Abraham and Genesis 26:4-5

[Pastor Larry]

You don't need to know how to do the Heimlich if you see someone choking...instinct tells you assistance is needed. God's law, conscience and immortality is also built into us instinctively.

But again, you are missing the point. One can look at creation and know that assistance is needed. But it doesn't tell us what that is. The gospel is that Jesus died for sin for us. That is not in creation anywhere.

Do you know the meanings of the constellations? I'm not talking about what satan has twisted into astrology, but the original meanings.

No, and it could hardly be less relevant. The fact that someone may have named a constellation after something biblical does not mean that the gospel is in the stars.

I don't have to prove anything. We come to our beliefs based on what we believe to be true. I stated what I believed to be true and why. I also don't recall stating that this viewpoint was concrete.

You made a statement that seemed at least as strong as mine. I don't recall you stating why you believed that Job learned about his redeemer from the stars.

On the otherhand, you have stated Job's knowledge didn't come from the stars. Prove it.

So if I said that Job didn't get his knowledge from a used NASCAR tire would you ask me to prove that? There are some things so patently obvious that they don't need proof. I think we generally called that prima facie. The fact is that there is not one iota of evidence that Job learned that from the stars. Asking me to prove that he didn't borders on absurd. No one would think that he did, based on the text of Scripture.

And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." (Gen 1:14-15). Clearly Scripture refers to stars serving as signs. Signs have meanings. Where we disagree is what these signs are used for.

God told us what the signs were for. You quoted it yourself: For seasons and days and years. Not for the gospel or the Redeemer or any such things.

So I take it you cannot offer proof.

I have already pointed out several arguments, and I have pointed out the absurdity of asking me to prove it.

The Gospel in the stars is God's communication used directly by humans to share the story of redemption...so I guess according to your logic, there is proof.

I disagree. The gospel is in the Bible. That is God's propositional revelation to us.

The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. (Isaiah 13:10).

Can you bind the beautiful Pleiades? Can you loose the cords of Orion? Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons or lead out the Bear with its cubs? Do you know the laws of the heavens? (Job 38:31-32)

But none of these have anything to do with the gospel. The "law of the heavens" most likely has to do with the way that the heavens operate. It is reference to man's finiteness, as you can tell by reading them in their context where God tells Job to "brace himself like a man" and let God ask him some questions.

 

[webdog]

In order to see such a Gospel, one would have to know the gospel already.

...and that's exactly what GIS is, sharing the Gospel through the stars.

And one would have to believe there are hidden meanings in the constellations. Looking for hidden meanings goes completely against biblical principles and is acutally the basis for occultism.

What does this mean :confuse: If the constellations were named for a purpose, to share the Gospel, there is nothing "hidden" about it. That's like saying there are hidden meanings from the words of the alphabet when you put them together to form words.

 

[Marcia]

I appreciate the work you do with cults, but everything isn't tied into cults. Surely this isn't...
Can you bind the beautiful Pleiades? Can you loose the cords of Orion? Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons or lead out the Bear with its cubs? Do you know the laws of the heavens? (Job 38:31-32)

This has nothing to do with the gospel but shows God as Creator and ruler of all. "Laws of the heavens" refers to reading hidden meanings into constellations? Please give evidence of that from the Bible. I think it is just a reference to the way God has ordered the heavens and creation. You are reading meanings into things that are not there, webdog.

In response to what you wrote on your FAQ's, once the region was populated, and written material began to exist, there wouldn't be much need for sharing the Gospel in this manner.

There needs to be biblical support for such a theory, and there is none. Believe me, it would make my ministry much easier if there were. I've had very fanatical believers in GIS practically hound me. They get angry when I don't agree. It would make evangelizing easier, too. But I cannot in good conscience do it because I am convinced that GIS is false.

If one notices the proximity of Orion (The Coming Light), Taurus (The Judge), and Eridanus (River of the Judge), we can see this put together in Scripture...

What is the source for your information that this is what Orion, Taurus, and so forth mean? Taurus is not the judge, it's the bull. Orion was a Greek name for a hunter in Greek mythology.

His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise. And his brightness was as the light; he had horns coming out of his hand: and there was the hiding of his power. Before him went the pestilence, and burning coals went forth at his feet. He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting (Hab. 3:3-6).

This has nothing to do with the zodiac at all.

Psalm 19: 1-4 The heavens declare the glory of God; The skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; Night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, Their words to the ends of the world. Sure sounds like information to me, and not the extra biblical "general revelation" used so commonly, which actually limit's God's work, creation and means

Yes! It's proclaiming God as the Creator and His glory as Creator!!! It's poetry. This does not support the belief that there is a hidden meaning in the constellations.​

 

[webdog]

Webdog, what is the source of this information? I believe this has been refuted. I don't think there is any historical evidence for such meanings.

If these were original meanings, we'd see them referred to in the Bible. At the very least, there would be a clear reference to a meaning in these constellations related to the gospel.

The argument that astrology twisted original meanings is a nice sounding one but has no biblical basis. Not all forms of the occult are based on a sound system. What is the orthodox counterpart to reading palms, scrying, runes, tarot cards, etc.?

Perhaps most significantly of all, God has several passages denouncing looking for guidance from the heavenly bodies.

Why do the meaning have to be referred to in the Bible? The fact the very names are referred to in the Bible should get the reader to look deeper as to why they are in there in the first place.

Marcia, do you think God had the wicked astrology in mind when He wrote the constellation names in the Bible? Clearly you don't think this! Common sense dictates that the modern astrology evolved from it's original purpose.

 

[Marcia]

...and that's exactly what GIS is, sharing the Gospel through the stars.
What does this mean :confuse: If the constellations were named for a purpose, to share the Gospel, there is nothing "hidden" about it. That's like saying there are hidden meanings from the words of the alphabet when you put them together to form words.

If the constellations gave the gospel, there would be biblical evidence for it. It's not analogous to the alphabet because the alphabet is used to make words.

The constellations are not used to give us words or give us the gospel - only by those who decided there was a hidden message there. This came about in the 1800s. If there truly was a gospel there, then we would have known about it before the 1800s.

I could write a book on a system of rivers somewhere forming a cross, and maybe another system forming a woman expecting a baby (the virgin with child), and then say that the gospel message is in the pattern of rivers. This is called reading meanings into things; something that is totally against the Bible.

 

[Marcia]

Why do the meaning have to be referred to in the Bible? The fact the very names are referred to in the Bible should get the reader to look deeper as to why they are in there in the first place.

Marcia, do you think God had the wicked astrology in mind when He wrote the constellation names in the Bible? Clearly you don't think this! Common sense dictates that the modern astrology evolved from it's original purpose.

The names of constellations in the Bible (I think there is only two) have nothing to do with the gospel and you haven't shown that they do.

Naming constellations is astronomy, not astrology.

Astrology and astronomy were the same thing when first practiced. People looked at the heavenly bodies and learned how to measure distance, follow their movements, etc. But they also read meanings into them (pagan people read meanings into them, not God). Astrology and astronomy separated around the Age of Reason.

What you are saying is not giving evidence for GIS.

 

[webdog]

This has nothing to do with the gospel but shows God as Creator and ruler of all. "Laws of the heavens" refers to reading hidden meanings into constellations? Please give evidence of that from the Bible. I think it is just a reference to the way God has ordered the heavens and creation. You are reading meanings into things that are not there, webdog.

You say it has nothing to do with the Bible...then go on to state "you think" it's just a reference to the way God has ordered the heavens. What does what you think have to do with the Bible?

There needs to be biblical support for such a theory, and there is none. Believe me, it would make my ministry much easier if there were. I've had very fanatical believers in GIS practically hound me. They get angry when I don't agree. It would make evangelizing easier, too. But I cannot in good conscience do it because I am convinced that GIS is false.

Who says there hasn't been evidence for it...and you have shut your mind to it? Trust me, I'm not fanatical, nor will I "hound you". You just totally ignore the passages in the Bible dealing with the constellations?

What is the source for your information that this is what Orion, Taurus, and so forth mean? Taurus is not the judge, it's the bull. Orion was a Greek name for a hunter in Greek mythology.

There's been numerous writings by different authors. I believe it was Dolphin (not the mammal, but the author's name)

This has nothing to do with the zodiac at all.

Obviously according to you, since you dismiss the meanings of the constallations to begin with.

Yes! It's proclaiming God as the Creator and His glory as Creator!!! It's poetry. This does not support the belief that there is a hidden meaning in the constellations.

Because something's poetry, doesn't mean one can dismiss it's contents as being both literal or true. It's clearly proclaiming stars as signs...signs deliver information...information delivers truth. You claim it does not support the belief...how do you prove a negative?

 

[webdog]

If the constellations gave the gospel, there would be biblical evidence for it. It's not analogous to the alphabet because the alphabet is used to make words.

The constellations are not used to give us words or give us the gospel - only by those who decided there was a hidden message there. This came about in the 1800s. If there truly was a gospel there, then we would have known about it before the 1800s.

I could write a book on a system of rivers somewhere forming a cross, and maybe another system forming a woman expecting a baby (the virgin with child), and then say that the gospel message is in the pattern of rivers. This is called reading meanings into things; something that is totally against the Bible.

...so there should be biblical evidence that Gospel tracts give the Gospel too, I suppose.

What is your source that this whole thing was "invented" in the 1800's?

 

[webdog]

The names of constellations in the Bible (I think there is only two) have nothing to do with the gospel and you haven't shown that they do.

Naming constellations is astronomy, not astrology.

Astrology and astronomy were the same thing when first practiced. People looked at the heavenly bodies and learned how to measure distance, follow their movements, etc. But they also read meanings into them (pagan people read meanings into them, not God). Astrology and astronomy separated around the Age of Reason.

What you are saying is not giving evidence for GIS.

Nothing to do with the Gospel, eh? And what is the pupose of the Bible in the first place if not to proclaim the Bible? The mention of the constellations (by God in first person, no less) is insignificant? You are confusing decans with constellations. Decans date back to 2100 B.C or so from ancient Egypt. They do not share the same names as the constellations given by God in Job, btw.

 

[Marcia]

You say it has nothing to do with the Bible...then go on to state "you think" it's just a reference to the way God has ordered the heavens. What does what you think have to do with the Bible?
Who says there hasn't been evidence for it...and you have shut your mind to it? Trust me, I'm not fanatical, nor will I "hound you". You just totally ignore the passages in the Bible dealing with the constellations?
There's been numerous writings by different authors. I believe it was Dolphin (not the mammal, but the author's name)
Obviously according to you, since you dismiss the meanings of the constallations to begin with.

Because something's poetry, doesn't mean one can dismiss it's contents as being both literal or true. It's clearly proclaiming stars as signs...signs deliver information...information delivers truth. You claim it does not support the belief...how do you prove a negative?

How does a reference to constellations prove there is a gospel in the stars? These references do not mean they are connected to giving the gospel! I am not ignoring them. But they have nothing to do with the gospel or reading a hidden meaning about the gospel.

You have not proved your case. I say there is no evidence for it because there is none in the Bible and the "evidence" for it came about in the 1800s largely through a man named Joseph Seiss and a couple of others, whose work has never been validated.

 

[Marcia]

Nothing to do with the Gospel, eh? And what is the pupose of the Bible in the first place if not to proclaim the Bible? The mention of the constellations (by God in first person, no less) is insignificant?

You are really reaching now. :tongue3:

You have not explained how God referring to a couple of constellations has anything to do with the gospel. Btw, I have found that this seems to be the only thing in the Bible GIS supporters offer in their futile efforts to convince people they are right, yet they can never show how this connects to the gospel.

God refers to all kinds of things in the Bible that have no connection with the gospel. The references show his knowledge and power as Creator. That is what the context is about.

 

[webdog]

How does a reference to constellations prove there is a gospel in the stars?

Why did God mention them? Was it just a tangent He went on with Job uttering nonsense?

These references do not mean they are connected to giving the gospel! I am not ignoring them. But they have nothing to do with the gospel or reading a hidden meaning about the gospel.

I disagree, and I believe Paul did as well...
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; “THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD.”

You have not proved your case. I say there is no evidence for it because there is none in the Bible and the "evidence" for it came about in the 1800s largely through a man named Joseph Seiss and a couple of others, whose work has never been validated.

Didn't realize Romans was written that late!

 

[webdog]

You are really reaching now. :tongue3:

You have not explained how God referring to a couple of constellations has anything to do with the gospel. Btw, I have found that this seems to be the only thing in the Bible GIS supporters offer in their futile efforts to convince people they are right, yet they can never show how this connects to the gospel.

God refers to all kinds of things in the Bible that have no connection with the gospel. The references show his knowledge and power as Creator. That is what the context is about.

I didn't say those couple things alone is what refers to the GiS. I believe when the evidence taken as a whole supports it.

So the constellations God mentions were named and created by Him What "context" supports this claim?

The book of Jasher (also mentioned in the Bible) has some interesting reading in chapters 8 and 9, too. If these accounts are true, Abram's apparent involvement and interest in the heavens before believing in God may play a role in his using the stars to proclaim the Gospel.

 

[Amy.G]

So the constellations God mentions were named and created by Him What "context" supports this claim?

Psa 147:4 He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by [their] names.



Exactly how does a person know the gospel by looking at the stars? How does he know of Jesus?

 

[webdog]

Psa 147:4 He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by [their] names.



Exactly how does a person know the gospel by looking at the stars? How does he know of Jesus?

Be honest...you haven't read the thread :laugh:

 

[Marcia]

Why did God mention them? Was it just a tangent He went on with Job uttering nonsense?

I already said at least twice - God is showing Job who is in charge and that He's the Creator!

I disagree, and I believe Paul did as well...
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; “THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD.”

Didn't realize Romans was written that late

V. 18 refers to Ps. 19 which is talking about the glory of the Lord, and how He as Creator is seen. Some commentators write that Ps 19 was a refutation of Egyptian views of one of their gods, Ra, the sun god, who supposedly travelled around following the sun and then descended into the earth.

As the sun god, he rode across the sky in a golden ship, bringing light and warmth to all creatures living on earth. When the sun set in the evening, he descended to the underworld and brought light and air to the people who dwelled there.

http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Pr-Sa/Ra-Re.html

Where is this gospel in Ps. 19, and if the gospel has gone out into the world via the constellations, how did it go?

 

[Marcia]

Posted by Webdog:

The Incarnate Son (Virgo) Isaiah 7:14
The Redeemer (Libra) 1 Cor. 6:20
The Sufferer (Scorpio) 1 Cor. 15:55-56
The Conqueror (Sagittarius) Rev. 6:2
The Sacrifice (Capricornus) Romans 3:25
The Living Water (Aquarius) John 7:38
The Liberator (Pisces) Gen. 48:19; Mark 1:17
The Crowned Lamb (Aries) Rev. 5:6
The Judge (Taurus) John 5:22
The King (Gemini) Romans 1:3
The Protector (Cancer) Isaiah 4:5-6
The Victor (Leo) Rev. 5:5

What is the source for what you posted here?

 

[Amy.G]

Be honest...you haven't read the thread :laugh:

Yes I did. But I guess I missed it. Which post did you tell how I can see the gospel in the stars?

 

[Marcia]

I didn't say those couple things alone is what refers to the GiS. I believe when the evidence taken as a whole supports it.

Webdog, many people aside from myself have looked at the so-called "evidence," and there isn't any except was came through those guys in the 1800s, which has not been validated and is not from the Bible.

So the constellations God mentions were named and created by Him What "context" supports this claim?

The context of the passages in which the constellations are mentioned!

The book of Jasher (also mentioned in the Bible) has some interesting reading in chapters 8 and 9, too. If these accounts are true, Abram's apparent involvement and interest in the heavens before believing in God may play a role in his using the stars to proclaim the Gospel

I think you know that a book or person quoted or referred to in the Bible does not mean we can trust it, only that part which is quoted to in the Bible. Sometimes a reference is just a reference to the existence of something.

Certainly we are not to suddenly add the book of Jasher to our Bible now! This reminds me so much of the book of Enoch issue.

 

[webdog]

I already said at least twice - God is showing Job who is in charge and that He's the Creator!

...so He mentions two constellations by name...just to show Job he's the creator? Kind of odd.

V. 18 refers to Ps. 19 which is talking about the glory of the Lord, and how He as Creator is seen. Some commentators write that Ps 19 was a refutation of Egyptian views of one of their gods, Ra, the sun god, who supposedly travelled around following the sun and then descended into the earth.

The above bolded is what you added to both things in the text, the heavens, and the sky. Which proclaims which?

Where is this gospel in Ps. 19, and if the gospel has gone out into the world via the constellations, how did it go?

Why does "via the constellation" have to be in there? As a fellow dispy, these are the same arguments we both refute of our amill friends. Since Scripture doesn't contradict, Psalm 19 points to Romans 10 and vice versa. Paul, in context, was speaking of the Gospel having gone out to all the world...not "general revelation", but that which is preached...the Good News.