According to Dave Hunt, It's a Good Thing That I was Arminian First...

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Ray;

Apparently, you do 'love light' because you probably, if not purchased the book by Hunt, at least you have read it.

Yes I have read his book and found it to be of good quality and quite accurate but I would hesitate to say I agree with any mere man 100%.
It's impossible to find anyone who one can agree with 100%.

Under the section at the front of the book called, "Why This Book" Mr. Hunt says that his antagonists said that he had '. . . absolutely no understanding of the Reformed position.'

Hey after all who couldn't understand it with the all knowing James White to tell you what it all means. The debate between him and Dave was hilarious. Old Dave quoting scripture with James frothing at the mouth and insulting him. I have come to the conclusion that some Calvinist would rather loose face as a Christian than admit defeat in a debate.
Every month in the Berean call there is someone who is thankful for his stand on Calvinism. Calvinist are finding out the truth everyday because of it.
Your right I love light that's why when I see it I go for it.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[Ray Berrian]

ILUVLIGHT,

It funny in a sad way that Calvinists in the face of such a large amount of Divine truth still think because they say, for example, that Mr. Hunt does not know anything about the tenants of Calvinism, that other Christians will be vulnerable enough to believe their concepts as being the truth.

I think the more you learn about Augustinian (early Roman Catholic)/Calvinism the more you wish Christians would not fall into the demonic trap of believing such diabolical quasi-spiritual food.

Calvinism absolutely does not come from the heart, if you will, of God. Calvinistic quasi-philosophy/theology cannot destroy the following verses: Mark 16:15-16; John 1:7; 3:16; 5:24; Acts 2:21; 16:31; Romans 5:18; II Corinthians 5:17; I Timothy 2:4 & 6; Hebrews 2:9; I John 5:13; and Revelation 22:17.

The Calvinistic montra will end at the Judgment Seat of Christ when they are judged for effacing the true Gospel of Jesus Christ by suggesting that God had His unfavorable sinners who He allegedly --with forethought destined for the regions of the damned.

I know some sinners who are closer to the truth than Calvinists. Even they know that God rules His own nature as to His judiciousness; He is the Divine Being who is fair and merciful to all who believe and remains fair even toward those who remain in unbelief because they had the opportunity to receive Christ and be saved eternally. Jesus does not play favorites. The Scripture above affirms this Divine verity.

The older I become in Christ I think--they can't
actually believe these ideas, can they?

I think on the subterranean level of their soul they too know this is really a falsehood. Who knows, why people will not measure up to Divine truths.

ILUVLIGHT also--I don't try to fight it; I welcome whatever He says in His Word.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Post removed for personal attacks and being off topic.

[ October 04, 2005, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[4His_glory]

.

Yes I have read his book and found it to be of good quality and quite accurate but I would hesitate to say I agree with any mere man 100%.
It's impossible to find anyone who one can agree with 100%.

Accurate? I don't think so, Dave said that John Calvin never spoke of the love of God in his Institutes. Obviously he never read the Institutes because Calvin writes of God's love several times.

Its one thing to write a book I disagree with, its entirely another to wirte a book I disagree with that misquotes, misrepresents, and shows obvious signs of bad research.

In other words, if your going to write a bad I don't agree with at least use good logic, and research, and above all show some integrety.

Sadly Dave didn't and his credibility went way down in the eyes of many.

 

[4His_glory]

Hello Ray,

It funny in a sad way that Calvinists in the face of such a large amount of Divine truth still think because they say, for example, that Mr. Hunt does not know anything about the tenants of Calvinism, that other Christians will be vulnerable enough to believe their concepts as being the truth.

Dave Hunt openly admitted that he did not understand the reformed positon, niether does he take the time to understand it, which is abundently clear from his book.

I know some sinners who are closer to the truth than Calvinists. Even they know that God rules His own nature as to His judiciousness; He is the Divine Being who is fair and merciful to all who believe and remains fair even toward those who remain in unbelief because they had the opportunity to receive Christ and be saved eternally. Jesus does not play favorites. The Scripture above affirms this Divine verity.

Are you suggesting that Calvinists are not saved? If so that is a violation of BB rules. God is not fair Ray, He is JUST. God chief concern is His own glory. He will be justified in all He does including the damnation of sinners. Evidently you believe that everyone has the opportuntiy to be saved. Tell me then what about the heathen in the jungle who will never hear the Gospel. How will he have opportunity to be saved?

Election is not about favortism, its all about the glory of God. Read Eph. 1.

From reading your posts sir you seem to demonstrate bitterness towards your Calvinist breathren.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Yes I have read his book and found it to be of good quality and quite accurate

Then you are either horribly uninformed, or didn't read this book. I have given you the evidence. This is not about CvA, at this point. It is about basic honesty and decency. One can be an arminian and recognize that Hunt wrote a terrible book. He misrepresents people; he distorts quotations; he is simply wrong on many many points. You don't have to be a Calvinist to recognize bad writing and argumentation.

Did you even read the review? It is concise, and clear.

 

[Me4Him]

It's "TRUE" that God "FOREKNEW" all who would "believe" and wrote their name in the "Lamb's book of life" "BEFORE" the foundation of the world.

However, having the "Foreknowledge" of people's "Belief/unBelief" doesn't imply control of their "Choices", any more than my "Foreknowledge" of the unsaved going to hell.

As "Christians", we're able to look into the future and know what will occur by/through prophecy, but we don't control that future.

But even with prophecy, scripture tells us the future can be changed, IF everyone believed, the tribulations would be cancelled, God would "GLADLY" change his mind/prophecy, and that's true for individuals, their future, the world's future, lies in the "CHOICES" people make.

God can have a "change of heart".


Ge 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Ex 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

 

[Brother James]

Originally posted by Monergist:
...otherwise, I would be a hell-bound heretic.

Answering a question from a reader in his Bearean Call newsletter:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Could someone who believes this false gospel of Calvinism be truly saved? Fortunately, many Calvinists (you among them) were saved before becoming Calvinists. They now malign God by saying that He is pleased to damn multitudes though He could save all--and that He predestines multitudes to the Lake of Fire before they are even born. But having believed the gospel before becoming Calvinists, they "shall not come into condemnation, but [have] passed from death unto life" (Jn 5:24). Those who only know the false gospel of Calvinism are not saved, while those who are saved and ought to know better but teach these heresies will be judged for doing so.

</font>[/QUOTE]After my 20+ years in the ministry it's sometimes difficult to believe anyone is saved.

 

[Bro Tony]

From reading your posts sir you seem to demonstrate bitterness towards your Calvinist breathren.

A view that seems to be with both sides in this debate. (read following quotes)

Excellent review on Hunt's book, effectively refutes the heresy of Arminianism.

In my upcoming book, Calvinism will be supported and Arminianism condemned

A statement that seems to indicate that those who hold the Arminian view are heretics and thus not saved.

When they preach the NT, they will be preachign what has come to be known as the reformed position on soteriology."

A view that is an opinion and not a fact based in Scripture. But apparently allowed to remain as the one who posts it in an arrogant way is the moderator.

I have seen the light, many years ago while reading Scripture. I have shown you the truth and you don't believe. You run from it. In the end you have accepted what makes sense to your mind and so you are closed to anything else.

Again, an arrogant statement that closely relates the writers position as that of the Holy Spirit illuminating others. Because, one man declares something as true does not make it so.

I think this debate should be even handed. The NT is neither Calvinistic or Arminian. These are two views of soteriology but they are not the only ones.

Bro Tony

Sorry that my cut and pasting is not the best..

 

[Pastor Larry]

Tony,

There was nothing arrogant in those quotes. The NT teaches that God has elected individuals to salvation from before the foundation of the world, and that he is calling them to salvation. That is teh NT teaching, and it is what reformed soteriology teaches.

Secondly, I never claimed or implied anything about the Holy Spirit's illumination. My plea has always been that we deal with the text of Scripture. If we had more dealing with Scripture and less dealing in personalities and personal ideas we would be better off.

 

[Helen]

That is NOT the teaching of the NT, Larry. The NT teaches that those who believe are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. God does not stop half-way. There is nothing to indicate that anyone is chosen before they are created to be a believer or not a believer. That idea makes mash of most of the Bible! It certainly makes mash of the idea that God is love and did not desire one to perish but all to come to repentance.

I think if anyone looks at the predestination passages they will find that it is those who believe who are predestined to a certain end, not that they were predestined to believe.

God knew. But the choice has always been a real one.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hi Helen, nice to meet you.

You must have missed something in Larrys post. You changed a word. What you said above happens, but this is after election. Election is "Gods choosing". Predestination is placed on the elect.

read ephs 1 and answer this.

1) Who elects (chooses) who?
2) When did election happen?

In Christ...James

 

[Bro Tony]

Thank you Larry for your reply.

My point which I made poorly, is that in these debates when one holds a position they seem to believe that because they hold it, it is the biblical position. I personally don't agree that the reformed position is the one taught in the NT. I believe you have to bend the Scripture to support the reformed view. I also dont believe that the NT supports full blown Arminianism. I would not call either one heretical though. I would not infer that those who hold those positions are less enlightened. I just believe a little more grace ought to be displayed on both sides of the issue.

Bro Tony

 

[Monergist]

Mike, Ray, Helen, Tony, etc.

Why is it that not one of the Calvinism bashers here have addressed Hunt's assertion in the OP that calvinists (who have only known and believed in the Doctrines of Grace) are not saved.

Shall we assume from your silence that you agree?

 

[Monergist]

Tony,
I saw your last post after I posted mine. I believe that it answers my question.

Let's see about the others.

 

[Bro Tony]

I must add that I do believe in the Soveriegnty of God. I just dont believe that it takes away any of His Soveriegnty to believe that the Bible teaches that our Soveriegn God created man with the ability to genuinely respond to Him. And in genuinely respond that is either in the affirmative or the negative. After all, even we who are saved still do that daily. I certainly would not blame God for my daily choices to either walk in the Spirit or the flesh.

God is God. My response cannot add anything to Him or take anything away from Him. That He created me to respond to Him and I respond to Him in anyway does not deny His Soveriegnty in the least.

Finally, I would add that the term elect in the NT is used to those who are saved, not to those who either will be saved or condemned.

Bro Tony

 

[Timtoolman]

Jarthur may I say that you are one of the few calvinist who are not arragont. I know many on here, I know Dave Doran, I have listen to many of James Whites debates and found a very disturbing characteristic of calvinist. It seems there is a head knowledge of certain things of God while others are ignored. They come across as cold, unable to relate to sinners, and afraid to broach the subject of the love of God. I appreciate your approach on here.

Now to your questions, God chose. Number two, before the foundations of the world.

Norman Geisler gives this illustration in his book. A man is in love with a woman. He loves that woman. He knows that she loves him. He wants to marry her. He knows she will say yes. But he still needs to ask and she must say yes.
Now I agree that the bible states He knew us (intimately) before we were born. Does that not really claim foreknowledge from a human pt of view. I mean we all know that God is not lock in time and all is laid out before Him. To us is that not the same as foreknowledge? God knew us before we knew Him, foreknowledge? I don't see how you cannot at least see a remote possibility for this other then your calvinist teaching. I don't believe either side has it right, but honest debate seems to be lost on this subject.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Bro Tony:
I must add that I do believe in the Soveriegnty of God. I just dont believe that it takes away any of His Soveriegnty to believe that the Bible teaches that our Soveriegn God created man with the ability to genuinely respond to Him. And in genuinely respond that is either in the affirmative or the negative. After all, even we who are saved still do that daily. I certainly would not blame God for my daily choices to either walk in the Spirit or the flesh.

God is God. My response cannot add anything to Him or take anything away from Him. That He created me to respond to Him and I respond to Him in anyway does not deny His Soveriegnty in the least.

Finally, I would add that the term elect in the NT is used to those who are saved, not to those who either will be saved or condemned.

Bro Tony

Simply, but beatifully stated!

Tim

 

[Monergist]

Originally posted by Helen:
That is NOT the teaching of the NT, Larry. The NT teaches that those who believe are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. God does not stop half-way. There is nothing to indicate that anyone is chosen before they are created to be a believer or not a believer. That idea makes mash of most of the Bible! It certainly makes mash of the idea that God is love and did not desire one to perish but all to come to repentance.

I think if anyone looks at the predestination passages they will find that it is those who believe who are predestined to a certain end, not that they were predestined to believe.

God knew. But the choice has always been a real one.

The sequence of scripture is:

1. Those whom He foreknew he predestined,
2. Those whom He predestined He called,
3. Those whom He called He justified,
4. Those whom He justified He glorified.

Its obvious that the 'predestined' part comes BEFORE the 'calling' part. Which makes mash, not of scripture, but of the ideas of those that oppose the clear teaching of scripture.

 

[Pastor Larry]

PL: The NT teaches that God has elected individuals to salvation from before the foundation of the world, and that he is calling them to salvation.

Helen: That is NOT the teaching of the NT, Larry.

Well, let's examine it (again).

2 Thessalonians 2:13 13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Ephesians 1:4 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.

Clearly, God chose individuals to salvation from before the beginning of the world. To say that God predestined believers to be like Christ is to say the same thing. That is a part of the process of salvation. It is called sanctification.