According to Dave Hunt, It's a Good Thing That I was Arminian First...

[johnp.]

Hello Me4Him.

Is it the "person" God hates or their "Sins"??

The person is hated but not because of sin though He hates the sin and the sinner as well.

RO 9:10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

God, throught his "Foreknowledge"...

Foreknowledge has nothing to do with seeing into the future but Before they had done good or bad negates Esau's actions as a contributing cause of the hatred.

...is GOD an "UNJUST GOD"???

RO 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Do you understand that? It says God is not unfair. Why is He not unfair? Because He told Moses He was going to do as He pleases. Now you can judge that as a human judging God or you can submit to His Sovereignty and accept that God knows best. The choice you make is made by God and that decision will show you in which way He is using you. Talk to Him about it. My prayer for myself is that He uses me for good and not for bad. There's more Kingdom points that way for me.

It isn't "JUSTICE" to give "PARDONS" to some "prisoners" and deliberately withholding "PARDONS" from others, when all have committed the "same crime". (Sinner)

I sympathise with the sentiment but would suggest that He is able we are not. It isn't called justice to give pardons it's called mercy.

Calvin accuses God of operating a "KANGAROO COURT", meting out "JUSTICE" according to his "GOOD PLEASURE" rather than "ACCORDING TO LAW".

He is not subject to the law He subjected us to it. He will not forgive many. He is not subject of the law He is the law.

God doesn't function like that, "YOU" have to be "GUILTY" of the "CHARGE", not God, and "predestination" (No pardon offered) makes God responsible for the person remaining a "prisoner of sin".

Responsible is a funny word. RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

But since Jesus died for the sins of the "WHOLE WORLD" that the "WHOLE WORLD MIGHT BE" saved, none can accuse God of not offering them a "pardon".

Arminianism = the "WHOLE WORLD MIGHT BE" saved
Calvinism = She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." No might about it is there? Matt 1:21.

But since Jesus died for the sins of the "WHOLE WORLD" that the "WHOLE WORLD MIGHT BE" saved, none can accuse God of not offering them a "pardon".

Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' " 1 Sam 3:14.

Calvin didn't understand "LAW" and the "Application of Law", especially in "God's Court".

First I'd like to know why we are talking about Calvin instead of scripture? Secondly, in which way did Calvin err? I have no idea what he thought about law but I know he was a very clever clogs even if he was French. You seem to know a lot about him, more than me in fact.

BTW, we're not charged with being a "sinner" in God's Court, if we were, we'd all go to hell because we are all guilty.

Which bible is that from? Has the wages of sin been paid for all then?

The "CONDEMNING" Charge in God's Court is "UNBELIEF".

Is that a sin then?

john.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by johnp.:
Hello johnp:

I "THINK" you missed the point, God doesn't "pick and chose" whom he want to saved, and whom he doesn't, that is a choice made by "personal predilection" rather than Judging according to the law.

God Judges "according to law", "YOU" are either guilty or not guilty according to the "LAW".

We're all guilty of sin, but for those who accept/have FAITH in Jesus, the "FINE" (wages of sin) has been "PAID" by Jesus, so we are not "UNDER THE LAW" of "death for sin".

However, those of "UNBELIEF" still owe for their sins, the "FINE" hasn't been paid, consequencly, they pay themselves, the law requires "DEATH" and that means HEll.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

The "LAW".
Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;

But the point is that "GOD JUDGES" according to the requirements of the "LAW", not "personal predilection".

I have a "VERY GOOD FRIEND" who is "Calvinist" to the "BONE", we have some "pretty good" discussions, from time to time.

 

[prophecynut]

Me4Him, please give the definitions for:

1. Elected
2. Appoint
3. Chose

 

[johnp.]

Hello Me4Him.

I "THINK" you missed the point, God doesn't "pick and chose" whom he want to saved, and whom he doesn't, that is a choice made by "personal predilection" rather than Judging according to the law.

Forgive me Me4Him but it is you that errs. "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44 says that no one can go to Jesus unless God draws them and those drawn will be raised up.

God Judges "according to law", "YOU" are either guilty or not guilty according to the "LAW".

I never said you wasn't. We are all held guilty under the law because God bound all men over to sin. Rom 11:32 it was His choice that we be sinners.

However, those of "UNBELIEF" still owe for their sins, the "FINE" hasn't been paid, consequencly, they pay themselves, the law requires "DEATH" and that means HEll.

Either Jesus paid the penalty for a persons sin or He did not. The cross was a sacrifice of atonement and a sacrifice of atonement is given by the Priest for a certain number, Israel. It is not a general sacrifice that covers the whole of the race of mankind otherwise all are saved as the sacrifice is efficient in itself as it is given by God to those He chose to give it.

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death...

Yes and Jesus paid the penalty for me. If I had not accepted would that mean that Jesus died for my sins and I would pay for my sins? Double jeopardy is fine is it? How can you say the 'fine'? What's that but Jesus did not die for all sins as unbelief in your mind is not atoned for?

But the point is that "GOD JUDGES" according to the requirements of the "LAW", not "personal predilection".

That's why Jesus died for me. If He had not died for me then I would have to die for me.
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. Eph 1:4-8.

I have a "VERY GOOD FRIEND" who is "Calvinist" to the "BONE", we have some "pretty good" discussions, from time to time.

Cool. You should stop the arguing and start to use your logic in belief not speculation. Your friend is right.
After all how can we be expected to find a thing God has hidden? And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." Gen 3:23.

I'd like an answer to this little Calvinistic gem. He not only hid the way to life but just in case He put a guard on it with a sharp sword! Get close enough by yourself and it will result in an injury to you. verse 24 ...he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Please pass this onto your friend if he doesn't know it.

john.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
Me4Him, please give the definitions for:

1. Elected
2. Appoint
3. Chose

"ELECT", part of God's plans.

Israel is "ELECT" because they are "part of God's plan". (promises made to Abraham)

And as "ELECT", even being "enemies of the Gospel" some of them will be saved. (those individual who believe)

"NO GENTILES" (Church) has this same promise, with the church it's "WHOSOEVER WILL".

"APPOINT", within the context of God's plan, look at the following verses.

Heb 9:27 And as it is "appointed" unto men once to die,

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, (die)

Whatever is "appointed" must be understood "WITHIN" the context of the appointment.

"CHOSE", "WHY" make the "CHOICE"??

Mt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

If you'll read the parable of the "SOWER", you'll find the "SEED" goes "EVERYWHERE", (CALLED) but only "GROWS" where fertile ground is found. (Chosen)

We're "CHOSEN", "REJECTED" based on "OUR CHOICE" of what is presented to us, like Adam, we can chose the world or God, but the "CHOICE" is ours to make and is the basis of God's "JUDGMENT". (Saved/unsaved)

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Predestination says that God makes these "CHOICES" for us, therefore our final destination isn't according to our "OBEDIENCE/DISOBEDIENCE" to God, but the predilection of God according to his good pleasure and not according to his law.

You'll find an "EXCEPTION" to almost everything in scripture, and when you come down on either side, (one verse doctrines) without considering the "exception" on the "other side", nine chances out of ten, you'll be wrong.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by johnp.:

Forgive me Me4Him but it is you that errs. "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44 says that no one can go to Jesus unless God draws them and those drawn will be raised up.

Many "ARE CALLED", but not all "CHOSEN".

WHY??

Rom 11:32 it was His choice that we be sinners.

And it was "HIS CHOICE" that we all be saved, that's why Jesus didn't come to condemn the world but the world through him "MIGHT BE SAVED", and he died, NOT ONLY FOR OUR SINS", but also the SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD, so they "MIGHT BE" saved, the "CALL" is made to everyone, but everyone doesn't answer.

Either Jesus paid the penalty for a persons sin or He did not. The cross was a sacrifice of atonement and a sacrifice of atonement is given by the Priest for a certain number, Israel. It is not a general sacrifice that covers the whole of the race of mankind otherwise all are saved as the sacrifice is efficient in itself as it is given by God to those He chose to give it.

I suggest a reading of the "Feast days" posted under "God's plan for the ages".
http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/28/3398.html?[/url]

Israel's "Day of Atonement" (trib... "ANYTHING", except the "SPIRIT" to teach me.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Monergist;
It's easy to call a man a liar and never offer proof. Don't get me wrong I'm not standing up for Dave Hunt. How ever calling him a liar is defaming to your own view. Makes you look like you only said this because he speaks against what you believe. And there must be something to what the man has said or you wouldn't pay much attention to him.
How is it the man is a liar?. What did he lie about?. Give us a quote. Then prove what he said is a deliberate lie. You know slander of this type is very unbecoming if you can't at least prove your statement.
Why should anyone take your word for it.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All.
Mike

 

[Monergist]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Hi Monergist;
It's easy to call a man a liar and never offer proof. Don't get me wrong I'm not standing up for Dave Hunt. How ever calling him a liar is defaming to your own view.

Where did I call him a liar? If you say that I called him a liar and I never called him a liar, isn't that defaming to your own view?

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Monergist.
Your right you didn't, Larry did. How ever you did agree with Larry.

Pastor Larry is right; the man is not to be trusted. If you are buying his lies, I would warn you to take care.

Larry did say that he's a liar

Quote from Larry;
Dave Hunt is a documented liar on this topic. The fallacies of his book have been shown in numerous places. He is not to be trusted.

Yet Larry has admitted that he has never read Dave Hunt's book. So how does he know? He doesn't know. All of his information is second hand at best. That isn't knowing the truth that's just claiming you do.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[Pastor Larry]

I know for a fact because I have seen Hunt's book and I have seen the original quotations. I have provided that evidence here before. Hunt is a documented liar. There is no dispute about that. He was told not to publish this book, even by people on "his side." Dave Hunt cannot be trusted on this topic.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Larry;
This is as far as it ever goes. I believe you're wrong. Now I didn't say I agree with Hunt but I have challenged you on it more than once and you haven't proven anything to me that was a lie Mr. Hunt said.
In fact I've never seen any proof from you on anything. You might reference a view verses and claim they say this or that but on inspection they don't say what you claim. Never have.
Although I wouldn't call you a liar, even though you have been wrong on most of what you have to say.
I keep hoping you'll see the light that Christ shines here. However I don't believe you have yet.
I keep hoping.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
God is sovereign in "certain areas", but "WHOSOEVER WILL" is a "CHOICE" man makes, not God. (rightly dividing)

9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God .
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."[c]
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."[d]
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."[e]
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."[f]
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."[g]
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes." [h]

Romans 3:9-18

The above passage describe the state of mankind before salvation as being totally depraved, without worth, those who do not seek God, and as having no fear for God. Please explain to me how anyone of us, in that state, chooses to follow God.

Thank you,

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Ray Berrian]

Mike,

I have read Dave Hunt and have a copy in my library called, "What Love Is This?" By this he means that Calvinism's view of God does not really demonstrate the love of God toward all sinners, merely His chosen elect. Peter, the lead apostle in Acts 10:34 informs us that 'Of a truth--God is no respecter of persons. All are invited to receive Christ, but, as we know not all welcome Jesus into their lives as to eternal salvation. I place my imprimatur of credibility on his writing. I have found "no error" theologically speaking.

He 'kicks up much more than a little dust' in the eyes of the Calvinsits and they do not have a Biblical or clear interpretation to stand on as quasi-Christian teachers. This is why they get so accusatory of his teaching.

What really troubles them is when some of their own Calvinists like Dr. Sproul makes statements from his book that John Calvin was a great student of Augstine; little wonder that all Calvin had to do was systematize what the predestinarian views of this alleged great Roman Catholic were in the early days of the church.

Calvinists in our day are merely parroting the teachings of the early Catholic church back in I think it was the 400's B.C.

Augustine also believed this present church age is the millennium and his view has been adopted by some Protestant Churches as a kind of Amillennialism which denies Jesus theocratic future reign from the city of Jerusalem [Zechariah chapter 14 and especially verses 9 & 17], when the church age comes to an end. For some misled people they think the church age will continue to the end of time and then a one Judgment Day for sinners and saints.

Mr. Hunt explains some of the explanations that friar John Calvin has suggested in his formative years as a 'want to be' theologian.

One would think that the ideas coming out of the Dark Ages of the early church would not be swallowed by this age when there are so many 'tool' to help understand clearly the Word of God. We have Hebrew and Greek scholars to guide us to the truths and not people who think that the Apostle Paul wrote the New Testament in the KJV.

Oh, that is what I read, study and remember for teaching and preaching, but knowing the Greek is vital if you are going to come to a more clear view of Holy Scripture.

 

[Pastor Larry]

This is as far as it ever goes. I believe you're wrong.

You believe incorrectly.

Now I didn't say I agree with Hunt but I have challenged you on it more than once and you haven't proven anything to me that was a lie Mr. Hunt said.

I don't recall ever having this conversation with you, but I know that I have demonstrated Hunt's dishonesty, misrepresentations, and factual mistakes before.

You can think what you like about Calvinism or arminianism. The truth is that no matter what side you come down on, Hunt is a bad source.

In fact I've never seen any proof from you on anything.

That is because you are not willing to accept certain things. You differ from me and you judge by a different standard. My standard of truth is the word of God. When it speaks, I accept it.

You might reference a view verses and claim they say this or that but on inspection they don't say what you claim. Never have.

That is simply untrue. I have demonstrated my position from Scripture, and used Scripture to refute your view..

Although I wouldn't call you a liar, even though you have been wrong on most of what you have to say.

You are incorrect. You have yet to demonstrate even one thing I have been wrong on. I have used the Scripture time after time to refute your position. You simply don't listen to Scritpure.

I keep hoping you'll see the light that Christ shines here. However I don't believe you have yet.

I have seen the light, many years ago while reading Scripture. I have shown you the truth and you don't believe. You run from it. In the end you have accepted what makes sense to your mind and so you are closed to anything else.

But regardless, I have demonstrated the errors of Hunt's book before. Here is a link to a good and fair review. http://www.dbts.edu/dbts/journals/Hunt_Review.pdf

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
God is sovereign in "certain areas", but "WHOSOEVER WILL" is a "CHOICE" man makes, not God. (rightly dividing)

9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God .
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."[c]
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."[d]
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."[e]
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."[f]
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."[g]
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes." [h]

Romans 3:9-18

The above passage describe the state of mankind before salvation as being totally depraved, without worth, those who do not seek God, and as having no fear for God. Please explain to me how anyone of us, in that state, chooses to follow God.

Thank you,

Joseph Botwinick </font>[/QUOTE]We won't/don't, except the "SPIRIT" draw (calls) us.

That why we're to "go into all the world" preaching the gospel, but we can't "PREACH" without the "SPIRIT".

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent?

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:

Mt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

The preached word, "NEVER" returns "VOID", in God's court, it will be a "WITNESS" for those who hear/obey, and against those who hear/reject.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

"Total depravity" is "defeated" by the offer of "total righteousness".

Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ

unto all (offer is made)

and upon (applies to) all them that believe:

for there is no difference: (respect of persons)

23 For all have sinned,

and come short of the glory of God;

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Larry;

But regardless, I have demonstrated the errors of Hunt's book before. Here is a link to a good and fair review. http://www.dbts.edu/dbts/journals/Hunt_Review.pdf

I disagree at what you would call good and fair. This is not your demonstration, but that of someone else. You called the man a liar and have still failed to prove it.

Your assesment of my personal faith is also wrong. It is scripture that I pay attention to, and not Larry's interpretation of it.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[Ray Berrian]

ILUVLIGHT,

Apparently, you do 'love light' because you probably, if not purchased the book by Hunt, at least you have read it.

Under the section at the front of the book called, "Why This Book" Mr. Hunt says that his antagonists said that he had '. . . absolutely no understanding of the Reformed position.'

Are pastors and S.S. teachers supposed to preach the Arminian or the Reformed position or to explain the N.T.?

There are so many variations of the Reformed ideas as within Arminian teachings that it is basicly unimportant what they believe.

Our task is to 'rightly divide the Word of truth.'

Mr. Hunt has explained what he believes the Holy Spirit has taught him. The book should be judged only on what he said within the 396 pages--along what the N.T. has told us.

I do not know his background as to church or theological background but the Spirit sure enlighten his mind and soul.

As a former pastor, and presently a teacher of N.T. Biblical theology I commend Mr. Hunt for his firmness in holding to the Word of God.

As word gets out, I am sure he will sell more than the 4 million copies at last printing. It has also been translated into 40 languages to keep the philosophy [Colossians 2:8] of Calvinism on the right theological track.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I disagree at what you would call good and fair.

But it is still good and fair.

This is not your demonstration, but that of someone else. You called the man a liar and have still failed to prove it.

Did you read the article? It proves beyond doubt that Hunt has lied.

Your assesment of my personal faith is also wrong. It is scripture that I pay attention to, and not Larry's interpretation of it.

If you paid attention to Scripture, then you would believe differently than you do.

May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;

He already has ... It's right there in His word for you to see.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Under the section at the front of the book called, "Why This Book" Mr. Hunt says that his antagonists said that he had '. . . absolutely no understanding of the Reformed position.'

Something which he ably demonstrated in this horrific attempt at writing.

Are pastors and S.S. teachers supposed to preach the Arminian or the Reformed position or to explain the N.T.?

When they preach the NT, they will be preachign what has come to be known as the reformed position on soteriology.

The book should be judged only on what he said within the 396 pages--along what the N.T. has told us.

And that is precisely what the linked article does. It judges Hunt by the book that he wrote, and by the NT.

It is one thing to be an arminian. It is another thing to be deceived by Hunt. The guy is a charade. Surely you can see that. Just read the article.

 

[prophecynut]

Excellent review on Hunt's book, effectively refutes the heresy of Arminianism.

In my upcoming book, Calvinism will be supported and Arminianism condemned.