Abrupt US Withdrawal "Utterly Disastrous"

Ed, would you please explain your figure of 170,000 saved American lives?

 

I already did. I said "I have no 'inside' information, ... //
Obviously, I'm guessing. Others will guess otherwise.

What do you think?
Visit my poll at:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=35167

 

Even our own intelligence agencies found absolutely no evidence that terrorist attacks would be launched from Iraq against the US or US interests in the middle east. We've lost 3,000 soldiers there in a war that hasn't saved a single American life, and countless Iraqis have died for what? An American style democracy that will be toppled the moment US troops leave the country, whether that happens in six months or six years?

The time has come for those few of you die hards to realize that our presence in Iraq is a hindrance to the war on terror as well as the stability of the Middle East.
Withdraw tomorrow or withdraw in 2012, the result will be the same.

 

I see the logic, the 9/11 fellas were in school in Florida so we invade Iraq tooooo?? I forgot why we invaded Iraq, oh, because they had weapons of mass destruction.

Didn't I read of training cells in the US?

 

Jack Matthews: //Even our own intelligence agencies found absolutely no evidence that terrorist attacks would be launched from Iraq against the US or US interests in the middle east.//

1. If you know you can't tell.
2. If you tell you can't know.

My guess is that many terrorists went to Iraq (or were already there)
instead of going to other countries. But they went to Iraq because
the USofA and allies were there.

Terrorist actions launched into Iraq were NOT launched against
the US & it's allies.

Jack Matthews: //An American style democracy that will be toppled the moment US troops leave the country, whether that happens in six months or six years?//

I guess you missed my definition of VICTORY in Iraq is
occupancy over SIXTY years???

 

Looking back, I'll have to agree with you, Ed. Terrrorists, whether of the Jihadist or Marxist type, have global goals.
Iraq is simply a proving area for Jihadists after training in their camps. That's where the enemy is, that's where they go.

 

My question remains, and those who care to can attempt to answer:

Win what ? What are we trying to win for whom and why ? And I mean, give down to earth, honest answers. Not empty and hollow cliches like "democracy for the Iraqis" and all that pile of cow dung.

 

The war and then the peace. It is vital to American interests that terrorists be defeated there and that democracy be helped.

Perhaps a reminder of James 3:10 is in order here: With the same mouth we bless God and curse man made in his image. These things ought not so to be.

They are humans made in the image of God. To treat them with the callous disregard you seem to display is unacceptable.

Regardless of whether we should have been there, we are there now and must finish the job.

 

You can't impose democracy by force. It always fails, and your intended beneficiaries end up hating you. And you end up being a tyrant.

That's been true since Athens tried it in ancient Greece. Just doesn't work.

 

Examples, please sir. One a century would be sufficient.

 

I think Iraq is the modern day example. This war is not winnable. I know people don't want to hear it, but it is the truth.

We are fighting against a constant stream of people coming to Iraq with the express purpose of fighting and even dying for this Jihad against the infidels. As long as we are in Iraq there will be terrorists to be killed and American soldiers will die doing so, whether or not we stay there six more days or 600 more years.

These radical Muslims are being bred to die in just such a cause. From the time they are born these children are taught to kill infidels, especially Americans and Jews! They live in squalor and do so by choice. They spend almost nothing to better their society, but they spend millions, if not billions of dollars fighting for Alla and gladly dying in this Jihad.

 

Galatian: //You can't impose democracy by force. ...
That's been true since Athens
tried it in ancient Greece. Just doesn't work.//

Athens wrote the history of Sparta.
The democratic Athens succeded;
the autocratic Sparta failed. Bad example

 

Terry_Herrington: //We are fighting against a constant
stream of people coming to Iraq with the express
purpose of fighting and even dying for this Jihad against the infidels.//

Amen Brother Terry_Herrington.
These same people are going to go somewhere
and kill some American or allies. Better they go to
Iraq than American allies like Saudi Arabi, etc.

 

If a person believes that the U.S. should continue a never-ending war in Iraq as the way to fight this supposed "War on Terror" then you are correct.

I respectfully disagree.

 

I actually agree with this. If it works all the better. But it should not be one of the major objectives in Iraq or anywhere else. Our objective should be the long term security of the US and its interests. Period.

Iraq according to intel was a significant threat in the wake of 9/11.

I don't really care what kind of gov't they end up being satisfied with so long as it is not one that engages in state sponsored efforts to terrorize or otherwise attack the US.

BTW, Iraq is not unwinnable. With some tweaks, I think Sen Biden has a very good plan... kind of like something I said here shortly after the invasion I think. Segment the country into autonomous states forming a confederacy. Let them work it out from there with each possessing enough power to sit at the table.

 

If you are this ignorant about the nature of our enemy then you need to read more. Even realistic Dems know this is a conflict of worldviews and that the Islamists' viewpoint will not allow them to be at peace with us. Their objective is the destruction of everything at odds with their interpretation of Islam.

Islam has a worldview that is shared by virtually all of its adherents. They believe the world must become Muslim and ruled by a Islamic superstate. Some are just more willing to use violent jihad as a means. While some don't want the violence, we have allowed them to be more sympathetic with the enemy than us. They may lament the death and destruction... while very consistently in their own minds be satisfied with the advancement toward the ultimate goal. The enemy seems to be winning. That is a sign to moderate Muslims that maybe Allah is blessing their methods.

Our politicians are playing nice but it is about time someone called the enemy what it is. Evil. And not apologize for it. It is time that mass of peaceful Muslims choose the side of peace so that we can isolate and defeat the enemy. They just about have to come to believe that the only way they will ever achieve their goals is peacefully.

 

Terry_Herrington: //These radical Muslims are being bred to die
in just such a cause. From the time they are born these
children are taught to kill infidels, especially Americans and Jews!//

The western world has been at war with radical Musslemen
since the later 0700s. In the 1970s I had a Baptist Preacher
against birth control (and obviously abortion) because he
though Christians should have as many children as possible
to sacrifice in the war against radical Musslemen (AKA:
the Crusades).

 

Please show me where I ever said we would be able to make peace with Islam? I can save you a little time; I have never said this because I don't believe it! As far as these radical Muslims are concerned there will be no peace.

I agree with this!

You know Scott, just because I don't view the war in Iraq like you do, doesn't mean I don't support fighting the enemy. I just think this war is wrong and is hurting the real war against our enemies.

If you didn't allow your hatred for me, based on our political differences to interfere with your judgment, you might quit making your self look foolish by making unwarranted statements against me like the one above.

 

Then why on earth would you not advocate fighting the enemy in Iraq until he is decisively defeated?

Bush and the Dems need to get together and start calling a spade a spade- stop pretending this is some sort of humanitarian mission to "help the Iraqis". Call it what it is, the front line against an enemy that wants to destroy us and our way of life.

Terry, If I never say anything else you can believe, you can still believe this: I love you. I admittedly don't understand your methods of reasoning but I definitely don't hate you.

 

Only the first part of this statement can be considered. American interests. That has always been the main thing. That was why we were in Vietnam. That was why Dewey grabbed victory from the Filipinos' war against Spain. That is why there have been and always will be banana republics where American interests are found.

But which "American" ?

Is it old Joe walkin' down the street ? Is it farmer Ben working his farm ? Or is it that faceless, uncaring, impersonal, calloused Mr. Big Business.

Ain't the small guy, that much I can tell ya all. Our troops' blood are flowing for Mr. Big Business' sake.

Believe me, in another setting I would feed them, take the shirt off my back and that of my wife's and kids when I have to. But right now, they are showing they are not worth the sacrifice our Marines and soldiers are doing over there.

So, like Toyota used to say: You asked for it, you got it !