Absolute predestinarian Primitve Baptist Churches in N.C.

[OldSchool]

Hello all, I'm a newbie here so please bare with me because I'm sure some of these topics have been discussed before. I recently saw an old thread (2003 maybe) about the great gulf between various primitive baptist Churches. I'm not really posting this for the purpose of Theological discussion because I've heard all the arguments on both sides of this gulf... If you ask my humble opinion, They are looking at two different sides of the same coin.. The great Gulf I speak of is Limited predestination/Conditional time Salvation on one side of the gulf and Absolute predestination/Sovereign Sanctification in time on the other side.

The purpose in this post is to ask the question: Are there currently any Primitive Baptist Churches Preaching and Teaching Absolute predestination of all things in North Carolina? If so, Where? Thanks

 

[ktn4eg]

Old School,

First of all, welcome aboard Baptist Board! :wavey:

As to your OP's question, I wish that I could help you out on it, but, alas, I'm from the VOLUNTEER state [the REALLY{!} western part of NC!!:smilewinkgrin::laugh:], thus I can't help you. OTOH, we've got several people from the Tar Heel state here on BB who may be able to help you discover what you're looking for.

God Bless you and yours! :thumbsup:

 

[Yeshua1]

Hello all, I'm a newbie here so please bare with me because I'm sure some of these topics have been discussed before. I recently saw an old thread (2003 maybe) about the great gulf between various primitive baptist Churches. I'm not really posting this for the purpose of Theological discussion because I've heard all the arguments on both sides of this gulf... If you ask my humble opinion, They are looking at two different sides of the same coin.. The great Gulf I speak of is Limited predestination/Conditional time Salvation on one side of the gulf and Absolute predestination/Sovereign Sanctification in time on the other side.

The purpose in this post is to ask the question: Are there currently any Primitive Baptist Churches Preaching and Teaching Absolute predestination of all things in North Carolina? If so, Where? Thanks

"The great Gulf I speak of is Limited predestination/Conditional time Salvation on one side of the gulf and Absolute predestination/Sovereign Sanctification in time on the other side."

what did you mean by that phrase?

 

[OldSchool]

Thanks Brother, I have been on a journey from Synergism to Finally (Absolute)Monergism over the past 12 years as I've been given eyes to see my own sinfulness and inability to do anything good or right except what Christ worketh in me and I dare not take credit for that or try to bask in some of the Glory that is due to Christ and Christ alone. Having said that, I'm currently attending a primitive Baptist Church that believes in Limited Predestination/(and by necessity) Conditional Time salvation. I love the brethren and am content to stay and fellowship with them. However, It is becoming clear that for some it is an actual test of fellowship so I'm looking around.

 

[OldSchool]

"The great Gulf I speak of is Limited predestination/Conditional time Salvation on one side of the gulf and Absolute predestination/Sovereign Sanctification in time on the other side."

what did you mean by that phrase?

Like I prefaced the original post, I really don't intend for this to turn into a Theological Debate because I see that men much more qualified than me have already covered the same ground. But, I will take a stab at your question.

There are two factions if you will within the Primitive Baptist Churches.

1. Limited predestination: They believe that predestination involves the elect only, and their Eternal Salvation only and that it does not include God's sovereignty ruling over their day to day lives. Therefore, since Predestination/ Foreordination involves only their eternal destiny then their daily affairs whether obedience or disobedience are left entirely up to the human. They teach that the majority of verses dealing with salvation refer only to salvation from the dangers and pit falls of sin. They maintain that while Eternal Salvation is fixed and sure. Temporal Salvation in this world are left up to the believer. To this end, obedience is optional. Even conversion is optional and totally removes Christ's Sanctifying work in this present world. This makes the "tares" or "evil birds" or "bad fish" spoken of by Christ merely disobedient Children of God.



2. Absolute Predestination:They believe much like the first group that God Sovereignly and independently Wrote the names in the Lamb's book of life before the world began. And that Christ Died for HIS people. However, in contrast, they maintain that Christ not only secured the Eternal aspect of their Salvation he also Secured their Sanctification (setting apart for himself) in this present world. They take a much stronger stance on Predestination and that God's Eternal unswerving Counsel is the first cause of all causes. They don't believe that God merely LOOKED into the future to see what was going to come to pass, but something much much more. To look into the future and then make prophecies concerning what he saw would make him a student of sorts and that he would have LEARNED something which we KNOW is NOT the case. Predestination is not Causitive, but rather GOD is the first cause of all causes. They believe that Simple Foreknowledge proves predestination. When God foresaw something was he correct in what he saw? OF COURSE HE WAS. Then it will come to pass EXACTLY as he saw it and nothing wavering.

I'm sure I haven't done a very good job but that is my comprehension of the two doctrines.

There are some super loving people on both sides and caution must be taken not to deal with each person assuming that they rigidly believe exactly what I've written regardless of which stance they take. I do believe that these are the logical conclusions when you "plow each ditch" far enough

 

[pinoybaptist]

Old School, are you Primitive Baptist ? if so, what church, where, and who's your pastor ?
your profile says you're a member of a Sovereign Grace Baptist Church, and that church, as far as I know (which isn't really very far, lol) is not a Primitive Baptist church.
as for your question, like I used to say when I was in tech support: Google is your best friend.

 

[OldSchool]

Yes Sir, I used to go to a Church called Sovereign Grace Baptist Church in Salisbury but I found that the "sovereign" wasn't quite Sovereign enough Anyway that Church was absorbed into a larger Church and I began to attend Primitive Baptist Churches in my area. This was about 2 years ago. I have not yet placed membership with any new Church but Love Going to Flat Creek

 

[Yeshua1]

Old School, are you Primitive Baptist ? if so, what church, where, and who's your pastor ?
your profile says you're a member of a Sovereign Grace Baptist Church, and that church, as far as I know (which isn't really very far, lol) is not a Primitive Baptist church.
as for your question, like I used to say when I was in tech support: Google is your best friend.

just a questionfor you, as you are PB, correct?

Do you hold that those electedto be saved by God will in the end be savedm even if never heard of jesus, not accepted him while alive?

 

[Yeshua1]

Like I prefaced the original post, I really don't intend for this to turn into a Theological Debate because I see that men much more qualified than me have already covered the same ground. But, I will take a stab at your question.

There are two factions if you will within the Primitive Baptist Churches.

1. Limited predestination: They believe that predestination involves the elect only, and their Eternal Salvation only and that it does not include God's sovereignty ruling over their day to day lives. Therefore, since Predestination/ Foreordination involves only their eternal destiny then their daily affairs whether obedience or disobedience are left entirely up to the human. They teach that the majority of verses dealing with salvation refer only to salvation from the dangers and pit falls of sin. They maintain that while Eternal Salvation is fixed and sure. Temporal Salvation in this world are left up to the believer. To this end, obedience is optional. Even conversion is optional and totally removes Christ's Sanctifying work in this present world. This makes the "tares" or "evil birds" or "bad fish" spoken of by Christ merely disobedient Children of God.



2. Absolute Predestination:They believe much like the first group that God Sovereignly and independently Wrote the names in the Lamb's book of life before the world began. And that Christ Died for HIS people. However, in contrast, they maintain that Christ not only secured the Eternal aspect of their Salvation he also Secured their Sanctification (setting apart for himself) in this present world. They take a much stronger stance on Predestination and that God's Eternal unswerving Counsel is the first cause of all causes. They don't believe that God merely LOOKED into the future to see what was going to come to pass, but something much much more. To look into the future and then make prophecies concerning what he saw would make him a student of sorts and that he would have LEARNED something which we KNOW is NOT the case. Predestination is not Causitive, but rather GOD is the first cause of all causes. They believe that Simple Foreknowledge proves predestination. When God foresaw something was he correct in what he saw? OF COURSE HE WAS. Then it will come to pass EXACTLY as he saw it and nothing wavering.

I'm sure I haven't done a very good job but that is my comprehension of the two doctrines.

There are some super loving people on both sides and caution must be taken not to deal with each person assuming that they rigidly believe exactly what I've written regardless of which stance they take. I do believe that these are the logical conclusions when you "plow each ditch" far enough

thanks!

Are you saying here that one position views God predestinating all that ever happens directly, so that there is no will involved by Human beings at all in making/doing decisions and actions?

 

[pinoybaptist]

just a questionfor you, as you are PB, correct?

Do you hold that those electedto be saved by God will in the end be savedm even if never heard of jesus, not accepted him while alive?

If we are talking about the salvation wrought by Christ at the cross here in time, and covenanted by the Great One in Three to Himself in eternity past, or as the Bible phrases it, from the foundation of the world, then yes, because that salvation is totally passive on the part of those for whom it was authored.

 

[Yeshua1]

If we are talking about the salvation wrought by Christ at the cross here in time, and covenanted by the Great One in Three to Himself in eternity past, or as the Bible phrases it, from the foundation of the world, then yes, because that salvation is totally passive on the part of those for whom it was authored.

So your PB view would be that if a chosen/elected sinner neverreceived/heard about jesus, they would miss out the benefits of knowing Him in this life, but haveall the fullness of salvation fetr death?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

1st & foremost, welcome to the board.....glad to see we Old School Baptists are well represented.

My friend in Pikes County indicated that the Old Regular Baptists around him have a church or two like that but thats probably a drive for you. Have you looked at those Brothers?

Funny I was just reading The Oliphant-Durand exchanges too. :thumbs:

 

[OldSchool]

just a questionfor you, as you are PB, correct?

Do you hold that those electedto be saved by God will in the end be savedm even if never heard of jesus, not accepted him while alive?

I cannot Rightly Call myself a Primitive Baptist at this point because I have not been "re-baptized" in a Primitive Baptist Church. theologically however, I believe in Primitive Baptist principles. Which I have spent a considerable amount of time studying.

I believe that the only way one CAN believe on Jesus Christ is if Eternal Life has ALREADY been imparted to him. Believing is a work of GOD. Faith is a gift from GOD not something conjured up in man.

I once heard a story that took place about 200 years ago. There was an African tribesman who belonged to a tribe that worshiped a tree stump that Lightning had hit and burned. He did this for years until one day. All at once he was internally convicted that worshiping the stump was terribly wrong and that he should be worshiping the God that made the lightning AND the tree. He did this despite heavy persecution from his peers. He worshiped an unknown god. Later, he was captured and sold into slavery and came to Amercia. Once he was given liberties he heard a preacher speak of Jesus and his Completed work on the cross. He heard of wonderful pardon. He heard of all the wonderful attributes of the Saviour. All at once the realization shot through him like electricity! Jesus was the GOD in whom he once ignorantly worshiped!

While most folks believe he was not Saved UNTIL he believed on Jesus and had a full understanding of his Character and work, The Old Baptists Believe he was saved LONG before his realization of who did his saving.

Just like the Thief on the cross. At first both malfactors railed against Jesus. Then, suddenly one of them had a change of heart! He called him LORD! He recognized Jesus had a kingdom! Where did the change come from? There certainly was not a preacher handy with a Bible in his had quoting scripture. He was Quickened by God.

What about infants? They can't understand the Gospel. What about mentally handicapped folks?

We believe Christ Actually Secured the Salvation of all those whose names were written in the Lamb's book of life.

To more directly answer the question: I think that All of the elect will come to know who saved them in some capacity or another.

But who would dare to say that when they die they will have a complete and firm understanding of Christology?

Not me.

Primitives believe that Christ does not need any help populating heaven....:thumbs:

 

[pinoybaptist]

Yes Sir, I used to go to a Church called Sovereign Grace Baptist Church in Salisbury but I found that the "sovereign" wasn't quite Sovereign enough Anyway that Church was absorbed into a larger Church and I began to attend Primitive Baptist Churches in my area. This was about 2 years ago. I have not yet placed membership with any new Church but Love Going to Flat Creek

Flat Creek, uhmmmm.....google says the pastor is elder Gene Hogan....okay, well, you got somethings a little skewered, I think, (unless it's me who's skewered....lol...don't even know if that's the right word), but let me discuss that with the correct "quote"....

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You and I brother are on the same page:thumbsup:

 

[pinoybaptist]

So your PB view would be that if a chosen/elected sinner neverreceived/heard about jesus, they would miss out the benefits of knowing Him in this life, but haveall the fullness of salvation fetr death?

that's what Paul said, if I may say.....2 Timothy 1:9-10
that God's elect was given grace in Christ Jesus BEFORE the world began, and the gospel merely brings to light life and immortality which they ALREADY have.
and Paul never rebutted himself by stating that that life and immortality puffs off if the possessor never hears the gospel here in time.

 

[OldSchool]

thanks!

Are you saying here that one position views God predestinating all that ever happens directly, so that there is no will involved by Human beings at all in making/doing decisions and actions?

Yes, the Absolute Predestinarian View is that God hath before decreed all that will ever come to pass. That is how each event has unfolded EXACTLY as was prophesied many years before. They maintain this position and VEHEMENTLY DENY that:

1: God is the Author of sin

2: Men are blocks of wood or robots forced to do things

Again, they VERY MUCH DENY the two common accusations above. They are heresies

While the decision is in front of you.. You have a choice to make

Once the decision has come to pass, it was the decision that was before ordained to come to pass.

Paradox? I don't think so :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I cannot Rightly Call myself a Primitive Baptist at this point because I have not been "re-baptized" in a Primitive Baptist Church. theologically however, I believe in Primitive Baptist principles. Which I have spent a considerable amount of time studying.

I believe that the only way one CAN believe on Jesus Christ is if Eternal Life has ALREADY been imparted to him. Believing is a work of GOD. Faith is a gift from GOD not something conjured up in man.

I once heard a story that took place about 200 years ago. There was an African tribesman who belonged to a tribe that worshiped a tree stump that Lightning had hit and burned. He did this for years until one day. All at once he was internally convicted that worshiping the stump was terribly wrong and that he should be worshiping the God that made the lightning AND the tree. He did this despite heavy persecution from his peers. He worshiped an unknown god. Later, he was captured and sold into slavery and came to Amercia. Once he was given liberties he heard a preacher speak of Jesus and his Completed work on the cross. He heard of wonderful pardon. He heard of all the wonderful attributes of the Saviour. All at once the realization shot through him like electricity! Jesus was the GOD in whom he once ignorantly worshiped!

While most folks believe he was not Saved UNTIL he believed on Jesus and had a full understanding of his Character and work, The Old Baptists Believe he was saved LONG before his realization of who did his saving.

Just like the Thief on the cross. At first both malfactors railed against Jesus. Then, suddenly one of them had a change of heart! He called him LORD! He recognized Jesus had a kingdom! Where did the change come from? There certainly was not a preacher handy with a Bible in his had quoting scripture. He was Quickened by God.

What about infants? They can't understand the Gospel. What about mentally handicapped folks?

We believe Christ Actually Secured the Salvation of all those whose names were written in the Lamb's book of life.

To more directly answer the question: I think that All of the elect will come to know who saved them in some capacity or another.

But who would dare to say that when they die they will have a complete and firm understanding of Christology?

Not me.

Primitives believe that Christ does not need any help populating heaven....:thumbs:

But now I am curious brother, and w/o running off on a tangent, since you are an Absoluter, do you believe God has “…wrought all our works in us?"

 

[OldSchool]

Flat Creek, uhmmmm.....google says the pastor is elder Gene Hogan....okay, well, you got somethings a little skewered, I think, (unless it's me who's skewered....lol...don't even know if that's the right word), but let me discuss that with the correct "quote"....

Just for clarification: Sovereign Grace Baptist Church was NOT a primitive baptist Church. It is now dissolved. Also, The current Preacher at Flat Creek Primitive Baptist is brother Wayne Gravely. Very good man. They DO NOT believe in Absolute Predestination but I do attend there and feel at home. I try not to make these issues a point of contention amongst the bretheren. :jesus:

 

[pinoybaptist]

...................
There are two factions if you will within the Primitive Baptist Churches.

Three really, if I may say, but it's just me saying this because this third one is right now limited to a certain city in Indiana, but we all know how error is like water, it seeks gravity....this faction is a no-heller....

1. Limited predestination: They believe that predestination involves the elect only, and their Eternal Salvation only and that it does not include God's sovereignty ruling over their day to day lives. Therefore, since Predestination/ Foreordination involves only their eternal destiny then their daily affairs whether obedience or disobedience are left entirely up to the human. They teach that the majority of verses dealing with salvation refer only to salvation from the dangers and pit falls of sin. They maintain that while Eternal Salvation is fixed and sure. Temporal Salvation in this world are left up to the believer. To this end, obedience is optional. Even conversion is optional and totally removes Christ's Sanctifying work in this present world. This makes the "tares" or "evil birds" or "bad fish" spoken of by Christ merely disobedient Children of God.

Well, in the first place, tares or bad fish, just like goats, are not God's children.
They are not part of the elect, never were, because as you see from the Bible, Christ never called His elect goats. to Him, they were always "sheep", and likewise, His elect are to him "wheat".
If we say the disobedient children are the tares, then we teach election as inconsequential.
what does it matter if you're elect or not if in the end your disobedience will still burn you along with the unelect ?
Any shepherd, anywhere, will tell us, I believe, that there ARE hard-headed sheep who seem to be a little bit more stupid than the rest.

We also preach that obedience is NOT OPTIONAL, or at least I do, and so do my pastor, oh, heck, yeah, OUR church does. lol.
You obey the gospel and follow its teachings, you reap the benefits of obedience, natural benefits, you know, good things that flow out of obedience.

You be hard-headed and goat-like, well you reap the fruits of disobedience and sin.
It's natural, these blessings of obedience.
They are not tit-for-tat.
You walk away from the source of life, you darken.
You walk away from water, you dry up.
You commit adultery, well, remember David ?

There you go, ya'll been warned.
That's God's way with His children.
Read the "if you do this, then I will do this" in the Book of Law and we'll see that's how God deals with His people.