about your pastor

Went off behind his back and gossipped about him to another lady?

I was bound and determined to call him on it, but I didn't want to be rude, ugly, nor hateful. I didn't want to sin in any way. So, I went to the most ladylike woman in our church who has the most humble Christian spirit and I asked her if she felt wounded by his comment. I wanted to know if it was "just me". She said yes. She felt the same.[/QUOTE]

I can't believe it. I was right.

Joseph Botwinick

 

YES YES and NO

Of Course we have disagreed on biblical issues. We are married, AND we went to seminary together. The biggest thing we disagreed on was eschatology, but I couldn't believe his way b/c I had not been exposed to it as earlier as he had. I grew up thinking there was only one interpretation. Now we are much more in line together on that issue, but we both think critically, and we sharpen one another. But he is WAAAAAY sharper than I am, and much more learned about the Scriptures.
And he would never assert that he is always right, no matter what. He is always saying from the pulpit, "Now check me on this. Don't just believe it because a preacher says it." I like that. And I like him.

 

TaterTot,

Where do you and your husband now stand on eschatology? Am I reading your post right that you once didn't agree, but now do? If you don't want this thread to turn into an eschatology debate, I understand. Just PM me your message. I really am curious where you stand and where you used to stand.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Well, Joseph, I dont want to hijack the thread, but I will answer your question. I had only ever heard of the premillenial view and had heard it taught as fact for all my life. When I went to seminary and learned the other views, it really shook my little eschatalogical world. My husband eventually moved on to the amillenial view the more he has studied scripture in its original language and context of social setting. I am moving slowly toward that position (via historical premil), but I am not confident enough in it to teach it, so I dont. But what I DO know as a fact is that Jesus WILL return in His own time and His own way to wrap it all up.

I guess thats the biggest issue we have disagreed upon, but it wasnt in an argumentative manner. I know that he is alot sharper than I am, but I dont take what he says as complete truth without checking it out myself.

 

Its been too long for me to edit my post, and I wasnt clear about something. If I had to label myself, I would say that I am closest to "amill" now. And that is not because of the way he believes, its has been a personal journey of my own.
Its late and I hope I am making sense!

 

But, he is your husband, so if you disagree with him, does that mean you aren't being submissive?

Just kidding.

I too am an amill.-leaning person.

I suppose I could let you in the amill. club if you want to be.

Seriously though, we are all called on to sharpen each other, whether we be a pastor or a...choke..."lay" member. (I really don't like that term, but it best fits the situation)

I would like to think that our discussions as a church would strengthen us all together, pastor included.

 

I learned years ago that it's probably not a good idea for your pastor to be your Bible Study teacher also-- at least if you are an independent thinker and aren't afraid to "take him on." Although there are several points which led to a bit of conflict between a former pastor/teacher and me, the one that stands out best is this recreated conversation:

Him: So folks, although it is true when we say that everyone needs to be saved and therefore everyone needs Jesus, that doesn't mean that aren't some people who are outside the scope of what we're talking about. Children, for instance... And then think of a 70-year-old man whose mind never developed beyond that of a 6-year-old. He never reached the point where he could understand about sin and salavtion, so he is what we should call safe. He's not going to be condemned for what he can't possibly understand.

Me: Wait a minute. Haven't you said before in this class that Satan is the cause of all pain, disease, and death among mankind.

Him: That's right. Disease and death exist because of his influence for man to sin.

Me: And that 70-year-old man you just mentioned-- he had the mental level of a 6-year-old because of a certain type of disease, right? [No answer] I mean, there is a condition over which he had no control which prevents him from thinking on a mature level?

Him: Yes-- it is a disease, if that's what you're asking.

Me: Then Satan is ultimately responsible for that man not being condemned to hell, right?

His face dropped-- a very rare thing for him-- as he saw that I had gotten him to indicate that Satan has kept the man in his example from having the possiblity of condemnation. But he quickly snapped something like, "Yes, now, just remember Jesus is there, and if you need Him He will gladly be your Lord. Now..." And that was how he always tried to cut the possiblity of anyone questioning what he said-- just finish a statement, then in a split-second start a new thought with "Now..." By the time of this incident he probably knew me well enough to know I would press that matter further, as to the point of whether giving someone a concussion severe enough would eliminate the possibility of perdition.

So if you want to play the 'dumb sheep' role and go whatever direction your "shepherd" prods you, then a pastor who resents being questioned may be your choice. But if you're one who thinks on your own, it's a good idea to keep some distance.

 

Folks, what we are saying here about certain Bible Study classes is all well and fine---I agree---we do need to "search the Scripture . . . for these are they that testify of Me(Jesus)."

And I'm not saying that what Scarlett shared here was the wrong thing to do! You do need to understand that, Sister!

But in my 17 years of pastoral experience---I have had more than one Ladies Bible Study class "crash and burn" and have been left "moppin' up the mess" it caused.

I would throw caution in here, though----never, no ever never would I---if I were a "spiritual leader" in the church---never, ever, no ever would I even attempt to begin a "Study Topic" without first of all consulting with my pastor---I would say something like

"Brother So & So! Us ladies are interesting in studying such and such! It has a video series included and here is the workbook we're gonna use! Will you take time to scan through it and see what you think---and if you like it---if you think its good enough for us ladies---I'll order it from LifeWay!"

And I would consult my pastor with the thought of---if he don't like this study---if he wouldn't recommend it---it ain't no big deal---I'll keep searching for material until we have something that will meet our leader's criteria! I ain't gonna be a cry baby or fly off the handle or cause a big ole "rue-cus"---

And ladies---remember this----never ever, no ever never conduct a Bible Study of any sort that you cannot feel confortable inviting your pastor in---if he wants to sit in back of the class and just observe if thats what he wants to do! "Preacher---if you'd like to come sometime---just to see what we're doing--come on!"

You better believe, Sisters--this preacher has mopped up messes caused when ladies begin to plug into the little "Word-Faith" movements---good gracious, I'd rather clean up the mess after a big ole airliner crash---thats what you get spiritually---when you start dabblin' in that junk!

And I don't think I'm wrong about anything I said! Amen??

PS--this goes for men also---and "Co-ed" classes as well!! Just study what happened when Korah thought he could do something without the Preacher's(Moses') consent!!!!

Bro. David

[ March 14, 2005, 06:39 AM: Message edited by: blackbird ]

 

Yes, Yes, and No. I tell my people, "It's o.k. if you don't agree with everything I say, I don't even agree with everything I've ever said." I emphasize to them that nothing is true because I say so, but they must search the Scripture. I do tell them that if they disagree with something I have preached, it must be Scriptural truth that fuels the disagreement, not personal preference, etc. During our mid-week service we have an open forum in which they can ask me any question they want - current events, prophecy, Biblical interpretation, whatever. I often have to say, "I don't know, I'll have to do some research on that." They are free to disagree with my views and express that or question further. It has sharpened me and, I think, has sharpened some of them. Disagreement is a great contributor to growth as long as it is done with a proper spirit on both parts.

 

As a pastor, it's not being questioned or approached that bothers most of us. It is the way it is done.

There are some who purposely raise their hands during a Sunday School lesson and ask a question that they know will cause division or strife. That is wrong and unkind.

There are others who come to the pastor privately and question him on something that they don't really care what he has to say, they just want to express their own opinions and be argumentative.

I don't care for the "trick" questions that a poster mentioned above either. I don't think it is beneficial for either the pastor or the person who asks the question. I think it is dishonest and arrogant.

 

I don't do this with everyone.

I only do it with my pastor because he is not an angry person and he has yet to get angry with any question I ask him, or even that others ask him.

If he was not so good natured, and not such a close friend, I would not ask him those types of questions in that manner.

I know he doesn't mind because he loves to argue too.

He even questions me the same way sometimes.

BTW, today is his 41st birthday. I called to wish him a happy birthday this morning.

Do you all know your pastor's birthday?

 

Yes, I do, Bro. Reed. I also know he and his wife's anniversary.

His 30th anniversary as our Pastor is coming up April 10th and we have a week-long celebration planned with gifts and guest speakers every night.

 

Blackbird, Do you have ladies only Sunday School Classes? If so, how do you keep those from becoming a time of gossip?

I am very uncomfortable at times in my Sunday School Class because I believe too much information is given in the guise of prayer requests. Do any of you have this problem?

How do you control it?

 

Thank you Scalett. That is most helpful. The problem is that the teacher will not stop the discussions and the president of our class is the one who really gives us too much information.

 

Since we dn't have Sunday School, we do not have these problems.

I think you all should follow our lead.