faithfulness goes against Christ's teaching of our hope being by grace alone. [Ephesians 2:8]

Again, you demonstrate a misunderstanding of calvinism and perseverance. Calvinism does not say that salvation "pivots" on our faithfulness. Our faithfulness is evidence of our salvation, not the cause of it. This is the conversation you should be having with romanbear and Yelsew, both of whom deny eternal security because they believe salvation is maintained by works, if I have understood them.

Larry, you asked for a verse or verses that create a lingeage between faith or belief and Divine election. Romans 5:1 suggests that that sinners are justified through faith. If no one has faith in Jesus there would be no election, because faith is factored into whether or not a person becomes elect. To believe is to be an elect one; to disbelieve and continue in rebellion against God is to say away from His grace and His power and authority to elect a person.

But notice how you fail once again. The question is very simple Ray: Show us from Scripture where election depends on belief. Rom 5:1 does say that we are justified by faith, but justification is not election. You cannot show one verse of Scripture where "faith is factored into whether a person becomes elect." How does one "become elect" when election took place before the beginning of the world when there was as yet no time??? This is but another place where you are refusing, for some reason, to deal with Scripture.

then you talk of "God's authority to elect a person" but insist that "authority" cannot be exercised with belief. Lack of Scripture aside, how does God have "authority to elect" when he can't do it without your belief?? You have placed the "authority" for election in the man who decides to believe so that he can be elect. God only has this authority, in your view, if he can not elect some who have believed. Once again, you are just refusing to see the problems that come and refusing to deal with Scripture.

So I say again: Show us from Scripture where election is made the result of belief. Alternatively, tell us that Scripture never says that.

Plus, I will not go into all of the Biblical backing about God's foreknowledge. You are acquainted with all of the N.T. and O.T. passages. Because of His giving us a 'free will' He has known throughout eternity past who will respond to His gracious call through the Gospel via the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

But as we have demonstrated you have a faulty understanding of foreknowledge. How can God know the choices of someone who is truly "free" in the sense that you want to define it?? Can God's knowledge be wrong?? Or did God, by his eternal foreknowledge, remove that persons' free will to change their mind during their life? In other words, your view of foreknowledge doesn't help you because it is not what Scripture says about foreknowledge and becuase you end up back at the same place anyway.

The question remains: Where does Scripture say that election is the result of belief?

 

[Ray Berrian]

God's knowledge of everything is perfect; we both agree on this point.

The acute problem with Calvinism is that your brethren equate 'foreknowledge' and 'predestination' as being the same. Case in point . . . [Romans 8:29] Dr. Paul Enns says, 'foreknowledge' (Greek) {proginosko} means to know beforehand. Foreknow "emphasizes not mere forsight but an active relationship between the one who foreknows and those who are foreknown.' Page 106 in his book, "The Moody Handbook of Theology."

We teach and believe that God only predestines to Heaven, those who He has eternally known to accept the Gospel truth that Jesus cleanses sinners from all iniquity. Any other view allows a terrible error that God has sovereignly selected saints because of His power without even looking at the faith of the people of God. God's truth stands forever. All sinners are ' . . . justified by faith . . . ' Without a personal belief and trust in Christ there is no salvation imputed to sinners. [Romans 4:5-6]

Every sinner is personally responsible to God. That's why He died for all human beings. [I John 2:2]

 

[Ray Berrian]

The Greek word, 'prognosis' indicates that God has seen the end result of every persons response or lack thereof, and on this basis He has elected and predestinated both to go to their own places. [Romans 8:29] If this is not true God would have written His Word this way. 'For whom He did predestinate, He in fact predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son . . . '

Don't neglect word study. Words do make a difference.

 

[Ray Berrian]

It is true that some Calvinists have made Perseverence of the Saints a form of Galatianism. You are saved but if you don't keep up your Christian works, we will say you were never saved, as if we should often make this evaluation. Only God knows the human heart. Probably too many Christians are guilty of being 'fruit inspectors.' Not all Christians get to renew their faith and fellowship with God. Some commit the 'sin unto {physical} death.' [I Corinthians 11:30 & I John 5:16] Not all backsliders return to their 'perseverence.' God takes some backslidden Christians home to Heaven early because they are a beggarly example of godliness and a sad witness before the unsaved world.

Perseverence of the Saints is a perfect 'in house example' of how some who believe this doctrine have made it a criterion in depicting who is saved and who is not on their way to Heaven. Pastor Jones says, 'If you don't persevere you were never saved to begin with . . . '