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Absolute Predestination of ALL THINGS
- Thread starter Sovereign Grace
- Start date
On the other side of the issue of The Absolute Predestination of All Things we have Gilbert Beebe:
Dr. Berrian:
I am not an absolute predestinarian, but, pray tell, where are your scriptures to support that:
* God tested, and not commanded, the couple in the garden ?
* God was simply testing Lucifer ?
*God limited His sovereignty with regards to the devil and to mankind ?
* That there are "offers and counteroffers" between God and humankind ?
Christopher
New Member
Brethren,
What are your thoughts on these passages of Scripture?
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6)
Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way? (Prov. 20:24)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Is. 45:7)
Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not? Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Lam. 3:37, 38)
[ May 05, 2002, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: Christopher ]
What are your thoughts on these passages of Scripture?
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6)
Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way? (Prov. 20:24)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Is. 45:7)
Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not? Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Lam. 3:37, 38)
[ May 05, 2002, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: Christopher ]
Historic Baptist said:And yes, God does make bad things happen sometimes. I would like to address this in a way that has not been looked at but is so close to home! Did God in his Absolute Predestination cause the tragedy of 9/11? He could have by divine intervention prevented it as he had done so many times thoughout human history! The way I understand it that God does not make bad things happen but permits it for his own will and purpose, which is beyond our sinful understanding.
If I believe in the absolute predestination of all thing that would mean God is the guilty for causing Adam and Eve to sin as they could not help not to. Not only that he crucified his own Son who came of his will to save his people from their sins.
Chris scriptural quote was
Brethren IMHO God does not predestinate all things but he told Satan regarding one of his servants... Hast thou considered my servant... You can put you own name here if you like because you're are being considered!... Brother Glen
[ May 06, 2002, 01:21 AM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
If I believe in the absolute predestination of all thing that would mean God is the guilty for causing Adam and Eve to sin as they could not help not to. Not only that he crucified his own Son who came of his will to save his people from their sins.
Chris scriptural quote was
This quote is from John Gill:I make peace, and create evil; peace between God and men is made by Christ, who is God over all; spiritual peace of conscience comes from God, through Christ, by the Spirit; eternal glory and happiness is of God, which saints enter into at death; peace among the saints themselves here, and with the men of the world; peace in churches, and in the world, God is the author of, even of all prosperity of every kind, which this word includes: "evil" is also from him; not the evil of sin; this is not to be found among the creatures God made; this is of men, though suffered by the Lord, and overruled by him for good: but the evil of punishment for sin, God's sore judgments, famine, pestilence, evil beasts, and the sword, or war, which latter may more especially be intended, as it is opposed to peace; this usually is the effect of sin; may be sometimes lawfully engaged in; whether on a good or bad foundation is permitted by God; moreover, all afflictions, adversities, and calamities, come under this name, and are of God;
Brethren IMHO God does not predestinate all things but he told Satan regarding one of his servants... Hast thou considered my servant... You can put you own name here if you like because you're are being considered!... Brother Glen
[ May 06, 2002, 01:21 AM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
if God so designed that His sovereignty will dominate over man's free will, how come then did Adam ate the forbidden fruit? If it's Adam's fault, then God really did not choose to have his sovereignty above that of Adam's volition. Otherwise, it would mean that God, indirectly or not, would have caused Adam to sin.
KJV1611only
New Member
First of all to see if God's will is put above that of man lets first see if God Can lie.
Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
So God cannot lie. Can God tempt man with Evil?
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
So God Cannot tepmt man to do evil. So does GOd predestine all things? all things include sin. so NO he has nothing to do with people sinning.
Can God's will be changed by man? Yes it can.
For example. what did GOD say in Jeremiah 18?
Jeremiah 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
Does God predestine those people to do evil no..does he predestine them to do his will? No. he gives choices and chances
Jeremiah 26:3 If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.
As in the case of Nineveh.
Jonah 3:4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh SHALL be overthrown.
can God lie? no. Has he decreed that Nineveh shall be destroyed? that is his judgement which he intends to carry out.
Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
Did God predestine these people to be saved? NO he was going to destroy them unless you think God just lied about what he was going to do. but they (the people) repented, and God spared them.
God repents. is that a God who has predestined ALL THINGS? if something is predestined it cannot be changed yet God's heart is changed by the actions of men.
Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
So God cannot lie. Can God tempt man with Evil?
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
So God Cannot tepmt man to do evil. So does GOd predestine all things? all things include sin. so NO he has nothing to do with people sinning.
Can God's will be changed by man? Yes it can.
For example. what did GOD say in Jeremiah 18?
Jeremiah 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
Does God predestine those people to do evil no..does he predestine them to do his will? No. he gives choices and chances
Jeremiah 26:3 If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.
As in the case of Nineveh.
Jonah 3:4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh SHALL be overthrown.
can God lie? no. Has he decreed that Nineveh shall be destroyed? that is his judgement which he intends to carry out.
Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
Did God predestine these people to be saved? NO he was going to destroy them unless you think God just lied about what he was going to do. but they (the people) repented, and God spared them.
God repents. is that a God who has predestined ALL THINGS? if something is predestined it cannot be changed yet God's heart is changed by the actions of men.
So I presume you do not believe Mal 3:6, Num 23:19, and James 1:17?
This is what Jeff Weaver said about absolute predestination on another thread of the same name.
Those brethren who believe in the doctrine of election should have no argument with what Brother Weaver said. Not only that scripture will back it up!... Brother Glen
KJV1611only
New Member
So I presume you do not believe Mal 3:6, Num 23:19, and James 1:17?
Hi Larry, Yes I do belive every single word. God's word is pure and infalliable. it is perfect without error or contradiction.
Numbers 23:17
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man that he should repent: he hath said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken and shall he not make good?
Behold, I have recieved commandment to bless: and he hath blessed; I can not reverse it.
Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not; there fore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of Hosts. BUT ye said, wherein shall we return?
James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of returning.
I belive every word. I don't understand your point though. You read what God said in Jeremiah.. God said He would repent of the evil if that nation whom he pronounced judgement against turned to him.
nations are made up of people. and then you have one book of the Bible dedicated to God pronouncung Judgement upon wicked ungodly unsaved unregenerated men. and were upon hearing the Judgement that was comimg, those same wicked unregenerated men, turned to God and God repented of what he was going to do. What do you do with that?
It appears we have a problem. God pronounced judgement against a wicked city. he told them they shall be overthrown. They took it upon themselves to repent and turn to God. and God spared them.
so either predestination of all things is a lie or the Bible contradicts itself in numerous places and is a lie.
For every verse you can find to up hold your posotion I can find ones to show you where the actions of men turned Gods heart away from wrath, Nineveah being one place. you can't have two opposing doctrines being taught in the Bible now can you?
Hi Larry, Yes I do belive every single word. God's word is pure and infalliable. it is perfect without error or contradiction.
Numbers 23:17
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man that he should repent: he hath said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken and shall he not make good?
Behold, I have recieved commandment to bless: and he hath blessed; I can not reverse it.
Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not; there fore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of Hosts. BUT ye said, wherein shall we return?
James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of returning.
I belive every word. I don't understand your point though. You read what God said in Jeremiah.. God said He would repent of the evil if that nation whom he pronounced judgement against turned to him.
nations are made up of people. and then you have one book of the Bible dedicated to God pronouncung Judgement upon wicked ungodly unsaved unregenerated men. and were upon hearing the Judgement that was comimg, those same wicked unregenerated men, turned to God and God repented of what he was going to do. What do you do with that?
It appears we have a problem. God pronounced judgement against a wicked city. he told them they shall be overthrown. They took it upon themselves to repent and turn to God. and God spared them.
so either predestination of all things is a lie or the Bible contradicts itself in numerous places and is a lie.
For every verse you can find to up hold your posotion I can find ones to show you where the actions of men turned Gods heart away from wrath, Nineveah being one place. you can't have two opposing doctrines being taught in the Bible now can you?
I actually addressed this to Frank but since you responded:
Most understanding the "repentance" of God to be an anthropormorphism. I have no problem with it at all. I do not believe it contradicts the immutability of God. Furthermore, to suggest Frank's view of repentance would mean that God did not know all things from eternity past (since he said he was going to do something he presumably would have known he was never going to do) and thus the whole idea of election on prescience falls apart. I think it demonstrates once again the neceessity of a coherent system of truth as revealed in Scripture. Once we start making all kinds of exceptions, we end up with ends that we do not want to go to.
I realize there are tensions in theology but I thinbk we should interpret the unclear passages (repentance of God) in light of the clear one (I the Lord do not change).
My point is simple. Scripture unequivocally declares that God does not change. Frank says that the idea of repent clearly means that God does change. So either 1) Scripture is wrong and Frank's understanding of repentance is right or 2) Scripture is right and Frank's understanding of repentance is wrong.
Most understanding the "repentance" of God to be an anthropormorphism. I have no problem with it at all. I do not believe it contradicts the immutability of God. Furthermore, to suggest Frank's view of repentance would mean that God did not know all things from eternity past (since he said he was going to do something he presumably would have known he was never going to do) and thus the whole idea of election on prescience falls apart. I think it demonstrates once again the neceessity of a coherent system of truth as revealed in Scripture. Once we start making all kinds of exceptions, we end up with ends that we do not want to go to.
I realize there are tensions in theology but I thinbk we should interpret the unclear passages (repentance of God) in light of the clear one (I the Lord do not change).
Larry:
God does not change his NATURE.( MAL. 3:6). God has always been merciful and longsuffering.( IPetr. 3:9). It is a part of his unchangeable nature that he restores man to his good favor when he repents of his sins. Therefore, his justice is served by his own will and nature when he changes his mind ( refuses to condememmn man) for trangressions he leaves.Again, the nature of God must be understood. The word repent means God deferred his righteous indignation because man repented of his sins. God is merciful. Psalms 136 the whole chapter.
Frank
God does not change his NATURE.( MAL. 3:6). God has always been merciful and longsuffering.( IPetr. 3:9). It is a part of his unchangeable nature that he restores man to his good favor when he repents of his sins. Therefore, his justice is served by his own will and nature when he changes his mind ( refuses to condememmn man) for trangressions he leaves.Again, the nature of God must be understood. The word repent means God deferred his righteous indignation because man repented of his sins. God is merciful. Psalms 136 the whole chapter.
Frank
Larry:
I never said God did not know all things nor did I say he was not omniscient,or omnipresent. In fact , I posted the scriptures about such.(Psalms 139:1-11). However not changing must be understood in the context of the nature of God. In other words, the character of God. God could have destroyed man after the first transgression, He did not. God is merciful. This is a part of the unchangeable God. It is his charcter that is flawless and never changing.
To say God never changed anything would contradict the whole scheme of redemption. God knew all along he would not justify through the patriarchy, old testament law but IN and through the blood of Christ.(Gal. 3:22-24, IPet. 1: 17,18).
God is unchangeable in his nature, not in his will toward man. The scheme or will of God for the redemption of man reveals this. God is eternal. His nature does not change.However, his will for man has throughout the three dispensations of time. I understand this to be true in the revealed will of God toward man. It is the sum total that makes truth.(Psalms 119:160).
I am not trying to argue with anyone for the sake of arguementation. It is not just an academic exercise for me, but my humble desire to stand on the stump of truth. I mean no personal animosity toward anyone whether they be Calvinist,Lutheran or any other ist or ism. If I am misunderstood or unclear on somethings to people, it may be said that I feel the same toward them at times.
Larry, you questioned me about baptismal regeneration, I do not beleive there is any POWER IN THE WATER. It is the power of the Gospel of the grace of God that redeems when men obey the will of God.(Hebrews 5:8,9, Eph.2:8,9; Gal. 3:26,27). I believe that men must have an active faith in receiving the grace that saves. Baptism is just a part of that manifestation of faith. I am not trying to start any discussion on this thread. I am just clarifying the position I hold. Have a good day.
Frank
I never said God did not know all things nor did I say he was not omniscient,or omnipresent. In fact , I posted the scriptures about such.(Psalms 139:1-11). However not changing must be understood in the context of the nature of God. In other words, the character of God. God could have destroyed man after the first transgression, He did not. God is merciful. This is a part of the unchangeable God. It is his charcter that is flawless and never changing.
To say God never changed anything would contradict the whole scheme of redemption. God knew all along he would not justify through the patriarchy, old testament law but IN and through the blood of Christ.(Gal. 3:22-24, IPet. 1: 17,18).
God is unchangeable in his nature, not in his will toward man. The scheme or will of God for the redemption of man reveals this. God is eternal. His nature does not change.However, his will for man has throughout the three dispensations of time. I understand this to be true in the revealed will of God toward man. It is the sum total that makes truth.(Psalms 119:160).
I am not trying to argue with anyone for the sake of arguementation. It is not just an academic exercise for me, but my humble desire to stand on the stump of truth. I mean no personal animosity toward anyone whether they be Calvinist,Lutheran or any other ist or ism. If I am misunderstood or unclear on somethings to people, it may be said that I feel the same toward them at times.
Larry, you questioned me about baptismal regeneration, I do not beleive there is any POWER IN THE WATER. It is the power of the Gospel of the grace of God that redeems when men obey the will of God.(Hebrews 5:8,9, Eph.2:8,9; Gal. 3:26,27). I believe that men must have an active faith in receiving the grace that saves. Baptism is just a part of that manifestation of faith. I am not trying to start any discussion on this thread. I am just clarifying the position I hold. Have a good day.
Frank
Then you are no longer welcome to post here since you have added to the requirements for salvation. Baptism is not a manifestation of faith. It is an act of obedience following salvation.Originally posted by Frank:
Larry, you questioned me about baptismal regeneration, I do not beleive there is any POWER IN THE WATER. It is the power of the Gospel of the grace of God that redeems when men obey the will of God.(Hebrews 5:8,9, Eph.2:8,9; Gal. 3:26,27). I believe that men must have an active faith in receiving the grace that saves. Baptism is just a part of that manifestation of faith. I am not trying to start any discussion on this thread. I am just clarifying the position I hold. Have a good day.
Christopher
New Member
And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations? (Jeremiah 7:10)
And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart. (Jeremiah 7:31)
Absolute predestination of ALL things???
[ May 08, 2002, 11:12 PM: Message edited by: Christopher ]
And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart. (Jeremiah 7:31)
Absolute predestination of ALL things???
[ May 08, 2002, 11:12 PM: Message edited by: Christopher ]
Ray Berrian
New Member
Christopher,
May 8th post was an excellent one. I personally, like it when people stay on point and are Biblical.
May 8th post was an excellent one. I personally, like it when people stay on point and are Biblical.
Christopher
New Member
Does anyone know any good articles on the absolute predestination of all things? I am not completely pursuaded by the whole thing, but it's interesting
It seems to me that if a parent of a small child is killed in an accident and the child asks you "was this God's will"? You must say yes. God saw it was going to happen yet did not stop it, thus God's will was done.
Did God not see it coming? Then you have even bigger problems.
Say the driver was drunk, was it God's will that this man be a drunk? God allowed the man to become a drunk and kill the mother. Maybe God uses all circumstances and molds them to achieve his ultimate purpose.
Tough questions, maybe we will never fully understand this side of eternity.
Did God not see it coming? Then you have even bigger problems.
Say the driver was drunk, was it God's will that this man be a drunk? God allowed the man to become a drunk and kill the mother. Maybe God uses all circumstances and molds them to achieve his ultimate purpose.
Tough questions, maybe we will never fully understand this side of eternity.