According to Dave Hunt, It's a Good Thing That I was Arminian First...

[Ray Berrian]

4His--glory,

John 5:22 b tells me that only Jesus will judge all people. This is His area of Divine justice; I am but a man of God serving Him.

I believe though Seventh-Day Adventists were considered one of the four major cults when I went to seminary, I nevertheless believe some--perhaps many have saving faith in Jesus. On the other hand, there are possibly Arminians who know a lot about God who have not placed their faith in Jesus and are therefore are lost until this happens. Does this answer your question.

You said God is not fair but is just. This is a contradiction.

The Lord is fair and He is God of justice. One aspect of His nature is His justice which easily commingles with His fairness among the children of men.

I agree with you that one of His supreme goals is His own glory, power and authority.

Yes, He will be justified and a God of justice to all who refuse Jesus Christ as Savior.

As to Ephesians chapter one, yes He has chosen the people of God and predestinated them to eternal life, through His foreknowledge and human response of faith to His call to eternal life. I Peter 1:2 says, 'Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father' and not by an autocratic choice made by Him.

I am still thinking about the question of the lost souls in the deep jungles. What do you think?

I have a friend who is a 5 pt. Calvinist. I do not hate Calvinists who I have never met or even sat next to them to have coffee. How would this be possible? I do detest the twisted distortions of the five points of Calvinism. I do not hate people I hate the concepts that twist the character of the Trinune Godhead.

We never glorify the Lord God by saying that Jesus only died for the elect. Read my third post down on page three as to Scripture. I did not hear even a quiet, squeak from one Calvinist explaining these truths.

 

[4His_glory]

Hi Ray,

If God were fair, then all of us would be damned to hell, because that is what everyone deserves. But God is justified in what He does. Fairness and justice are not the same thing.

Regarding those who never here the Gospel, they will never be saved, and why God choose not to have His Gospel revealed to them and by His Grace save some of them I don't know, other than in even that action God is glorified.

 

[Scott J]

The souls deep in the jungle are guilty as are we all according to Romans 1 & 2. God is under no obligation to offer salvation to any... much less all.

We never glorify the Lord God by saying that Jesus only died for the elect. Read my third post down on page three as to Scripture. I did not hear even a quiet, squeak from one Calvinist explaining these truths.

Squeak, squeak.

Jesus died for the sins of believers. Who will believe? The elect.

You wouldn't say that Jesus died for the sins of unbelievers would you? If Jesus died for "everyone's" sins then God cannot hold any sin against anyone. If as non-calvinists demand, it is truly man's independent, unregenerate, willful choice that secures his salvation then provision must necessarily have been provided for everyone...

Your system has a more difficult quandry than ours. If you say that Christ died for all sin then no one can be lost or else it is man's choice that saves him and not Christ's sacrifice since His death is useless until man adds his decision.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Monergist:


The sequence of scripture is:

1. Those whom He foreknew he predestined,
2. Those whom He predestined He called,
3. Those whom He called He justified,
4. Those whom He justified He glorified.

Its obvious that the 'predestined' part comes BEFORE the 'calling' part. Which makes mash, not of scripture, but of the ideas of those that oppose the clear teaching of scripture.

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,

"Foreknow" "PRECEDES" "predestinate".

And what were these "predestinate" to become, Saved/lost, NO, "images of his son"???

Here's a few:

Jesus, was the Son of God.
Matthew 8 29, Jesus, thou Son of God.

Christians, are Sons of God.
John 1 12, to them gave he power to become the sons of God.

Jesus, spoke the words of God.
John 3 34, For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God:

Christians, speak the words of God.
John 17 8, For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me.


Jesus, possessed the Holy spirit.
John 3 34, for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

Christians, possesses the Holy Spirit.
Luke 11 13, your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him.


Jesus, was the Light of the world.
John 9 5, I am the light of the world.

Christians, are the light of the world.
Matthew 5 14, Ye are the light of the world.


Jesus, performed the Works of God.
John 9 4, I must work the works of him that sent me.

Christians, perform the Works of God.
John 14 12, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also.


Jesus, had the Righteousness of God.
Romans 10 4, For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness.

Christians, Have the Righteousness of God.
Romans 3 22, Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus
Christ
unto all and upon all them that believe.


Jesus, was God's Representative.
Matthew 10 40, he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Christians, are God's Representatives
Matthew 10 40, He that receiveth you receiveth me.


Jesus, Crucified for salvation.
Matthew 27 35, And they crucified him.

Christians, Crucified for salvation.
Romans 6 6, Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him.


There's many more, but you get the "Idea" of what was the "predestinate" plan.

Yes, God does have to call, but many "ARE" called, few chosen, due to "THEIR" unbelief.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Larry;

Then you are either horribly uninformed, or didn't read this book.

One thing for sure Larry you haven't read the book you claim is so bad. Your the one who is uninformed. You've even said so on many occasions. Anyone can take any writen word out of context to make it say what ever they want. You should know that Larry. So your unfair judgement of Dave Hunt is illogical. Like I've said many times before you have taken someone elses word for it.

You sir are the reason I read the book The part I like best was his comment about Calvin's opion of Jn 3:16-17.

These quote's are fact;
Calvin himself,in his comentary on Jn. 3:16 stated that "World" in cluded " all men with out exception. Luther also claimed the same.
But in debate with James white Hunt wrote and it is true because I read that book as well. It's called "Debating Calvinism"

"But White, Realizing that such an admission does away with Limited Atonement manages a desperate end run around Jn. 3:16 He suggest that sound exegesis requires 'that whosoever believeth on Him should not perrish' Actually means in order that everyone believeing on him should not perrish."

I'm sorry Larry but White is dead wrong. There is no way he can come away with such a farce as that.

Larry you should move to where I am I'd loan you the books
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Scott J:


You wouldn't say that Jesus died for the sins of unbelievers would you? If Jesus died for "everyone's" sins then God cannot hold any sin against anyone. If as non-calvinists demand, it is truly man's independent, unregenerate, willful choice that secures his salvation then provision must necessarily have been provided for everyone...

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

And why isn't the "WHOLE WORLD SAVED"??

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Your system has a more difficult quandry than ours. If you say that Christ died for all sin then no one can be lost or else it is man's choice that saves him and not Christ's sacrifice since His death is useless until man adds his decision.

Look at it this way, because it's the "TRUTH".

Christians must be willing to "DIE FOR SALVATION" the same way Jesus was willing to die for "OUR SALVATION".

Mt 20:22 Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of,

We Spiritually "Crucify the old Man" to destroy the "BODY OF SIN".

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed,

So, in addition to Jesus's death, we have to die as well to be saved.

Actually, TWO SACRIFICES are required to be saved, Jesus/US.

IF we're not willing to crucify the old man, (lust of the flesh) then Jesus's death won't save us.

If, "BY FAITH" we're willing to "KILL" the "WILL" of the flesh and follow the "WILL" of the "Spirit", Jesus can then save us.

Salvation is offer to "EVERYONE", but not everyone is "WILLING" to give up the "things of this world" (old man) for the "things of God", therefore, Jesus's death "ALONG" will not pay the "wages of their sins".

The only thing preventing the "WHOLE WORLD" from being saved, is people who refuse to "drink of Jesus's cup".

because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Me4him;
I believe the problem most have in following Christ is dying daily. Every day we must die without exception. The reason is because there is no man with out sin. Christ died once. We die to sin everyday.

Paul said he died daily;
1Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[Ray Berrian]

Helen,

I am grateful to God that you allow Scripture to speak its own truth coming from Jesus our Lord.

Some on the board have believed the Devil's lie as to the true Gospel.

In Joel 2:28 God said that He would pour out His Spirit of prophecy on not only the sons but the daughters.

It sure is nice to hear a woman rightly divide the Word of truth.

It is sad that some men think they have the Spirit of prophecy when in fact they are probably preaching truths that the Lord God hates.

I am sure from your correct understanding of the Word, these other men twist themselves into theological, erring pretzels.

Keep on explaining the truth. It is sure a great feeling to know you have the correct views coming from His sacred Word.

 

[Helen]

Just want to respond to a few of the points since my first post here.

The 'elect' are the Jews. I was deeply involved in this forum a year or so ago and things got so nasty I quit, but not before, when challenged regarding who I thought the elect were, that I took that challenge and did an in depth study, checking EVERY time it is used in the NT. My husband put the study up on his website here:
http://www.setterfield.org/elect.htm

Regarding the repeated references to the progression in Romans 8, I have found that Calvinists/Reformed folk consistently ignore the beginning of the actual passage itself:

And we know in all things God works for the good of those who love him
who have been called according to his purpose.
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son...

The predestination has to do with being conformed to the likeness of the Son, not with believing. The first thing we see in the above is those who love God. We see an equation between those who love Him and those who have been called according to His purpose, but there is no cause and effect mentioned between the two. Calvinists believe that people love God because they have been called. The other option is that anyone who loves God is simultaneously called according to His purpose, because He already KNEW.


As far as Dave Hunt goes, I have enormous respect for the man and have read most of what he has written. However, as to who is saved and who is not, only God knows the heart, so I am in no position to comment regarding anyone's salvation.


Larry brought up 2 Thessalonians 2:13 -- But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

This has to do with the method of salvation, not who will be saved. Please note how the NIV translates it, which is a little more accurate to the Greek:

But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers love by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. He called to you through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Note that the sentence following the one Larry quoted has to do with how people were called -- not via predestination, but via the gospel. And the method of salvation, determined before time began, was through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and belief in the truth.


Ephesians 1:4, which is a favorite Calvinist 'proof text' does not have to do with who will be a believer, but with the predestined destination of each believer. Here it is in context:

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will -- to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

Paul mentions predestination in this same sense in verses 11-12. Notice also the following verse, verse 13, which I put in bold:

In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be fore the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession --- to the praise of his glory.

Note in the bolded part that the receivers of this epistles were NOT included in Christ (which would have been the case had they been predestined to be believers) when they heard the word of truth. It was WHEN they believed, and not before, that they were given the Holy Spirit, the guarantee of their inheritance. If they had been predestined to be believers, Paul could not have stated this process this way. It was not until they heard the gospel and believed that they were included in Christ and given the Holy Spirit. This directly refutes the concept of predestination. The trick with the Calvinist 'proof texts' is to put them back into context!

Nor is it the same thing, as Larry has claimed, that predestination to be a believer is the same as predestination to be conformed to Christ. Logically, it is quite possible to have been predestined to be a believer but not predestined to be conformed to Christ! But that is not the way God chose to do it. Predestination refers, every time, to the condition of the believer, not to the fact of his believing. The fact that once someone is born again in Christ he will inevitably become conformed to Christ through the work of the Holy Spirit (Phil. 1:6 and others)is what is being stated in the predestination verses!

Scott wrote the following:

Jesus died for the sins of believers. Who will believe? The elect.

You wouldn't say that Jesus died for the sins of unbelievers would you? If Jesus died for "everyone's" sins then God cannot hold any sin against anyone. If as non-calvinists demand, it is truly man's independent, unregenerate, willful choice that secures his salvation then provision must necessarily have been provided for everyone...

Your system has a more difficult quandry than ours. If you say that Christ died for all sin then no one can be lost or else it is man's choice that saves him and not Christ's sacrifice since His death is useless until man adds his decision.


Scott, Hebrews says quite clearly that Jesus died for all sin for all time; one sacrifice for all. The famous John 3:16 is followed by the statement that people are not condemned because of sin but because of unbelief. That is biblical. That is also why it is such an insult to God to refuse Christ -- precisely because He DID die for us all -- Peter states clearly that God is not willing that ONE should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

Those words are really true. Salvation HAS been provided for everyone. But not everyone wants it! And that is where free will comes in. We are free to continue to insult God with our disobedience and refusal to believe, but that does not change one tiny bit the fact that Jesus died for all of us. That is the clear message of Hebrews 2:9, among many other verses.

Did people before Christ know the gospel? Yes. The writer of Hebrews states, It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."

We also read that Job KNEW his Redeemer lived and that he, and not another, would, in his flesh, see Him. The gospel was known from Eve on, and those who believed were always those who were saved, as Hebrews 11, at the very least, testifies.

 

[TCassidy]

1Ti 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

Are the angels all Jews? No? Crash goes another theory. "This has nothing to do with men" is not the point. The point is that it has to do with "the elect."

 

[whatever]

Helen,

The biggest problem that I have with your view, the reason that I abandoned it, is that it changes Christ's saving work to a mere provision for salvation. I think the Bible describes it in much stronger terms than that. "He will save His people from their sins", not "He will provide a way of salvation for His people should they decide to accept it".

About Romans 8 - those whom He predestined are the ones whom He called. Clearly the predestining had to happen before the calling, and the calling had to happen before the believing.

I would be interested to hear your take on 1 Thess. 1:4-5:

For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction.

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by Helen:
Just want to respond to a few of the points since my first post here.

The 'elect' are the Jews. I was deeply involved in this forum a year or so ago and things got so nasty I quit, but not before, when challenged regarding who I thought the elect were, that I took that challenge and did an in depth study, checking EVERY time it is used in the NT. My husband put the study up on his website here:
http://www.setterfield.org/elect.htm

Hello Helen,

Sorry, but in your deep study you missed a few things. That's ok..it happens

1 Peter 5:13 - The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

the church here...not jews

1 Thessalonians 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; 4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

oops...another church


2 John 1:1 - The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;

lady?..most say this is a cryptic way of addressing a church in safeguard against the letter falling into the hands of those hostile to the church.

and then you have the angel..but you know about that one now
*******************

Now ray..if you do not say something about this strange view...i will have to remove my respect that i handed you the other day.
we shall see...

only the jews?

try again.

i have other verse if you need more.

In Christ..James

 

[Jarthur001]

hi helen...me again

I asked 2 things..you may have missed them. Let me repost...

1) Who elected (choose) who?
2) When did the elction happen?

Now...Tim has already helped you with this one. If you are not sure..read his post and you may find the answer.

Here is another way to ask it.

1) Is it Gods election, or self election?
2) Was the election when you were saved, or before you were born?

Pretty easy..

In Christ..James

 

[Jarthur001]

Do not call me "broadband james"...but i thought i would address context of ephs 1.

Context is King is my saying...

The context is..."blessings we have in our salvation"

Others have addressed this better then I have, but one link where i addressed it is below.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1586/5.html#000063


In Christ..James

 

[Helen]

TCassidy, I dealt with that in my essay.

whatever, He will save his people from their sins is a direct reference to the Jewish people. They were 'his people' -- the people He came from. As Jesus told the Canaanite woman in Matthew 15, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." They were His people. It was Paul, later, who talked about the mystery that the Gentiles were also included -- although this 'mystery' had certainly already been revealed to Abraham at the least!

Also, to whatever, it is not a matter of simple 'predestinating', but of predestinating to what? It is never said predestinating to believe, but, rather, predestinating to become like Christ. In other words, no believer will be left half-baked or left behind. All of us are predestined to be completed in our transformation.

If Christ had not died for everyone, then there would still be eternal insults standing against God. There are not. He took care of them all. "It is finished" was not "for a few" but in total. The debt was fully and completely paid on behalf of all humanity. It is what we do with that which gives us heaven or hell for eternity.

Jarthur001, the verse you pointed out in 1 Peter 5:13 is not the verb which translates into 'elect'. The verb is 'syneklektos' -- it is used only that one time in the entire Bible and the translation is 'chosen together with,' (NIV) or 'chosen in company with' (Strongs concordance). The word 'elect' there, in other words, is not a good translation and is not in the original.

1 Thess. 1:3 -- this is not a reference to 'the elect', but to God's choosing of them, and Paul explains more as you read -- context is everything: "For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen [elected] you because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction."

In other words, their conviction led to their election, or choosing. Still, this is not the same as 'THE elect', which are mentioned a number of times in the NT.

2 John 1:1 -- I dealt with that in the essay, which if you had even scanned it, you would have seen.

Please, before you slam what I have put forward from what research I have done, at least read the research. I personally was quite surprised by what I found. I did not go into it with a presupposition about what I would find, but was answering a challenge and was fully prepared to let the Bible lead me in what the answer would be.

 

[whatever]

Helen,

First, we are His people. It is those of faith who are the children of Abraham. He has saved us from our sins. Whether the people living at the time of Matthew 1 understood that yet is irrelevant.

Second, all of those predestined "to become like Christ" were called, and all of those called were justified. That is the point I brought up, and you have not addressed it.

Third, you say "It is what we do with that which gives us heaven or hell for eternity." If this is true then Christ actually saved no one from the wrath of God; instead that is left up to us. That is not the way the NT speaks of the work of Christ.

Fourth, you say concerning 1 Thess. 1 that "this is not a reference to 'the elect', but to God's choosing of them". Only if you impose your definition of 'the elect' on the verse. In other words this is a circular argument - 'the elect' means 'the Jews', so anywhere the NT references those chosen for salvation it cannot be in reference to 'the elect', even if that is the language that the NT uses. That is just bad logic.

 

[Jarthur001]

hi helen,

This is getting far away from the OP, but if you want we shall go forward. You came into the tread with a statement clipped below.

Helen says..“There is nothing to indicate that anyone is chosen before they are created to be a believer or not a believer.”

My reply was simple. I asked you to read Ephs 1 and answer 2 things. This is listed below..

James ask…
1) who choose who?
2) When was the choosing?


Still no answer.

But...Your reply was,in MY words….”now look…I have study this and I know what I’m talking about. I have made..An in-depth study..so listen to me…read my report.”

2 things on this …
You seem to assume that others have not made an in-depth study. Not sure of this, for I was not alive at the time..but I think Calvin did a study too. Nor can I say his study was as great as your study, for I do not know how long you study this. I do know that Calvin had more resources to pull from, in both greek and latin text. I think he used these resources too. Luther I would say did a word study or two. The man from hippo…he had more resources then any of us to pull from..and my guess is he used them. spurgeon..pink…packer…many others..i bet they did a word study too, what do you think?

Guess what…I have too. Now some people think that Calvinist are only brainwashed fools that read a book or 2 on Calvin and fall into a trance…and as ray says…"do not think on their own". It may surprise you to know that I do read the Bible. It may also surprise you to know that I do not take Calvin for only his words he writes. It may surprise you that I have taken NT Greek classes. Now your study may have covered many more years then mine and it is not my goal to say I have a higher plane of understanding then you. I just want to point out..i’m not a dead robot that only reads calvin as some seem to think, but rather I too study. Calvins words must be inline with the Bible or it is no good to me. And as I have said…the Bible is what I really study…and I have done this for many years.

Again…do not take that I know more then you. I have no idea your field of study. I just want you to know..you are not the 1st to study this one word. I do not have a report posted..i do not need to.

2nd..

I do know this. Your claim that the elect is only the jews is flat out wrong and yes you must have missed it. The word gives the idea of..choosen and can be used with one nation…and or other things. To do a word study on this one word you will see this.

When we vote on election day..we vote or choose someone and not the other person or persons. We pick..we choose..we elect....same idea.

"syneklektos"...Chosen as a group..or as the NIV says..chosen together...or as your note says above...chosen in company with.....ALL HAVE THE SAME IDEA. No slaming...just the truth. This group is the church

in this one line...helen says..
In other words, their conviction led to their election, or choosing. Still, this is not the same as 'THE elect', which are mentioned a number of times in the NT.

the elect means ..."the ones that are choosen". The ones that got picked. When you go to get ice cream at basket and robbins you pick what you like. It is your choice. What you pick…is your elect. Same idea.

You must have seen this in your study. David was Hebrew ..a choosen people…and David was picked over his brothers. Not salvation, but a picture of Gods election.

The apostles had to PICK a new apostle. They had a few to choose from…the one they PICKED was their elect. Yet…really it was Gods choosing…was it not?

Now for some reason you have elected not to answer what I asked

1) who choose who?
2) When was the choosing?

This would help in your study.

In Christ..James

 

[Brother James]

I never could reconcile how some of my Baptist brethren can "free will" thier way into salvation and then suddenly become Calvinists when it comes to eternal security. They always seem to lose thier free will there. At least our fully Armenian brthren are consistant.

Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,


Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.


Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:


Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises;


Rom 9:5 Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.


Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:


Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.


Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


Rom 9:9 For this [is] the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.


Rom 9:10 And not only [this]; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac;


Rom 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth


Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.


Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.


Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.


Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.


Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.


Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.


Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?


Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?


Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:


Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Hi Me4him;
I believe the problem most have in following Christ is dying daily. Every day we must die without exception. The reason is because there is no man with out sin. Christ died once. We die to sin everyday.

Paul said he died daily;
1Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

RIGHT, and the only reason the whole world isn't saved, is because "everyone" isn't willing to "DIE FOR SALVAATION".

This is why God is "Justified" to condemn them, salvation was offered, but they refused it.

If there's one verse in the Bible that Calvinist fail to understand, it's that "GOD'S GRACE" (LOVE) is "GREATER" than all of "MAN'S SINS".

Ro 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound.

But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

This is confirmed in that God loved the whole world, Jesus didn't condemn the world, died for the sins of the whole world, that the whole world "MIGHT BE SAVED".

Satan brought "condemnation" to the whole world, Jesus brought "REDEMPTION" to the whole world.

"LOVE" (GRACE) is the "FREE WILL CHOICE" of a person, Just as God can "CHOSE" whom he will "LOVE", Man, being made in the "Images of God", can also "CHOSE" whom he will "LOVE".

Mt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


"LOVE" can't be "Programmed" into a person as "predestination" dictates, else God would be very "Cruel", "Prejudice" for programming some, but not all.

Angels were given a "Choice", and a third chose to follow Satan, and Man is given a "Choice", in the eternal heaven, neither Angel/Man will be there who hasn't made the "CHOICE", Heaven won't consist of "programmed robots".


God's "GRACE" (love) is extended to "ALL MEN", he only "ASK" that "WE" return that "GRACE". (love)

[ October 05, 2005, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: Me4Him ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Helen:
The 'elect' are the Jews.

This is an extremely inadequate view of Scripture. It cannot be arrived at by Scripture alone. Several examples of this have already been shown. In addition, we must point out that "elect" is used in passages referring to both Jews and Gentiles, and in Romans 11:7 is used in contrast to Israel. Therefore, we cannot conclude from Scripture that "elect" is only the Jews.

The predestination has to do with being conformed to the likeness of the Son, not with believing.

But the progression still works though calling, justification, and glorification. So clearly, they were predestined before they were called, justified, and glorified.

Larry brought up 2 Thessalonians 2:13 -- But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

This has to do with the method of salvation, not who will be saved. Please note how the NIV translates it, which is a little more accurate to the Greek:

But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers love by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. He called to you through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is simply a bad explanation. First, there is no substantive difference between teh NASB and the NIV. Second, it is clearly wrong to say the NIV is more accurate than the Greek. If you can read Greek, get it out and look at it. The passage as "God chose you" before "from the beginning." The NIV reverses the order. Third, the object of "choose" is "you." Whatever you think about election, you have to conclude that God chose people. There is no way to make this about a method.

Note that the sentence following the one Larry quoted has to do with how people were called -- not via predestination, but via the gospel. And the method of salvation, determined before time began, was through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and belief in the truth.

Which, as we have pointed out ad nauseum, and which you should know by now, is irrelevant. We do not deny the use of hte gospel. We demand (unlike some) that the gospel be a part of the regeneration. People will not be saved without the gospel. You are right that the method was determined before time began. But that is not what this passage is about.

Note in the bolded part that the receivers of this epistles were NOT included in Christ (which would have been the case had they been predestined to be believers) when they heard the word of truth. It was WHEN they believed, and not before, that they were given the Holy Spirit, the guarantee of their inheritance. If they had been predestined to be believers, Paul could not have stated this process this way. It was not until they heard the gospel and believed that they were included in Christ and given the Holy Spirit. This directly refutes the concept of predestination.

No it doesn't. You continue to demonstrate misunderstanding. Many try this tack and it doesn't work. You confuse predestination, or election, with salvation. They are not them same. 2 Tim 2:10 clearly shows that some of the elect were not yet saved. One can be elect before they get saved. They are saved when they believe. Don't confuse these things.

Nor is it the same thing, as Larry has claimed, that predestination to be a believer is the same as predestination to be conformed to Christ. Logically, it is quite possible to have been predestined to be a believer but not predestined to be conformed to Christ!

Huh?? That would deny Scripture, it seems to me. Not sure what this means, nor why you would say "This is not the way God chose to do it."

Predestination refers, every time, to the condition of the believer, not to the fact of his believing.

Which isn't really the point here. The point is that according to Rom 8, they were predestined before they believed.

Again, we see your misunderstanding of what we teach, and your willing to ignore what the biblical text says.