-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Abraham and Genesis 26:4-5
- Thread starter HankD
- Start date
Agreed.Pastor Larry said:
But that is not my issue.
Is it possible these charges, commandments, statutes and laws were codified by Abraham and the other patriarchs? Was is "oral tradition" or "intuitive" or simply God teaching each one of the patriarchs singularly.
Also I used the word "indicates" which does not necessarily mean codification is so.
The Hebrew word "torah" (not it's English equivalents and synonyms) is used 223 times in the OT and if your rebutal is true then Genesis 26:5 is the only place where it not used of a codified law.
I believe that qualifies as an indication that portions of the law could have been codified (but not inspired) by the patriarchs.
Look at the other words that the inspired Scripture uses in Genesis 26:5
...and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
charge (mishmereth): BDB says is used often as the performance of a ceremonial service.
commandments (mitvuth):TWOT says a secondary meaning of this word is used for signposts and/or monuments.
statutes (kuqaw) TWOT 0727.0 "Carved, portrayed, set in print"
I would say that these words are at least an indication that it could have been at least partially codified.
I don't know how we got so involved with the star thing but that's not my idea of codifcation, the written word and/or oral tradition seems far more likely to me.
Of course God-breathed inspiration of the very words themselves came later and in different ways through the prophets, Christ and His apostles:
NKJ Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
HankD
Marcia
Active Member
webdog said:
How can you say this? God does this throughout the book of Job, in Psalms, and all over the place (referring to things in creation to show Him as Creator). The burden is on you to show that this references is giving the gospel.
I don't get what you are asking about Ps. 19. Have you read it tonight? I did.
Paul using Ps 19 in Rom. 10 does not mean the constellations give the gospel.
I gave the proof that God mentioned the constellations. You have not given me an alternative to what I have said. He didn't create the constellations, so your argument is not making sense. Why are they specifically mentioned by names by God?
I have. Paul indeed connects the Gospel going out to all the world with the heavens of Ps. 19. Have they not heard? Of course they have...
Marcia
Active Member
Joseph Seiss is the one whose work made GIS well-known, but it was based on the work of a woman named Frances Rolleston.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v3/n1/gospel-in-stars
(I was unable to change the bolding above which was a mistake but I couldn't get it to go back to normal type).
Source:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v3/n1/gospel-in-stars
(I was unable to change the bolding above which was a mistake but I couldn't get it to go back to normal type).
Marcia
Active Member
webdog said:
God didn't create the constellations? That's news to God, I'm sure! :laugh: Of course, He created them! Btw, the constellations have had different names over time and in different cultures. And there are many, many of them.
Because God is showing he created all and knows all. Did you read these passages? So He uses a name to refer to something - how does that show a gospel in the stars? I would guess that God used the name that men knew so they would know what he is referring to, just like using other words so we know what He means. Using these terms has nothing to do with showing a gospel in the stars!
Paul's use of this does not mean there is a gospel in the stars. Just as Is 7.14 is telling a king that a young woman will bear a son and this passage is later used to refer to Mary having Jesus, so Ps. 19 telling us how God's glory is seen in creation is referred to by Paul to show that now the gospel has gone out into the world (just as God's glory was declared in creation). It does not mean the gospel went out into the world through the stars in Ps. 19.
Possible? I guess, but I doubt it. Some was probably intuitive conscience, and some was probably direct revelation would be my guess.
If I understand your point, I don't agree. I think there are a number of uses where it is not codified law, such as the one I cited earlier and a number of others. The word simply means instruction or teaching. I don't think it necessarily implies codification.
But again, perhaps I misunderstand you.
Why not simply take it as the instructions of God to Abraham about how to live life in faith?
Yes, too bad about the star stuff. That is way off topic here.
No, you haven't misunderstood me.Pastor Larry said:
I read this passage many years ago when taking Hebrew in Bible College and have wondered about it for years. These words and others are used concerning Abraham which are used over and over again later under the law, concerning the duties of the law, the ceremonies, the sacrifices, precepts, ordinances, etc.
Some of which to me implied written words.
I wondered whether Abraham had anything passed on or acquired by Him from the families of Seth in the form of a written word.
I believe it to be a definite possibility.
You are the only one that has answered the inquiry directly and I appreciate that Pastor Larry even though we don't agree.
Anyone else care to give their thoughts?
HankD
North Carolina Tentmaker
New Member
Wow, Thanks for the thread HankD. I am sorry I let it go 5 pages without jumping in but this thread was seriously derailed. This is something I have thought about and studied quite a bit and I agree with you. Hang on because this is going to get a little long.
I believe Abraham had written tablets that had been passed down to him and that he in turn passed them on. I believe that the Bible itself tells us this. I will be very specific.
There is a phrase repeated several times throughout the book of Genesis. It is “These are the generations.” This phrase is a translation of a single Hebrew word, towleah. It occurs 13 times in the book of Genesis.
Something else that makes the hair on my neck stand up is look at Exodus 13:19. When Moses left Egypt he took something with him, the bones of Joseph. Now that Hebrew word translated bones is etsem. It does mean bones, but it can also mean essence or self. Yes I do believe that the children of Israel took the body of Joseph with them out of Egypt, I have no problem with that. But I also believe that with that body Moses also retrieved something more important, the family history that Joseph had received from his father and added to by his own hand.
So here is what I believe, I believe that Genesis was written by as many as 9 people . I believe God himself, walking side by side in the garden with Adam told him what to write in the first section. Then I believe that was added to by Adam, Noah, Shem, Terah, Ishmael, Isaac, Esau, Jacob, and finally by Joseph before being passed on to Moses. I believe that phrase about the generations is a key dividing line between the sections written by different authors.
It is interesting to me that there is not a section attributed to Abraham but there are sections given to his father and to his sons. Another twist, since it has been suggested that Moses’ father in law Jethro was a descendant of Esau Moses may have picked up some of these tablets while living in the desert. No way to know, I just propose the possibility. So I believe that Moses assembled the tablets, translated them if necessary and then combined them into the first book of the Law. At least that is what I believe.
This idea is not new to me. I first read about this in John Phillip’s book “Exploring Genesis.” (which is an awesome commentary on Genesis by the way) Of course I don’t see definitive proof, but this is a theory I believe is true.
There are solutions and problems in this theory. It solves the problem of “How did Moses know all that stuff?” if Moses wrote Genesis. But it also brings up the problem of languages. If this written record goes back to Adam then it was written down BEFORE the tower of babel and the confusion of the languages. That means that Moses could understand the original language of the earth. Now that is not that hard to explain, either God gave Moses that linguistic ability, or the original language of the earth was a language Moses already spoke. Could it be that the original language of the earth was Hebrew or whatever form of Hebrew the children of Israel spoke at this time? Or was it at least close enough that Moses could figure it out?
Anyhow, that is my 2 cents worth (do we calculate that by the word)
I believe Abraham had written tablets that had been passed down to him and that he in turn passed them on. I believe that the Bible itself tells us this. I will be very specific.
There is a phrase repeated several times throughout the book of Genesis. It is “These are the generations.” This phrase is a translation of a single Hebrew word, towleah. It occurs 13 times in the book of Genesis.
Now we know that Moses knew how to write, and we know that he wrote things in books. Look at Exodus 17:14. The only use of the word book in the Bible prior to Exodus 17:14 it is in conjunction with this phrase back in Genesis 5:1. Looking at that word “Book” in Genesis 5:1, it is the Hebrew word cepher. It is the same word used in Exodus 17:14 and it cannot mean anything but a written record. Genesis 5:1 says without any doubt that there was a written record of the generations of Adam. Now I guess you could explain that as just a reference to Genesis itself even if Moses wrote it, but to me the implication is clear that there was a written record before Moses.
Something else that makes the hair on my neck stand up is look at Exodus 13:19. When Moses left Egypt he took something with him, the bones of Joseph. Now that Hebrew word translated bones is etsem. It does mean bones, but it can also mean essence or self. Yes I do believe that the children of Israel took the body of Joseph with them out of Egypt, I have no problem with that. But I also believe that with that body Moses also retrieved something more important, the family history that Joseph had received from his father and added to by his own hand.
So here is what I believe, I believe that Genesis was written by as many as 9 people . I believe God himself, walking side by side in the garden with Adam told him what to write in the first section. Then I believe that was added to by Adam, Noah, Shem, Terah, Ishmael, Isaac, Esau, Jacob, and finally by Joseph before being passed on to Moses. I believe that phrase about the generations is a key dividing line between the sections written by different authors.
It is interesting to me that there is not a section attributed to Abraham but there are sections given to his father and to his sons. Another twist, since it has been suggested that Moses’ father in law Jethro was a descendant of Esau Moses may have picked up some of these tablets while living in the desert. No way to know, I just propose the possibility. So I believe that Moses assembled the tablets, translated them if necessary and then combined them into the first book of the Law. At least that is what I believe.
This idea is not new to me. I first read about this in John Phillip’s book “Exploring Genesis.” (which is an awesome commentary on Genesis by the way) Of course I don’t see definitive proof, but this is a theory I believe is true.
There are solutions and problems in this theory. It solves the problem of “How did Moses know all that stuff?” if Moses wrote Genesis. But it also brings up the problem of languages. If this written record goes back to Adam then it was written down BEFORE the tower of babel and the confusion of the languages. That means that Moses could understand the original language of the earth. Now that is not that hard to explain, either God gave Moses that linguistic ability, or the original language of the earth was a language Moses already spoke. Could it be that the original language of the earth was Hebrew or whatever form of Hebrew the children of Israel spoke at this time? Or was it at least close enough that Moses could figure it out?
Anyhow, that is my 2 cents worth (do we calculate that by the word)
Last edited by a moderator:
Thanks Tentmaker. Yes it is evident that records of all kinds were kept in pre-law days.North Carolina Tentmaker said:
I centered in on "Torah" and "mitzvouth" because to this very day Talmudic Judaism uses these words exclusively for written words.
We are not told the manner in which Moses compiled the inspired "Torah" apart from several direct conversations with God (even described as man-to-man).
But the end product was the God-breathed first 5 Books of the Bible.
Genesis 26:5 caught my eye years ago and I have always thought about the possibility of a wrriten record of some kind.
It seems fitting to me that the believing families of Seth (and possibly others) wanted to keep a written record of what God had said and done (howbeit not inspired).
Thanks again to you and Pastor Larry (and the astronomers as well).
HankD
NCT,
If your contention (and Hank’s) is merely that Abraham had some sort of written records, there isn’t much (if any) dispute about that. My understanding of Hank’s question had to do with a written law of God’s commands, not a genealogy or history. Again, please forgive me if I am misunderstanding something here.
You speak of the phrase “These are the generations” as being a translation of a single Hebrew word owleah. This is not correct on two fronts. First, the word in question is toledoth, not towleah (which, so far as I can tell, is a different word meaning “worm” used in Isa 14:11 and Job 25:6). The word toledoth comes from the verb yalad, meaning "to bear or beget." Thus, it’s meaning of descendants is easily seen. Second, this is not the translation of a single Hebrew word in most cases. I didn’t look in depth at all of them, but a quick glance shows that most have the demonstrative pronoun “these” (‘eleh), and at least one is in a construct with the prefix preposition le. I don’t think any of them are absolute.
But to the main point, again I don’t think there is any dispute that there were written records used by Moses in writing the Pentateuch. My understanding of Hank’s question was that he was asking about a written law from God that Abraham kept. That, I believe, there is no evidence for, and no reason to suspect a written code of God’s instructions existed. I think Abraham simply heard from God and did what he said.
Remember torah does not necessarily imply written. It simply means instruction.
If your contention (and Hank’s) is merely that Abraham had some sort of written records, there isn’t much (if any) dispute about that. My understanding of Hank’s question had to do with a written law of God’s commands, not a genealogy or history. Again, please forgive me if I am misunderstanding something here.
You speak of the phrase “These are the generations” as being a translation of a single Hebrew word owleah. This is not correct on two fronts. First, the word in question is toledoth, not towleah (which, so far as I can tell, is a different word meaning “worm” used in Isa 14:11 and Job 25:6). The word toledoth comes from the verb yalad, meaning "to bear or beget." Thus, it’s meaning of descendants is easily seen. Second, this is not the translation of a single Hebrew word in most cases. I didn’t look in depth at all of them, but a quick glance shows that most have the demonstrative pronoun “these” (‘eleh), and at least one is in a construct with the prefix preposition le. I don’t think any of them are absolute.
But to the main point, again I don’t think there is any dispute that there were written records used by Moses in writing the Pentateuch. My understanding of Hank’s question was that he was asking about a written law from God that Abraham kept. That, I believe, there is no evidence for, and no reason to suspect a written code of God’s instructions existed. I think Abraham simply heard from God and did what he said.
Remember torah does not necessarily imply written. It simply means instruction.
North Carolina Tentmaker
New Member
Thanks for the correction Larry, I am talking about towledah like you said. Sorry, I left out the d. Hey, I can barely spell English words. This is Strong’s H8435. I guess you can spell it several ways. This is the transliteration spelling out of my Strong’s dictionary. That is the word that occurs 13 times in Genesis. I quoted those verses earlier. It is linked with a pronoun once, but it is the use of towledah that is unique to these verses. In Genesis 2:4 it is linked with the pronoun el-leh, translated “these.” In Gen 5:1 it is linked with the word cepher translated “book.” In the other 11 occurrences in Genesis there is no pronoun. Look, I don’t think the pronoun is important although cepher may be relevant.
Towledah occurs 39 times total in scripture being translated as generations 38 times and birth once in the AV. It does come from the root word yalad (Strong’s H3205). Yalad does mean to bear, or to bring forth. But that does not necessarily imply children. There are plenty of cases in scripture where it simply points to the results of something. Look at uses like Isaiah 59:4 where the bible says “they conceive mischief and bring forth iniquity.” The word yalad occurs here being translated “bring forth.”
Going back to Towledah, my dictionary defines it as:
Again to summarize, I believe these different sections were written by different men and passed down. I further believe that Abraham would have therefore had some written accounts of what God had done and what God expected. Not the full revelation we have today, but he would have had some written revelation of God he could follow.
Now of course I can not prove that, but I don’t think it can be disproven and I think there is evidence that suggests it. We also know that God did speak fact to face with Abraham and the existence of any written word would have complemented not displaced that.
Towledah occurs 39 times total in scripture being translated as generations 38 times and birth once in the AV. It does come from the root word yalad (Strong’s H3205). Yalad does mean to bear, or to bring forth. But that does not necessarily imply children. There are plenty of cases in scripture where it simply points to the results of something. Look at uses like Isaiah 59:4 where the bible says “they conceive mischief and bring forth iniquity.” The word yalad occurs here being translated “bring forth.”
Going back to Towledah, my dictionary defines it as:
Look at that definition 1 a, “The account of men.” I believe that the implication is clear that these accounts were given by the individuals named in each section. Do they also record the genealogical information of those listed? Yes they do.
Again to summarize, I believe these different sections were written by different men and passed down. I further believe that Abraham would have therefore had some written accounts of what God had done and what God expected. Not the full revelation we have today, but he would have had some written revelation of God he could follow.
Now of course I can not prove that, but I don’t think it can be disproven and I think there is evidence that suggests it. We also know that God did speak fact to face with Abraham and the existence of any written word would have complemented not displaced that.
Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
If you interpret this verse to mean that everything "Spiritual" has a "physical" counterpart here in the world, that can be seen/understood, you'll find the answer to a lot of "mysteries".
Here's some examples.
1. God, the "Spirit", was manifest in the world. (Jesus)
2. Spirit is compared with "WIND/AIR".
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Ac 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind,
3. The seven day week is God's plan for the Earth.
Ex 23:12 Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day (MK) thou shalt rest:
4. Farmers plants a "Seed" in the earth for "bread".
God planted a "SEED" in the earth for "Spiritual Bread".
Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life:
Let's look at one for which Christians have been laughed at, a "FLAT EARTH".
Of course a flat earth would mean "NO MOUNTIANS", not a "flat planet".
"Mountains" in scripture are the symbol representing "KINGDOMS".
Joe 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
We read Rev/Isa and find that during the trib, and prior to Jesus return, mountains disappear, and every valley is Exhalted (raise up) and every hill made low,
Re 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Isa 40:4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low:
This result in a "FLat Earth", the only exception being the "ONE KINGDOM", the "HOLY MOUNT(ian) from which Jesus reigns.
Exactly what the three wise men seen in the stars, I have no idea, but evidently they seen/understood this connection between the "Spiritual" and "physical" worlds, as did many of the "early people" on the earth.
Knowledge which modern man has lost.
If you interpret this verse to mean that everything "Spiritual" has a "physical" counterpart here in the world, that can be seen/understood, you'll find the answer to a lot of "mysteries".
Here's some examples.
1. God, the "Spirit", was manifest in the world. (Jesus)
2. Spirit is compared with "WIND/AIR".
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Ac 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind,
3. The seven day week is God's plan for the Earth.
Ex 23:12 Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day (MK) thou shalt rest:
4. Farmers plants a "Seed" in the earth for "bread".
God planted a "SEED" in the earth for "Spiritual Bread".
Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life:
Let's look at one for which Christians have been laughed at, a "FLAT EARTH".
Of course a flat earth would mean "NO MOUNTIANS", not a "flat planet".
"Mountains" in scripture are the symbol representing "KINGDOMS".
Joe 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
We read Rev/Isa and find that during the trib, and prior to Jesus return, mountains disappear, and every valley is Exhalted (raise up) and every hill made low,
Re 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Isa 40:4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low:
This result in a "FLat Earth", the only exception being the "ONE KINGDOM", the "HOLY MOUNT(ian) from which Jesus reigns.
Exactly what the three wise men seen in the stars, I have no idea, but evidently they seen/understood this connection between the "Spiritual" and "physical" worlds, as did many of the "early people" on the earth.
Knowledge which modern man has lost.
Me4Him said:
Jesus often used the know to illustrate the unknow.
But personally, if there is anything to this "record in the stars", it is probably a kind of eisogesis in which people over the ages read into the patterns of the heaven of stars as a method of remembering the past.
Later people then attributed these patterns to the gods (or even God).
So, I suppose it is possible that over the millenia, among the believers of Elohim, they could have named certain patterns in the night sky as a method of picturing and remembering the promises of God and His promised Messiah.
I don't know, I suppose it's within the realm of possibility that God could/would have purposely written the gospel in the stars.
But honestly I've never heard of an Australian Aborigine (for instance), being saved by looking at the night stars and seeing and believing in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
We have problems enough with the written word much less the "writings" in the stars.
The Scripture clearly indicates that He left the written revelation to the Prophets and Apostles.
BTW, Genesis 20:7 calls Abraham a prophet.
So, then comes the ever-present question "what about those who never heard the Word of God"?
Well, that's God's business.
Genesis 18:25 ... Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
Our business as NT priests is in the here and now to Intercede, pray, praise, give and go (among other things).
1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Myself, I could talk for hours about God and His creation of galaxies, stars, comets, etc and the wonders and marvels of these things especially now with our different kinds of telescopes revealing His infinite power and Glory.
But (FWIW) looking at the constellations and finding things there which we already believe via the revealed Word of God which we all possess sounds a lot like "stargazing". which the Scripture frowns upon.
But I supose we could spend our time on worst things.
HankD
Why would you do that? There is no warrant for that whatsoever. The verse simply means that by looking at creation, no one claim that there is no God. They are without excuse.
Pastor Larry said:
Jesus used the "natural things" of the world to teach "spiritual things", because they are related in "patterns".
Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Ge 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, (SUN) and the lesser light to rule the night: (Moon) he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Jesus, (Spiritual light of the world) came into the world on the "FOURTH DAY",
Moon=an assemble of God's people. (let your light shine)
Stars=Children of God (shine like the stars)
Every "religion" in the world is some form of "preverted" Christianity.
Worship the "SUN" instead of the "SON".
Human sacrifices vs Jesus crucified
Reincarnation vs Resurrection
Astrology vs true meaning of scripture.
"Rightly dividing" between the "two" is the problem.
No, it is called illustration, not pattern. There is no pattern involved. But Rom 1:21 doesn't fit that anyway.Me4Him said:
An illustration of the necessity of dying to self.
This was about the establishment of time.
No he didn't.
This is all completely without warrant. It is unbiblical.
The problem is prior to that. You can't just make up stuff from Scripture like you are doing.
Having preached through Genesis in the last two years, I am convinced of that. However, it has nothing to do with Isaiah 46:10, which is talking about something entirely different.
Pastor Larry said:
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
http://i32.tinypic.com/30a6dd1.jpg