Abraham and "the deeds of the law"

[Yeshua1]

jesus is far more than a way shower, he is the Son of god, whose death provoded means for God to save us!

the Gospel is preached/taught to sinners, and NOTHING in them can respond to that message. as we still need the work of the Holy spirit to open us up to be able/enabled to freely respond to it!

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Yeshua1,

jesus is far more than a way shower, he is the Son of god, whose death provoded means for God to save us!

the Gospel is preached/taught to sinners, and NOTHING in them can respond to that message. as we still need the work of the Holy spirit to open us up to be able/enabled to freely respond to it!

I agree that Jesus is the Son of God, whose death provided the means for God to save us. Could you please give me one verse that supports your assertion of “NOTHING in them can respond to that message.” I disagree that sinners cannot respond to the message of the gospel. God created man with the capacity to hear the Word of the Gospel, he can then affectionately accept this message and allow it to motivate his thoughts and his actions. I repeat the following as a simple example of this process of preaching the gospel and the hearers believing of the gospel.
Acts 8:5,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

If I tell you a credible fact, for example 2+2=4 and you believe what I say, is that not a capacity that you have been given by God? Why then do you deny the possibility that when we hear of the death and resurrection of Jesus and the promise of the kingdom of God on earth when he returns, that we have nothing within us that can believe this glad tidings?

The following clearly states that faith comes from hearing, and what we need to hear is the word of God.
Romans 10:17 (KJV): So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

God’s word is living and powerful and effective to accomplish what He plans to accomplish by means of this Word:
Isaiah 55:9-11 (KJV): 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Hebrews 4:12 (KJV): For the word of God is living, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
2 Timothy 3:15-17 (KJV): 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
You seem to be denying the power of the Word of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[The Biblicist]

God created man with the capacity to hear

Here is the crux of your error! God did in fact CREATE man with that capacity but since that CREATIVE act the fall occurred through which man voluntarily and freely forfeited his ability to spiritually hear, see or perceive spiritual things (Rom. 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14). This inabillity was brought upon the world by the sin of one man (Rom. 5:12-19) so that by "ONE MAN'S DISOBEDIENCE" all mankind not only were condemned to death but were made sinners by nature, born with a sinful nature and thus choose to sin due to the nature they were born into this world with.

Only God can provide a NEW heart that is necessary in order for them to spiritually hear, see, perceive anything and necessary for them to be willingly to seek after God.

Deut. 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Neither is the Lord bound by justice to do so for any sinner but rather if he so chooses to do so it is because of mercy as justicie only demands their just condemnation not their salvation:

Rom. 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Tit. 3:5 "Not my works of righteousness which we have done, BUT ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY he saved us..."

This is the essence of salvation BY GRACE rather than BY OBLIGATION.

Furthermore, after the fall, man's nature is described as following:

Rom. 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

 

[Yeshua1]

Greetings again Yeshua1,

I agree that Jesus is the Son of God, whose death provided the means for God to save us. Could you please give me one verse that supports your assertion of “NOTHING in them can respond to that message.” I disagree that sinners cannot respond to the message of the gospel. God created man with the capacity to hear the Word of the Gospel, he can then affectionately accept this message and allow it to motivate his thoughts and his actions. I repeat the following as a simple example of this process of preaching the gospel and the hearers believing of the gospel.
Acts 8:5,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

If I tell you a credible fact, for example 2+2=4 and you believe what I say, is that not a capacity that you have been given by God? Why then do you deny the possibility that when we hear of the death and resurrection of Jesus and the promise of the kingdom of God on earth when he returns, that we have nothing within us that can believe this glad tidings?

The following clearly states that faith comes from hearing, and what we need to hear is the word of God.
Romans 10:17 (KJV): So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

God’s word is living and powerful and effective to accomplish what He plans to accomplish by means of this Word:
Isaiah 55:9-11 (KJV): 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Hebrews 4:12 (KJV): For the word of God is living, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
2 Timothy 3:15-17 (KJV): 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
You seem to be denying the power of the Word of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

Jesus said that ONLY those who were granted to be enabled to hear would know the mysteries of the Kingdom, the rest would hear and stay deaf!

Adam had the means to freely hear and respond, but all since his fall had that taken from them!

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again The Biblicist and Yeshua1,

Here is the crux of your error! God did in fact CREATE man with that capacity but since that CREATIVE act the fall occurred through which man voluntarily and freely forfeited his ability to spiritually hear, see or perceive spiritual things (Rom. 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14). This inabillity was brought upon the world by the sin of one man (Rom. 5:12-19) so that by "ONE MAN'S DISOBEDIENCE" all mankind not only were condemned to death but were made sinners by nature, born with a sinful nature and thus choose to sin due to the nature they were born into this world with.
Only God can provide a NEW heart that is necessary in order for them to spiritually hear, see, perceive anything and necessary for them to be willingly to seek after God.

Jesus said that ONLY those who were granted to be enabled to hear would know the mysteries of the Kingdom, the rest would hear and stay deaf!
Adam had the means to freely hear and respond, but all since his fall had that taken from them!

I agree that the natural, unenlightened man cannot and does not of his own volition seek after and find God and His ways. But I believe that God opens the way to enlightenment by His Word, and especially through the preaching of the Apostolic gospel in its simplicity, clarity and beauty. This is the means, the power that God has made available to turn the hearts of men to hear spiritual thoughts and be motivated into spiritual ways.
Romans 1:16-17 (KJV): 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
John 3:16 (KJV): For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
There is in the above a universal appeal, and no evidence of the Calvinistic view. God is no respecter of persons.

One criteria given for man to receive this gospel is humility, as clearly revealed by Jesus:
Luke 14:34-35,15:1 (KJV): 34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned? 35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. 1 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
This incident is the basis for the three parables of the lost, and the character revealed in the Prodigal or Lost Son is that of humility.

Jesus summarises this necessary quality of humility in the following, and after this there is a universal appeal to respond. Jesus would not call if there is no ability to respond. It is not make believe, but the very means whereby the gospel calls those who are humble, those who are weighed down by the circumstances of life.
Matthew 11:25-30 (KJV): 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Yes it is the Father’s and Jesus’ selection and revelation, but it is on the basis of God’s wisdom, and one criteria which God bases His choice upon is humility and teachableness.

To receive the gospel and be motivated by the Word, one must be teachable.
James 1:21 (KJV): Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Deut. 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

This was Moses’ assessment of the nation as a whole, even after the 40 years wandering in the wilderness.

This is a theme taken up by Isaiah especially in the following:
Isaiah 6:9-10 (KJV): 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Isaiah 49:4-5 (KJV): 4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God. 5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
Isaiah 53:1 (KJV): Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

The above flows through to the citation of Matthew 11:25-30 given above, and to the parable of the sower, where the majority fail to hear, while the humble respond. This theme is also shown at the end of Jesus’ public ministry, where the Jews failed to hear, and the door started to open to the Gentiles, refer John 12, Acts 13. There is no evidence in this that God has completely locked up the ability to hear the gospel.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[The Biblicist]

Q

Greetings again Yeshua1,

I agree that Jesus is the Son of God, whose death provided the means for God to save us. Could you please give me one verse that supports your assertion of “NOTHING in them can respond to that message.”

Romans 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14; Deut. 29:4; Acts 7:51; Jer. 13:23; etc.

There is no such thing as a NATIONAL "heart" - Deut. 29:4

Acts 8:5,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

If I tell you a credible fact, for example 2+2=4 and you believe what I say, is that not a capacity that you have been given by God? Why then do you deny the possibility that when we hear of the death and resurrection of Jesus and the promise of the kingdom of God on earth when he returns, that we have nothing within us that can believe this glad tidings?

The problem is that you simply dismiss the Biblical teaching of an effectual call of God (Rom. 8:30; 1 Cor. 1:26-31) whereby the gospel comes to the elect differently not merely "in word only" (1 Thes. 1:4-5) but in power and in the Holy Spirit as God calls His elect to salvatoin through an empowered gospel (2 Thes. 2:13-14; James 1:18; 2 Cor. 4:6).

The following clearly states that faith comes from hearing, and what we need to hear is the word of God.
Romans 10:17 (KJV): So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The term "word" in verse 17 is "rhema" not "logos" and "rhema" conveys the idea of a word OF COMMAND as in 2 Cor. 4:6 whereby the gospel is empowered by God as a CREATIVE COMMAND that creates light of understanding and reveals God through Christ by the power of God (Gal. 1:15-16).

 

[Yeshua1]

Romans 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14; Deut. 29:4; Acts 7:51; Jer. 13:23; etc.

There is no such thing as a NATIONAL "heart" - Deut. 29:4








The problem is that you simply dismiss the Biblical teaching of an effectual call of God (Rom. 8:30; 1 Cor. 1:26-31) whereby the gospel comes to the elect differently not merely "in word only" (1 Thes. 1:4-5) but in power and in the Holy Spirit as God calls His elect to salvatoin through an empowered gospel (2 Thes. 2:13-14; James 1:18; 2 Cor. 4:6).



The term "word" in verse 17 is "rhema" not "logos" and "rhema" conveys the idea of a word OF COMMAND as in 2 Cor. 4:6 whereby the gospel is empowered by God as a CREATIVE COMMAND that creates light of understanding and reveals God through Christ by the power of God (Gal. 1:15-16).

Yes, as the Gospel IS the very power of God to ALL who are the elect of god, to them the Lord opens their dead and deaf hearts/mids, gives them ears to hear, so that they will turn to Christ and be saved!

the Bible describes us as being at war against the real god, as our sin natures will not submit to him as being the Lord over us, as we all want to play 'god" over our lives!

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again The Biblicist,

I apologise for the delay in responding. I feel the thread has run its course and you are involved with other threads. As usual I have not answered all your statements. Some perhaps in the too difficult for me category, others we simply have a different perspective. The delay was also because I attended a combined weekend with an overseas speaker. I enjoyed the fellowship, meeting with some that I have not seen for a year. Yesterday I needed to relax and refocus, listening to a study of Isaiah 22.

I mentioned in post #31 that I went to a book sale. As well as the book that I mentioned, I also found a book on the subject justification by faith as it is advocated amongst the SDA community. It highlights some of the differences between those who adopt the Luther / Calvin position and those who see the necessity of this justification flowing through to sanctification, but also especially with the SDA view of keeping the 10 Commandments with some emphasis on the Sabbath. Towards the end it focused on the problems of the 1960-70s. It was written by an Anglican who believes in the Luther / Calvin position of justification by faith alone. I only finished reading this 156-page book today. I have had contact with SDAs through work, and I live near the Avondale College / Coorangbong area, where EG White lived later in life. The book reminded me of some of the difficulties that we have had in our own community, and highlighted to me two extremes that I do not accept – justification by faith alone and law keeping. Despite the many SDA citations, there was only occasionally a glimmer in the book of the position that I endorse.

There is no such thing as a NATIONAL "heart" - Deut. 29:4

I was disappointed in your response to my comments on Deuteronomy 29:4. I do not think Moses was saying that they did not understand because they had not received the Holy Spirit. Rather that they had the opportunity to learn God's ways and had the God-given capacity, but they had failed to absorb what was freely available.

Perhaps the following will illustrate the same problem in Isaiah’s day, matching the theme of Isaiah 6:9-10. I also believe that the so-called Christian world has reached this position of not seeking the Word of God, and is ready to be rejected. Part of the problem is the teaching that justification is by faith only, and the life and salvation of the believer is then guaranteed by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Such a doctrine almost negates the need of being sustained by the word of God.
Isaiah 29:9-14 (KJV): 9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink. 10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. 11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: 12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. 13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: 14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[The Biblicist]

Greetings again The Biblicist,

I was disappointed in your response to my comments on Deuteronomy 29:4. I do not think Moses was saying that they did not understand because they had not received the Holy Spirit. Rather that they had the opportunity to learn God's ways and had the God-given capacity, but they had failed to absorb what was freely available.

Your response is almost unbelievable! You are interpreting it in direct flat contradiction to what it explicitly and literally says. It is hopeless to discuss scripture with anyone who does this kind of obvious eisgesis.

The natural depraved state of the heart "always" (Acts 7:51) responds this way. It is like the analogy of the sun and clay versus butter. The same sun but different materials that respond differently to the same sun. The sun hardens the clay but melts the butter. The truth always hardens the unregenerated heart:

Jere. 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Isaiah 64:6 ¶ But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.


Whereas the same sun melts the butter. This is exactly how a regenerated nature responds to the truth. This is the best analogy for both Deuteronomy 29:4 and Isaiah 6.

 

[Yeshua1]

Greetings again The Biblicist,

I apologise for the delay in responding. I feel the thread has run its course and you are involved with other threads. As usual I have not answered all your statements. Some perhaps in the too difficult for me category, others we simply have a different perspective. The delay was also because I attended a combined weekend with an overseas speaker. I enjoyed the fellowship, meeting with some that I have not seen for a year. Yesterday I needed to relax and refocus, listening to a study of Isaiah 22.

I mentioned in post #31 that I went to a book sale. As well as the book that I mentioned, I also found a book on the subject justification by faith as it is advocated amongst the SDA community. It highlights some of the differences between those who adopt the Luther / Calvin position and those who see the necessity of this justification flowing through to sanctification, but also especially with the SDA view of keeping the 10 Commandments with some emphasis on the Sabbath. Towards the end it focused on the problems of the 1960-70s. It was written by an Anglican who believes in the Luther / Calvin position of justification by faith alone. I only finished reading this 156-page book today. I have had contact with SDAs through work, and I live near the Avondale College / Coorangbong area, where EG White lived later in life. The book reminded me of some of the difficulties that we have had in our own community, and highlighted to me two extremes that I do not accept – justification by faith alone and law keeping. Despite the many SDA citations, there was only occasionally a glimmer in the book of the position that I endorse.

I was disappointed in your response to my comments on Deuteronomy 29:4. I do not think Moses was saying that they did not understand because they had not received the Holy Spirit. Rather that they had the opportunity to learn God's ways and had the God-given capacity, but they had failed to absorb what was freely available.

Perhaps the following will illustrate the same problem in Isaiah’s day, matching the theme of Isaiah 6:9-10. I also believe that the so-called Christian world has reached this position of not seeking the Word of God, and is ready to be rejected. Part of the problem is the teaching that justification is by faith only, and the life and salvation of the believer is then guaranteed by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Such a doctrine almost negates the need of being sustained by the word of God.
Isaiah 29:9-14 (KJV): 9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink. 10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. 11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: 12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. 13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: 14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

Kind regards
Trevor

SDA are you a seventh day advantist then?

Do you hold to that"Inverstigative judgement" from the prophetness, irn order to see if found worthy of eternal life?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again The Biblicist and Yeshua1,

Your response is almost unbelievable! You are interpreting it in direct flat contradiction to what it explicitly and literally says. It is hopeless to discuss scripture with anyone who does this kind of obvious eisgesis.
…
Whereas the same sun melts the butter. This is exactly how a regenerated nature responds to the truth. This is the best analogy for both Deuteronomy 29:4 and Isaiah 6.

I am happy to leave this thread here. I appreciate you responses. I have kept a copy for future reference, but we have a different view at the moment.

SDA are you a seventh day advantist then?
Do you hold to that"Inverstigative judgement" from the prophetness, irn order to see if found worthy of eternal life?

No, I am not a SDA. I have had numerous contacts with them over the years, but cannot accept the Sabbath except in the sense of Matthew 11:25-30 and Hebrews 4, and especially do not believe that the earth will be devastated during the 1000 years. I believe that Jesus will return to establish his kingdom on the earth for the 1000 years. It will be a time of refreshing and restoration. Yes there will be judgements, and the figure of burning, or fiery judgement is used, but the net effect will be blessing upon the earth.
Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Kind regards
Trevor