Abu Mazen

[KenH]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
IOW, the Palestinians should be forced to bring about democratic and human rights reforms among their people before they are given that state.

Absolutely.

 

[church mouse guy]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
You are exactly right on, CMG!

I don't know how you posted that map but it is exactly the point and I thank you!

This crisis is an Arab-manufactured crisis. Gaza belonged to Egypt and the Bank belonged to Jordan. The Bank cannot be returned; Israel has decided to pull out of Gaza. Therefore Gaza should be returned to Egypt and the Arabs living in Israel should be encouraged to sell out and move to another part of the vast Arab League, as illustrated by the map that Lady Eagle has posted!

 

[LadyEagle]

Well, it looks like Ken and Joseph have cast their votes for the old Arab land grab scenario. After all, that's how they got most of what they have now - through terrorism tactics.

LIBYA: The Arab invasion of the 7th century brought Islam to the country, where it remains firmly entrenched to this day.

Source

EGYPT:When the empire fell apart Nubians, north Africans and Persians invaded, although Egypt remained relatively stable until AD 640 when the Arabs arrived, bringing Islam.

Source

SUDAN:Muhammad Ahmad, the son of a Dongola boat-builder, was born in 1844. He grew into a soft-spoken mystic and soon retired to Aba Island, 150 miles south of Khartoum, to live the life of a religious recluse, proclaiming himself in 1881 to be the Mahdi, the second great prophet. The tribes of the west rallied to the Mahdi's call for a war against the infidels and despots and, early in 1884, the Mahdi was master of all Sudan save Khartoum.

Source

ALGERIA:The introduction of Islam and Arabic had a profound impact on North Africa (or the Maghrib) beginning in the seventh century. The new religion and language introduced changes in social and economic relations, established links with a rich culture, and provided a powerful idiom of political discourse and organization. From the great Berber dynasties of the Almoravids and Almohads to the militants seeking an Islamic state in the 1990s, the call to return to true Islamic values and practices has had social resonance and political power.

Source

SYRIA:Between 633 and 640, Muslim Arabs conquered Syria, and during the following centuries most Syrians converted to Islam.

Source

That's all I have time to document right now, but discerning readers will see the truth for themselves. This is the Third Jihad.

[ January 16, 2005, 08:01 AM: Message edited by: LadyEagle ]

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

LE,

Ken and I are casting our vote for Democracy, Human right, an end to the terrorism, and peace. You really should not misrepresent what we say. That isn't nice, and somewhat unbecoming of a moderator. I have in no way endorsed merely giving the Palestinians any land as they stand right now. I have endorsed reciprocity. You see, some of us care more about peace over there than we do in fullfilling some silly pre-mill Christian Zionist plan. I have made it clear that the mistakes of Oslo should not be repeated. They should not get anything untill they change. Truthfully, I don't think you want them to have peace over there. Everything you advocate goes counter to the idea. It seems more that you are interested in fullfilling some zionist escatology.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Bro. Curtis]

It's not looking good.....

ARTICLE

Remember, the Al Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades is the official “armed wing” of the political party whose leader was just elected chairman of the Palestinian Authority. The people who did this belong to Mahmoud Abbas/Abu Mazen’s own political organization.

And ole' Dubya, in his "reaching out" to heal the "wounds" of his first term, just invited him to the White House.

 

[LadyEagle]

They will never change, Joseph. You are either for the Nation of Israel or for the Islamic terrorists of Palestine. You cannot have it both ways. Jerusalem belongs to the nation of Israel. It does not belong to the terrorists of Islamic Palestine. If you are for the Bush Road Map plan, you are against the Nation of Israel. Period.

http://www.conceptwizard.com/imagine/imagine_n.html

The continuing incitement in the Temple Mount mosques in the post-Arafat era

5. Reports made by the Israeli police, that maintains public order in the Temple Mount mosques, as well as (partial) reports by the Palestinian media, reveal that the mosques continue to serve as major breeding grounds for incitement and that they are systematically used for preaching to hatred against Israel and the US and even for the encouragement of terrorism.

It seems that the Palestinian Authority in the Abu Mazen age has taken no significant measures against these major breeding grounds for incitement, even though it made certain to issue a message of restraint in a sermon given at the Al-Tashrifat Mosque at the presidential headquarters in Gaza City (with Abu Mazen present)1.

Friday prayers, December 10, 2004

6. On December 10, 2004, the Friday prayers on the Temple Mount were attended by 27,000 worshippers.

7. The following, among other things, was said in an Islamic lesson given by Muhammad Jamal al-Rifa‘i, known for his inciting sermons:

a. A request from Muslims to resolve their conflicts according to the Quran and not according to “the White House and the loathsome Bush”. The Sheikh referred to the Sharm el-Sheikh Conference as “the Devil’s summit”.

b. A claim that the “sons of Israel” steal and inflict harm upon others as, according to the Sheikh, is said in the Quran.

8. On that Friday, a sermon was given by Sheikh Hian Hilmi Nameq Idrisi2. The Sheikh, known for his extremist sermons, lashed out against the US and compared its actions in Iraq to the actions of the Mongols and the crusaders against the Arabs. He claimed that the US was producing “state terrorism”, fighting entire peoples and putting the world peace at risk.


Friday prayers, December 3, 2004

9. At the same time that a message of restraint was issued from the Gaza City mosque in the sermon attended by Abu Mazen, harsh incitement against Israel and the US was heard in the Temple Mount mosques. The following was said in an Islamic lesson given by Sheikh Muhammad Jamal al-Rifa‘i. Rifa‘i, known for his inciting sermons, was issued a warning by the Israeli police in the past. The lesson was given during the Friday prayers, attended by 30,000 worshippers. Sheikh Muhammad al-Rifa‘i:

a. Described the sequence of events on Judgment Day. God, according to him, will first settle the score with the shahids (“martyrs”), the prophets and the righteous. They will be followed by the usurpers, the rulers and the leaders (i.e. leaders of Arab countries), who allowed the Americans to establish military bases on their territory in order to fight the Iraqis and steal the Muslims’ oil.

b. Read to his audience a well-known verse from the Quran, featured on numerous posters and obituaries: “Among the Believers [i.e., Muslims] are men who have been true to their Covenant with Allah; of them some have completed their vow and found their death [in battle], and some still await [their turn]; but they have never broken [their vow] in the least” (Surah 33, Al-Ahzab, verse 23). This is one of the most popular verses with the Palestinian terrorist organizations, used to praise shahids (“martyrs”) in general and perpetrators of suicide bombing attacks in particular.

c. Asked Allah to destroy the armies of the infidels based in Iraq, kill their children and plague them with troubles, release the prisoners and heal the wounded.

Friday prayers, November 12, 2004

12. Attended by 32,000 worshippers, the Friday prayers were given by Sheikh Yusuf Abu Sneineh: A resident of East Jerusalem, Sneineh is one of the senior preachers in the Al-Aqsa Mosque, known in the past for his inciting sermons against the US and in favor of suicide bombing attacks.

13. The key issues mentioned in the sermon:

a. “ Palestine will not be liberated by talking”: The Sheikh asked everyone to come together, not to accept the proposed solutions and not to surrender. Palestine, according to the Sheikh, will become Somalia or Sudan.

b. The establishment of an Islamic state and the destruction of the enemies of Islam: The only solution to the problems faced by the Palestinians and the only way to liberate the Palestinians is to establish an Islamic state whose flag will fly above the Temple Mount, headed by an Islamic caliph. The Sheikh asked Allah to destroy the enemies of Islam.

c. Anti-American incitement: The Sheikh lashed out at President George W. Bush who, during his previous tenure, engaged in shedding Muslim blood. He mentioned the “persecution of Muslims” by the US in Afghanistan and in Iraq, and the acts of killing in Fallujah, that testify to the US’ “policy of hatred” towards Muslims. He mentioned the direct and implicit threats against Syria and Lebanon, whose purpose, according to the Sheikh, was to exert pressure upon Hezbollah. He also mentioned the pressure exerted by the US on Sudan to abolish the status of Islam as the country’s official religion.

http://www.intelligence.org.il/eng/sib/1_05/inciting.htm

[ January 16, 2005, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: LadyEagle ]

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
Jerusalem belongs to the nation of Israel.

I think that is incorrect. If I recall correctly only west Jerusalem was given to Israel. East Jerusalem remained with the Arabs when the land was partitioned after World War II.

I am not anti-Israel or pro-terrorist. I am pro-diplomatic solution to the problem between the Israelis and the Palestinians.

I realize that a diplomatic, peaceful solution to the conflict is antithethical to your Christian Zionist program so I understand your angst toward anyone who hopes for a peaceful resolution that benefits both the Israelis and the Palestinians.

There is one thing I will admit to being against...I am anti-Christian Zionism.

 

[church mouse guy]

I am not a Christian Zionist and I wouldn't know what one was if one of them bought me a Krispy Kreme doughnut and a latte coffee.

I look at it from a practical standpoint. From what I read the Gaza is about twice the area of Washington DC or 360 km and has about 1.3 million people with an unemployment rate of 50%.

That's a country? It sounds to me like a city of misery. It stays alive by handouts. I don't think that Israel should have to give handouts to the Arabs and I don't think that US handouts should be the basis of a new nation and I don't think that Europe can afford anymore handouts to a bunch of Arabs in Gaza on a jihad against the world.

Therefore, I think that the solution is the status quo except that the Bank should be transferred to Israel as the Arab towns die out and the Gaza should be transferred back to Egypt if Israel pulls out. There can be no Arab future in Israel in the long run.

 

[KenH]

The West Bank is not a part of Israel and should not be a part of Israel unless that decision is reached through diplomatic efforts.

 

[church mouse guy]

The Bank belongs to Jordan. But look at the flash link from LE. The whole thing is a laugh from the original intentions. The Bank was lost in war. It is even less viable for Arabs than the Gaza, which at least sits on the ocean. Once the walls surround it, it can be choked off into nothing, which is what it should be. I am getting sick of Arab demands and threats to cut off oil. Arabs cannot make a go of it in Israel without foreign aid. They can hardly make a go of it in the other parts of the Arab League. It's time to let Algeria be Algeria--in other words let them have their civil wars.

 

[KenH]

We have to deal with what is realistic, cmg. You may not know about it but Christian Zionism is a very dangerous movement that has infected certain areas among evangelical Christians. Christian Zionism has no desire to see the Israelis and the Palestinians reconciled. I hope you are not allowing yourself to be unknowingly influenced by their teachings.

Fortunately, the Word of God is a quite potent antibiotic to defeat Christian Zionism.

 

[church mouse guy]

Well, Ken, you keep talking about this theology that needs to be defeated. But you do not mention how the Gaza can become a great country or how a bunch of squatters on the Bank are really citizens of some great nation that has never existed before. We have history to guide us. We know how they got there. Oil threats or no, it is not our problem. The West cannot afford to support the Arabs in Gaza and the Bank. And they cannot make a living by themselves in that tiny place. Time to move on.

 

[KenH]

We cannot turn our backs on the Israeli-Palestinian problem. These United States need to play the part of the honest broker to, hopefully, bring peace to both the Israelis and the Palestinians.

 

[church mouse guy]

It is not our problem. Now who is the Christian-Zionist?

 

[KenH]

"Christian Zionists see themselves as defenders of the Jewish people and in particular the State of Israel. They support Israel’s policies whether right or wrong. This support involves opposing those who are critical or hostile toward Israel. Consequently, most of them have little or no sympathy toward the Palestinians and are against any peaceful solution that may result in Palestinian statehood."

- www.hcef.org/hcef/index.cfm/ID/53

 

[church mouse guy]

I think a lot of what you link is beside the point. It ignores the history of how the current situation came about. It asks the West to ratify the Arab position willy nilly. But I especially object to the statement by your author:

Palestinians are not enemies of God

Let us remember that the Palestinian Arab people are not idolaters. They worship the God of Abraham. The moral standards of the Palestinians in general put most Americans to shame. What is happening to the Palestinians today certainly is not a judgment from God, but a result of political greed and man’s inhumanity to man.

I do not know what he means when he says that Palestinians worship the God of Abraham. I think this is the old lie that Allah and Jesus are the same. The Palestinians have engaged in terrorism and they do not put Americans to shame on any point.

 

[KenH]

You asked for a definition of Christian Zionism. So let's stick to that. I think we both agree that those who worship according to the tenets of Judaism and Islam will go to Hell.

 

[LadyEagle]

The Bank belongs to Jordan. But look at the flash link from LE.

Ken is not interested in the flash link, the real history of the region, or anything that proves his position is the wrong one. We've been down this road before.

In fact, if you challenge the left-thinking pro-Palestinian cause embracers, they can give no good realistic or practical reason (that makes sense to reasonable people, anyway), why terrorists should be rewarded with a Palestinian state. And you are right, CMG, they've lived off of handouts for a couple of generations now.

Here are some more FACTS that the left (those who support the Palestinian Islamofascist cause) refuse to acknowledge:

1. Nationhood and Jerusalem. Israel became a nation-state in 1312 B.C, 2,000 years before the rise of Islam, and was a nation before that.

2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C., the Jews have had dominion over the land for 1,000 years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.

4. The Arabs conquered Palestine in 635 AD, stealing it from its legitimate Jewish rulers, who had evicted the Byzantines while being led by a woman general, one Hefzibah, who then restored Jewish sovereignty. Palestine was stolen from the Jews by the Arabs and not the other way around. Arab sovereignty over Palestine ended in 1071 when the area was conquered by Seljuk Turks. “Palestinian” Arabs never held sovereignty over “Palestine” and cannot even pronounce the name of their supposed “homeland”. They cannot say “Palestine”.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Qur'an (Koran).

7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.

9. Arab and Jewish Refugees: In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.

10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.

11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be between 400,000 and 630,000, many of whom in fact were allowed to return after the Israeli war of Independence ended.. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be much larger.

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, the Arabs are the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country smaller than the state of New Jersey.

13. The Arab - Israeli Conflict: The Arabs are represented by 22 independent states, not including what Israel has offered the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended herself each time and won.

14. The PLO's Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. In the 1990s Israel gave the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them with weapons.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=16351


Of course, no matter how much is posted, some people are so biased in favor of giving into terrorists by rewarding them with their own state, that it defies logic. In fact, CMG, if people would research this whole issue by the facts of history (instead of throwing in straw men about Zionism and dispensationalism and raptures and things), they would see how ridiculous their position is.

 

[KenH]

www.merip.org/palestine-israel_primer/toc-pal-isr-primer.html

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
They will never change, Joseph. You are either for the Nation of Israel or for the Islamic terrorists of Palestine. You cannot have it both ways. Jerusalem belongs to the nation of Israel. It does not belong to the terrorists of Islamic Palestine. If you are for the Bush Road Map plan, you are against the Nation of Israel. Period.

http://www.conceptwizard.com/imagine/imagine_n.html

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The continuing incitement in the Temple Mount mosques in the post-Arafat era

5. Reports made by the Israeli police, that maintains public order in the Temple Mount mosques, as well as (partial) reports by the Palestinian media, reveal that the mosques continue to serve as major breeding grounds for incitement and that they are systematically used for preaching to hatred against Israel and the US and even for the encouragement of terrorism.

It seems that the Palestinian Authority in the Abu Mazen age has taken no significant measures against these major breeding grounds for incitement, even though it made certain to issue a message of restraint in a sermon given at the Al-Tashrifat Mosque at the presidential headquarters in Gaza City (with Abu Mazen present)1.

Friday prayers, December 10, 2004

6. On December 10, 2004, the Friday prayers on the Temple Mount were attended by 27,000 worshippers.

7. The following, among other things, was said in an Islamic lesson given by Muhammad Jamal al-Rifa‘i, known for his inciting sermons:

a. A request from Muslims to resolve their conflicts according to the Quran and not according to “the White House and the loathsome Bush”. The Sheikh referred to the Sharm el-Sheikh Conference as “the Devil’s summit”.

b. A claim that the “sons of Israel” steal and inflict harm upon others as, according to the Sheikh, is said in the Quran.

8. On that Friday, a sermon was given by Sheikh Hian Hilmi Nameq Idrisi2. The Sheikh, known for his extremist sermons, lashed out against the US and compared its actions in Iraq to the actions of the Mongols and the crusaders against the Arabs. He claimed that the US was producing “state terrorism”, fighting entire peoples and putting the world peace at risk.


Friday prayers, December 3, 2004

9. At the same time that a message of restraint was issued from the Gaza City mosque in the sermon attended by Abu Mazen, harsh incitement against Israel and the US was heard in the Temple Mount mosques. The following was said in an Islamic lesson given by Sheikh Muhammad Jamal al-Rifa‘i. Rifa‘i, known for his inciting sermons, was issued a warning by the Israeli police in the past. The lesson was given during the Friday prayers, attended by 30,000 worshippers. Sheikh Muhammad al-Rifa‘i:

a. Described the sequence of events on Judgment Day. God, according to him, will first settle the score with the shahids (“martyrs”), the prophets and the righteous. They will be followed by the usurpers, the rulers and the leaders (i.e. leaders of Arab countries), who allowed the Americans to establish military bases on their territory in order to fight the Iraqis and steal the Muslims’ oil.

b. Read to his audience a well-known verse from the Quran, featured on numerous posters and obituaries: “Among the Believers [i.e., Muslims] are men who have been true to their Covenant with Allah; of them some have completed their vow and found their death [in battle], and some still await [their turn]; but they have never broken [their vow] in the least” (Surah 33, Al-Ahzab, verse 23). This is one of the most popular verses with the Palestinian terrorist organizations, used to praise shahids (“martyrs”) in general and perpetrators of suicide bombing attacks in particular.

c. Asked Allah to destroy the armies of the infidels based in Iraq, kill their children and plague them with troubles, release the prisoners and heal the wounded.

Friday prayers, November 12, 2004

12. Attended by 32,000 worshippers, the Friday prayers were given by Sheikh Yusuf Abu Sneineh: A resident of East Jerusalem, Sneineh is one of the senior preachers in the Al-Aqsa Mosque, known in the past for his inciting sermons against the US and in favor of suicide bombing attacks.

13. The key issues mentioned in the sermon:

a. “ Palestine will not be liberated by talking”: The Sheikh asked everyone to come together, not to accept the proposed solutions and not to surrender. Palestine, according to the Sheikh, will become Somalia or Sudan.

b. The establishment of an Islamic state and the destruction of the enemies of Islam: The only solution to the problems faced by the Palestinians and the only way to liberate the Palestinians is to establish an Islamic state whose flag will fly above the Temple Mount, headed by an Islamic caliph. The Sheikh asked Allah to destroy the enemies of Islam.

c. Anti-American incitement: The Sheikh lashed out at President George W. Bush who, during his previous tenure, engaged in shedding Muslim blood. He mentioned the “persecution of Muslims” by the US in Afghanistan and in Iraq, and the acts of killing in Fallujah, that testify to the US’ “policy of hatred” towards Muslims. He mentioned the direct and implicit threats against Syria and Lebanon, whose purpose, according to the Sheikh, was to exert pressure upon Hezbollah. He also mentioned the pressure exerted by the US on Sudan to abolish the status of Islam as the country’s official religion.

http://www.intelligence.org.il/eng/sib/1_05/inciting.htm </font>[/QUOTE]LE,

You know full well that you are misrepresenting me again. Dishonesty really doesn't become a moderator. I am for Israel and against the terrorists. However, not all Palestinians, or even Muslims are terrorists.

Joseph Botwinick