About to hit the fan in the SBC

[Tom Butler]

Another problem is the electronic yahoo cowboy, James White. Deciding SBC doctrine or policy is a serious matter, and not a circus, which is all his show is. He is there for money and ratings. He uses the Mormon church (which I detest) for the ends of those goals. Another entertainer, just like any Hollywood star, has no business setting doctrine. It should be done by reasonable, spiritually mature men of the local churches that belong to the SBC.

There is a vast difference in his approach to say the Mormon church and a person concerned about our faith. He uses Mormons for his personal enrichment and self attention. We oppose the Mormon church because it is a false doctrine about Jesus Christ. To be honest, this guy makes me sick. All he is going to do is flame the fires and drag our churches down. He needs to be treated by a united front of the SBC like yesterday's trash.

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree about James White. He is a great defender of the faith, in my opinion. I suggest listening to the full program at the link supplied by Iconoclast. If you already have, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[mandym]

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree about James White. He is a great defender of the faith, in my opinion. I suggest listening to the full program at the link supplied by Iconoclast. If you already have, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Disappointing. Your posts have always lead me to believe you are well reasoned and patient. James white reflects none of these things. And yes I am very familiar with him.

 

[mandym]

So if you are against the "Statement of the Traditional Southern Baptist Understanding of God's Plan of Salvation", then I wonder if you are against the "Together for the Gospel statement".

 

[Tom Butler]

Disappointing. Your posts have always lead me to believe you are well reasoned and patient. James white reflects none of this things. And yes I am very familiar with him.

James is provocative and not afraid to call them as he sees them. He has a confrontational style, but in terms of his soteriology he's right on point.

 

[Iconoclast]

You people who keep talking about the roots of the Baptist faith have not gone down or back far enough; the first and original Baptists were General Baptists, not Calvinist Baptists. You can't change history -- sorry. I guess it was predestined that the non-Calvinist Baptists would be the original Baptists. :laugh:

Michael,
The roots of the SBC were calvinistic...not general baptists. If you are speaking of the roots of all baptists......John the baptist,and the Apostles were reformed baptists, by practice and teaching:thumbs::thumbs:
It was predestined that the general baptists you speak of did what they could under difficult circumstances, however the biblical teaching is and has always been calvinistic. Like in this current discussion, these people who wrote this misguided article have departed from truth and need to repent.

 

[Iconoclast]

Disappointing. Your posts have always lead me to believe you are well reasoned and patient. James white reflects none of these things. And yes I am very familiar with him.

Mandy,
Perhaps you could arrange a debate with Dr. White and then you could offer correction and show all these things you claim. I do not think you have truth here, or are as familiar with him or his teaching as you suggest.
I do not think you have demonstrated that you can hold up against the cals in here much less DR.White.

 

[saturneptune]

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree about James White. He is a great defender of the faith, in my opinion. I suggest listening to the full program at the link supplied by Iconoclast. If you already have, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I have, including his website. Although I believe in God's sovereignty, I do not believe in making a carnaval out of it. Provocitive phrases over mass media is to draw an audience and ratings, ie increased profit. I do not believe his radio program is a calling of God or ordained by a local church. People who garner the center of attention are not the kind of people the Lord chose in the Bible.

 

[Ed B]

So if you are against the "Statement of the Traditional Southern Baptist Understanding of God's Plan of Salvation", then I wonder if you are against the "Together for the Gospel statement".

I agree with most of the T4G statement and disagree on a few points. I can say the same for the "Statement of the Traditional Southern Baptist Understanding of God's Plan of Salvation". However, there is a key difference in how I react to each document. I did a search in the T4G statement from your URL and I didn't find "SBC" or "Baptist" mentioned even once. That shows me that the undersigned are not trying to define a SBC or Baptist statement even though two of them are SBC members.


The key difference with regard to this current controversy is that the T4G statement doesn't bother me because it doesn't have Baptist, Southern Baptist, or SBC embedded throughout the document and therefore doesn't claim to speak for a majority of Southern Baptist. The very intent of the "Statement of the Traditional Southern Baptist Understanding of God's Plan of Salvation" does, as its title suggests. Their respective purposes are completely different even if their content and style are similar.

 

[saturneptune]

I'm not so certain that it is of little consequence. Does it need to be pointed out that those who have accused the Calvinists within their ranks of contention were the very ones to draft this document and -- as another poster put it -- to "declare war" on them? Is that not, itself, a spirit of contention?

This is an event which should be concerning to all true Christians, regardless of their denominational affiliation, the views on soteriology, or their position along the spectrum of Arminian to Calvinist belief. I cannot believe that the Spirit is the guiding force in crafting a document such as this, for the Spirit tends toward the glorification of the Godhead, the furtherance of God's kingdom, and the exaltation of Christ. Does this document achieve those holy aims? I think not. While I know that this document does not represent the entire SBC membership -- and that the SBC does not represent The Church--, this happening should remind us that Satan is always hard at work seeking to create divisions within the body of Christ. This type of thing, rightly, brings on the reproach of the world, for all the wrong reasons. I believe that those who have supported this document -- clearly not a first-order theological crisis -- would do well to abandon any theological stance and to spend time in the Word and prayer for additional grace.

There would be no conflict if someone with common sense had not written the original letter, and Dr. White's clown show was not inflaming the situation. It takes two to fight. Both sides are equally guilty, and in the final analysis, neither one is theologically pure.

 

[mandym]

Mandy,
Perhaps you could arrange a debate with Dr. White and then you could offer correction and show all these things you claim. I do not think you have truth here, or are as familiar with him or his teaching as you suggest.
I do not think you have demonstrated that you can hold up against the cals in here much less DR.White.

1. It does not surprise me that you would think that anyone could not hold up against "cals" in a debate. Your arrogance would not allow anything else.

2. I have no interest in trying to convince anyone that I can hold up to anything in a debate. It is just not a need within me.

3. I avoid much of the "cal" debates and issues because of the lack of honesty by the use of debate tactics rather than honest discussion.

4. There is no need for me debate James White. It would have no value or prove anything by anyone. Your suggestions of such is childish which is another quality you display quite frequently.

5. James White has no credibility except with "cals" like yourself. He has a poor reputation which is quite similar to Rush Limbaugh. He likes to provoke people. It has been referred to as a "confrontational style" on this board and I believe he does so needlessly. When one's argument is weak then often it gets supported with arrogance and sarcasm. Why would I want to engage such behavior. I do not do it on this board and James White is one of the worst offenders of them all.

 

[Iconoclast]

Why does anyone care about what James White thinks one way or the other about the letter? I mean really, who cares?

Well saturn....alot of us like to check ourselves by seeing what Dr.White, or Al Moheler, or Michael Horton, or these other men say. You evidently do not. That is your right to not look. Some of us also like to read good study books, to see what they offer. You might just not look there either, again that is up to you.

We have the same brain James White does

.

No we do not. We have a brain,yes But my brain does not know greek, hebrew, and arabic, does yours?

God's work is carried out by the local church,

God does work through the local church. I have not seen your local churches view on this however....so i will listen to what others offer.

not James White and his Alpha Omega send me money circus

.

This sounds like you have a personal axe to grind,and you have a jaudiced eye. Does that mean you do not listen or support anything outside your local assembly??? What are you doing on the BB then??? Why should anyone listen to you , using your reasoning????

Why does this person have any say in dictating Southern Baptist policy, is that not the job of Southern Baptist leadership?

This person is not trying to dictate anything. he comments on those who attack the historic faith from any direction.As he points out on the discussion of this attack, those who oppose will not come to the table. You can call in and air your grievences.....I would like to hear that call, so let me know if you are going to. Yes, you and mandy can make a conference call.


.

If there just has to be a fight in the SBC about this, it needs to be dealt with by the leadership in member local churches, not an entertainer

Many of us do not share your point of view on this person or his ministry.Your personal attacks and liable are sad.
I have not seen that in most of your other posts, there must be some behind the scenes issue that contributes to this .

 

[Iconoclast]

I listened to quite a bit of White's audio, it is the same thing he always does, he insults and mocks his opponents. He presents the same classic Calvinist arguments and assumes they are the only correct interpretation of scripture, which I and many others would disagree with. I find his tactics to be arrogant and obnoxious. I really have trouble listening to him, not because he presents sound arguments (I do not believe he does), but because he comes across as obnoxious.

Dr. White completely dismantled the unsound paper that you agreed with and were full of glee over. You cannot comment on anything he actually says...so you attempt to smear him unsucessfully.
Man up- call the show one day and offer your correction.

It is impossible to debate a Calvinist, because they have their own set of terms. A Calvinist for example will often claim the word "all" means only the elect, or certain classes of men, etc...

If the context calls for it they will.Truth demands it.You cannot debate against truth,without bringing truth with you

You cannot really debate with someone who holds a different set of definitions for words that you do. This is why a non-Cal will always appear to lose a debate with a Calvinist to a Calvinist listener, because the Calvinist listener will always agree with the Calvinist definition of a word, when that is not necessarily the correct definition of the word.

Or....they have it correct each time,and it is you and others who try and change the words. The non-cal appears to lose the debate because to anyone looking objectively they ACTUALLY DO LOSE THE DEBATE.....each time:thumbs: Of course you will not like it, as you oppose the teaching .

Another example is the word "death", a non-Cal understands this as separation from God, where a Calvinist has been taught to understand this like physical death and inability

.

Calvinists understand death as seperation.Your point is factually incorrect.

So, it sounds good to a Calvinist listener, but it is not necessarily correct. This is the strength of his debates.[/

James is a skilled debate person, but the verses correctly taught applied and believed win the debate.


Winman....your response is a non response

 

[Iconoclast]

James is provocative and not afraid to call them as he sees them. He has a confrontational style, but in terms of his soteriology he's right on point.

I have been to several of Dr.Whites debates.He is patient and goes out of his way to allow the other person to fully express themselves.
Those who cannot answer Dr.White are reduced to personal slanders, and jealousy. Catholic family radio calls him the "noted" anti catholic".
here we have people directly attacking the historic faith, he responds, andnow these people turn on him


Saturnneptune.....when you write books and give them away for free, fly all over and participate in debates, pay for the lodging,and flights on your own dime.....then I would listen to what you are saying.Until then I would consider this:

6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?

7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?

9 For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

Could you respond to these verses Saturn?

 

[saturneptune]

Many of us do not share your point of view on this person or his ministry.Your personal attacks and liable are sad.
I have not seen that in most of your other posts, there must be some behind the scenes issue that contributes to this .

You really need to reread the posts. Regardless of whether you are Calvinist or non-cal, why do you support the continued inflamming of this situation, when we are here to tell others about Jesus Christ. Isn't there enough problems within our faith to create a new one?

Secondly, you have no idea what I do or do not know about Hebrew, Greek, or Latin. Why does an entertainer capture your imagination. There is no place in Christian ministry for showmanship. It is like Rush Limbaugh, Robert Tilton, and countless others. They are not true spokesmen for the conservative cause, or Christianity, they are entertainers, and their programs are designed to attract an audience.

I am surprised, quite surprised, after reading your previous posts since coming to Baptist Board, and us agreeing on for lack of a better term, Calvinism, that you would be attracted to such a program, or would give it any weight.

Do not get me wrong, the original letter was the cause of this whole thing, and the implications and accusations behind it were mean spirited. There is no evidence that we as Calvinists are plotting to take over the denomination or local churches. I am quite taken aback with all the posts that we have exchanged that you would be so angry at one post.

Is it your practice to stay civil as long as the person is in agreement with you? Maybe it is becasue we have always agreed.

 

[saturneptune]

I have been to several of Dr.Whites debates.He is patient and goes out of his way to allow the other person to fully express themselves.
Those who cannot answer Dr.White are reduced to personal slanders, and jealousy. Catholic family radio calls him the "noted" anti catholic".
here we have people directly attacking the historic faith, he responds, andnow these people turn on him


Saturnneptune.....when you write books and give them away for free, fly all over and participate in debates, pay for the lodging,and flights on your own dime.....then I would listen to what you are saying.Until then I would consider this:


Could you respond to these verses Saturn?

I am about the fifth person you have done that to about the debate challange. Are you on some kind of ego trip to let the world know how much theology you understand? Or have you taken a side trip to the inner workings and mind of God? I have no idea what your vocation is, and really, it does not matter, but I was not called into the ministry. Anytime you would like to swap any present or former job I have had, I would be glad to let you try.

No, I do not have years and years of seminary training, strictly going to church and self reading. One of the people I have learned the most from you are exchanging posts with right now, Tom Butler. He sees me in person several times each week.

As far as responding to the verses, I am sure I could, and if I could not, Tom and our Pastor would help me.

 

[Iconoclast]

You really need to reread the posts. Regardless of whether you are Calvinist or non-cal, why do you support the continued inflamming of this situation, when we are here to tell others about Jesus Christ. Isn't there enough problems within our faith to create a new one?

Secondly, you have no idea what I do or do not know about Hebrew, Greek, or Latin. Why does an entertainer capture your imagination. There is no place in Christian ministry for showmanship. It is like Rush Limbaugh, Robert Tilton, and countless others. They are not true spokesmen for the conservative cause, or Christianity, they are entertainers, and their programs are designed to attract an audience.

I am surprised, quite surprised, after reading your previous posts since coming to Baptist Board, and us agreeing on for lack of a better term, Calvinism, that you would be attracted to such a program, or would give it any weight.

Do not get me wrong, the original letter was the cause of this whole thing, and the implications and accusations behind it were mean spirited. There is no evidence that we as Calvinists are plotting to take over the denomination or local churches. I am quite taken aback with all the posts that we have exchanged that you would be so angry at one post.

Is it your practice to stay civil as long as the person is in agreement with you? Maybe it is becasue we have always agreed.

There was no personal attacks or liability in my post. I have been around at least as long as you, and in a different denomination that everyone was Calvinist for almost half the time. My Dad and Granddad were elders in the church.

What are you trying to do, help the Ariminians?

Brother,

I know we are mostly in agreement on most of what we post here.I am glad we do agree. Like i said, you might have a personal reason for your view against Dr.White.
Let me say this to you. I know Dr.White. He has spoken at our small church several times. In addition,anytime he is anywhere in range of where I am I make the effort to go to the meeting, so you can say i am supportive of him to a large extent.
He has a heart for the gospel,and reaching the lost. He lives a very simple life[ no big house or mansion}...likes to bike ride as his main recreation or hobby.
You have an impression that is not at all accurate. To compare him to Tilton or other heretics is just way out there.
Look saturn......you do not have to like or listen to him.I have not heard or seen anything that he does ,says or teaches that I find fault with. If I did I would say so.
Most of the Pastors, or sources I quote .....those who are still alive I have made iot my buisness to meet them face to face,ask questions, attend meetings, and listen and read hours worth of their sermons and books.
I have no desire to blindly follow anyone. The next time I listen to them will be with the same scrutiny that I have always employed.
We might just not agree here at all. it is okay.....you can voice your dis agreements with me, and I would rather that we keep that kind of open communication and honesty there. if you feel i am in error about this or anything i post....call me on it. and I will offer what i see on it.
i would expect no less from you. I will also reserve the right to call you on what i see to be off just as much as i often speak up with those who are non cals.

 

[saturneptune]

Brother,

I know we are mostly in agreement on most of what we post here.I am glad we do agree. Like i said, you might have a personal reason for your view against Dr.White.
Let me say this to you. I know Dr.White. He has spoken at our small church several times. In addition,anytime he is anywhere in range of where I am I make the effort to go to the meeting, so you can say i am supportive of him to a large extent.
He has a heart for the gospel,and reaching the lost. He lives a very simple life[ no big house or mansion}...likes to bike ride as his main recreation or hobby.
You have an impression that is not at all accurate. To compare him to Tilton or other heretics is just way out there.
Look saturn......you do not have to like or listen to him.I have not heard or seen anything that he does ,says or teaches that I find fault with. If I did I would say so.
Most of the Pastors, or sources I quote .....those who are still alive I have made iot my buisness to meet them face to face,ask questions, attend meetings, and listen and read hours worth of their sermons and books.
I have no desire to blindly follow anyone. The next time I listen to them will be with the same scrutiny that I have always employed.
We might just not agree here at all. it is okay.....you can voice your dis agreements with me, and I would rather that we keep that kind of open communication and honesty there. if you feel i am in error about this or anything i post....call me on it. and I will offer what i see on it.
i would expect no less from you. I will also reserve the right to call you on what i see to be off just as much as i often speak up with those who are non cals.

Well, sorry for the comparisons. Robert Tilton comparison was uncalled for. That guy was a disgrace to our faith. I guess you took me by surprise as we always agree. Lets look at it this way. The original letter is the root cause of all of this. They implied motivations that are not true of Calvinists or those who believe in God's sovereignty. To put it differently that I did before, I wish our side would act civilly and not exchange mean insult for mean insult, expecially from a man of Dr. White's influence (and yes, I have listened to him many times). To me, if he is a reformed leader, it is his job to make our side shine by acting in a gracious manner (unlike me sometimes), and not flame the fires.

Of course I could not debate him, as basically we are on the same side, and could not if we were not.

An example to me of someone who got the message for Reformed out in a calm, civil manner over the air waves, while alive, was D James Kennedy. My Dad actually gave to his ministry.

Again, sorry for the unwarranted comparisons to Robert Tilton. The more I think about it, that was pretty low.

 

[Iconoclast]

Originally Posted by saturneptune
You really need to reread the posts. Regardless of whether you are Calvinist or non-cal, why do you support the continued inflamming of this situation, when we are here to tell others about Jesus Christ. Isn't there enough problems within our faith to create a new one?

Part two.... This is an open attack on the gospel and a large segment of the christian church.
There can be no agreement here in my understanding;
[QUOTECan two walk together, except they be agreed?][/QUOTE]

Quite simply these men have no gospel. I am glad this group has come out of the woodwork and this error is exposed. This directly attacks a large segment of the church.
We have had non cals in our church that we have gotten along with. They did not attack the truth however.
I called this statement as error and hersey before I heard Dr. White. That he confirmed and added to it i find comforting and yet sad at the same time.
Sad because these persons are so off it is to be pitied.
If this error takes root in the SBC...which I do not believe it will...there are too many good SBC brothers who hold the line.....and yet if God allowed this error to take hold , that group will completely apostatize before long as this heretical and scripture denying statement will do great harm to souls.

 

[Iconoclast]

Well, sorry for the comparisons. Robert Tilton comparison was uncalled for. That guy was a disgrace to our faith. I guess you took me by surprise as we always agree. Lets look at it this way. The original letter is the root cause of all of this. They implied motivations that are not true of Calvinists or those who believe in God's sovereignty. To put it differently that I did before, I wish our side would act civilly and not exchange mean insult for mean insult, expecially from a man of Dr. White's influence (and yes, I have listened to him many times). To me, if he is a reformed leader, it is his job to make our side shine by acting in a gracious manner (unlike me sometimes), and not flame the fires.

Of course I could not debate him, as basically we are on the same side, and could not if we were not.

An example to me of someone who got the message for Reformed out in a calm, civil manner over the air waves, while alive, was D James Kennedy. My Dad actually gave to his ministry.

Again, sorry for the unwarranted comparisons to Robert Tilton. The more I think about it, that was pretty low.

Saturnneptune,
Well okay...I think we are still closer than apart here. I also enjoyed Dr.Kennedy. If I did not know James White personally , I can see how you might take it. He has a dry sense of humor.
Dr. White does not need me to defend him. He can speak for himself.
I will say that I have heard him speak out boldly ...even on the hank hannegraff program where he asked hank.....can we get back to what the scripture says hank??? I loved it.
Some of the debates he has done , he opens himself up to many unkind personal attacks, and if you look on you tube,and look up Dr.Oakley some of the attacks are posted. All very sad for sure.
When he invites people to debate.....it is to come to scripture and truth,,,, not all this side stuff. I am not saying that he is faultless as anyone who speaks out alot publically will make some wrong statements, and get heated, or sarcastic , in dealing with those who come trying to attack.
I just know and trust him as a good brother , and have come to respect much of what he does.

ps. tilton and others like him are a complete disgrace....agreed!

 

[Winman]

Dr. White completely dismantled the unsound paper that you agreed with and were full of glee over. You cannot comment on anything he actually says...so you attempt to smear him unsucessfully.
Man up- call the show one day and offer your correction.


If the context calls for it they will.Truth demands it.You cannot debate against truth,without bringing truth with you

Or....they have it correct each time,and it is you and others who try and change the words. The non-cal appears to lose the debate because to anyone looking objectively they ACTUALLY DO LOSE THE DEBATE.....each time:thumbs: Of course you will not like it, as you oppose the teaching .

Calvinists understand death as seperation.Your point is factually incorrect.

James is a skilled debate person, but the verses correctly taught applied and believed win the debate.

Winman....your response is a non response

My post was not intended to be a response to James White, I did not listen to the whole audio.

The guy turns me off, he laughs at and mocks his opponents (much like you), and therefore I dismiss him. If he really had good arguments, these tactics would be completely unnecessary.

You say you have heard him and he is a gentleman. Well, I am sure he is when he is among folks who agree with him, that proves nothing. Go view his videos on YouTube, I have many times. He's obnoxious and arrogant. He argues the very same arguments we hear right here at BB every day, no big deal. Except here most folks are very civil, except for a few that love to throw around the word heretic (like you). I can see why you like him, you are two peas in a pod.

And please learn how to use the quote feature, it doesn't help your credibility.