According to Dave Hunt, It's a Good Thing That I was Arminian First...

[Ray Berrian]

Brother James,

Some sinners choose everyday to lead moral lives. The do not 'run around on their wives,' they work for a living, pay their bills and love their children and even give to charitable causes.

We believe that sinners are depraved in that Adam's Fall made us all sinners from God's perspective. We are not so depraved that we cannot as sinners think good thoughts and have the God given powers to make both good and bad decisions. So when the Holy Spirit calls a sinner to salvation he or she can welcome the saving message or shun it as duly noted in Acts 7:51. If sinners were 'Totally Depraved' they would always make evil choices because they would be programmed by the Lord to always choose evil actions.

Yes, at the Fall in the Garden of Eden human beings became alienated from the Lord God, but He still left cognitive responses within human beings so they can, without irresistible force, decide to welcome Jesus into their lives. Often they reject the invitation to have a relationship to God, because of multiple reasons.

Our cognitive responses keeps the door opened so human beings can receive His grace and, unfortunately, to reject Christ's offer of grace and eternal life.

When Christ calls people by His Spirit, He enables them to respond to his offer of hope, grace and a future with Him in Heaven.

When a sinner reads a salvation tract, he or she very well understands the concept; they may wish to reject it for various reasons.

There is no question in the mind of an Arminian or a Calvinist that God helps the sinner to be convicted of sin and of His aid in helping sinners to believe and trust in Him.

 

[Brother James]

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:


Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Brother Ray, help me out with Jhn 1:13

 

[Helen]

James, look at what you have quoted. Is it us that He has chosen before the foundation of the world or that we who are believers, who are in Him, should be holy and without blame before Him?

The second lines up with Revelation 13:8 which tells us He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. It is this which makes us holy before Him. His work was actually accomplished from the foundation and played out in time.

Calvinism separates the two parts of that sentence. It is not "We were chosen." It is that we were chosen to be holy and blameless and this He did for us.

Look at this from John 1 -- "He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
He came to that which was his own, but hiw own did not receive him"
STOP! His own did not receive Him? Who were His own? The Jews. They did not receive Him. And yet, earlier in this thread when I mentioned that His people were the Jews, I was contradicted. OK, but there it is.

But let's continue with that passage:

"Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God..."

This is what was predestinated, James! That those who believe would be adopted as His children! It is not who would believe that was predestined. It was what would happen to them when they chose to believe.

Bible explains Bible. That is so necessary to understand...

 

[Brother James]

So you're saying we were born of our own will?

 

[Ray Berrian]

TCassidy,

You said, 'God does not force anybody. He just makes us willing to come to Him.'

If salvation has nothing to do with human beings response, as you think, then the only other view is that God does it all. If He is in charge of all salvations and damnations, and sinners have no decision to be made, then as you say, 'He just makes us willing . . . ' meaning He has influenced, led or prodded into the salvation experience those who will ultimately be saved. Remember, your theory says that man does nothing
in relation to a transition from eternal death and into everlasting life.

In the cases of those who will experience eternal destruction in the Lake of Fire, according to your view, they had not one iota of negative response toward the Lord or responsibility for ending up in the flames of Hell. [End Quote].

Our view comes from John 3:16-18.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brother James,

God originated the plan for our restoration from the Fall. He came and died on the Cross for our sins, as you well know. Our 'spiritual new birth' is because of God.

Our experience of salvation has not come about because of our human blood or good family lineage. Our salvation did not originate with our kind of 'self help' salvation. This will not 'fly' either, though some people think if they do enough good in this life, God will receive them into Heaven. This, of course, is not true and would mean that our salvation was by '. . . the will of the flesh.'

Salvation is also not 'by the will of man' as though we somehow can bring about our own devised way to salvation and Heaven.

We become saved by receiving God's Son [John 1:12; and I John 5:12 & 13].

 

[Pastor Larry]

Calvinism separates the two parts of that sentence. It is not "We were chosen." It is that we were chosen to be holy and blameless and this He did for us.

Being chosen to be holy and blameless is being chosen to be saved. That is what it means to be saved ... to have Christ's righteousness imputed to us.

STOP! His own did not receive Him? Who were His own? The Jews. They did not receive Him. And yet, earlier in this thread when I mentioned that His people were the Jews, I was contradicted. OK, but there it is.

That's not what you said above. Above, you said that the elect were Jews. Here, it is "his own" that are in view, not "the elect." You can tell that by reading the words. IN addition, words have meaning in context. "Elect" does not always refer to the same group, just as "son of Man" doesn't always refer to the same person, or "Saul," or "John," or any hosts of other words.

 

[Brother James]

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.


Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.


Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Jhn 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.


Jhn 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?


Jhn 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.


Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Our view comes from John 3:16-18.

No, it doesn't. My view comes from John 3:16, and the rest of the New Testament. Man cannot come to God on his own merits. Period.

 

[Helen]

You are arguing a false argument TCassidy. No one is arguing that man comes to God on his own merits. Salvation is a gift. Part of the gift is that we are allowed to accept or reject it. That does not mean we did anything to merit it.

 

[Helen]

James, please, what do you do with Matthew 11:28-30?

Doesn't Bible interpret and explain Bible?

 

[Brother James]

Originally posted by Helen:
James, please, what do you do with Matthew 11:28-30?

Doesn't Bible interpret and explain Bible?

I believe it. Pretty plain in my KJV.

 

[Ray Berrian]

TCassidy,

I agree with you that man cannot come to God with his own merit; period!!

Ray

 

[Scott J]

If God regenerates a person and the renewed spirit of that person accepts Christ then God gets the glory.

However, if everything involved in salvation is a direct result of an independent, good choice by an unregenerate man... then how can that not be something that the man deserves merit for?

The "choice" ultimately has as its cause God's will or the man's will. There are no other possibilities that anyone has ever shown to me. If it is God's will then all the merit belongs to Him- the very epitome of grace. But if it is man's will then a saved person goes to heaven on the merit of their choice.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Helen:
You are arguing a false argument TCassidy.

No, I am not. You are.

No one is arguing that man comes to God on his own merits. Salvation is a gift. Part of the gift is that we are allowed to accept or reject it. That does not mean we did anything to merit it.

What you fail to understand is that, apart from the grace of God, you could not accept it. You think your will is free, but, in fact, it is not. It is bound to the law of sin and death. You cannot exercise your "free will" while it is still in bondage to the law of sin and death. You, as with all Arminians, have the cart before the horse. You can only have a will that is free after it has been freed from the law of sin and death. You keep thinking there is something good about your "free will" that allows you to "freely choose" Christ when the bible is clear that you are an enemy of God, your will is in bondage to the law of sin and death, and you cannot come to Him at all.

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by Brother James:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Helen:
James, please, what do you do with Matthew 11:28-30?

Doesn't Bible interpret and explain Bible?

I believe it. Pretty plain in my KJV. </font>[/QUOTE]OK, then who are the burdened and heavy-laden? Only those who are already chosen by God to be saved?

 

[Helen]

TCassidy, being in bondage to sin and death does not mean one cannot accept the gift of life. A hand is offered to a drowning man. He can either grab it or refuse it.

 

[Pastor Larry]

OK, then who are the burdened and heavy-laden? Only those who are already chosen by God to be saved?

IT seems to me that you are omitting the will from this. The burdened and heavy laden may include all sinners, but they will not come and thus will not be saved. For all your talk about free will and choices, you seem to ignore that people have to make that choice. As Christ said, they "are unwilling to come to me that they might have life." Those who go to hell do so because they refuse to accept Christ. God is not stopping them.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Helen:
TCassidy, being in bondage to sin and death does not mean one cannot accept the gift of life. A hand is offered to a drowning man. He can either grab it or refuse it.

Of course it does! Being in bondage to the law of sin and death means that not only can't the person accept the gift of life, he can't understand it, and despises the One making the offer, and would sooner drown than accept His help, which, of course, he doesn't believe he needs anyway!

And the idea that the drowning man can reach up and grab the proffered hand is proof that you do believe you can do something to assist in your own salvation. For the analogy to be correct the drowning man would have to be unconscious, helpless, unable to move at all, let alone help himself by reaching up to his rescuer. Your view, when all the empty rhetoric is stripped away, is works based salvation.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Helen:
TCassidy, being in bondage to sin and death does not mean one cannot accept the gift of life. A hand is offered to a drowning man. He can either grab it or refuse it.

That analogy describes a victim who is not dead nor blind nor bound.

The correct analogy using your characters would be that a man bound in shackles, ball, and chain who has fallen overboard and died (thus blind and death)... will not grab anything. He will continue to sink to the very bottom of the chasm.

It would be useless to offer a hand. The only useful help would be for someone to jump in (Christ), free him from his bondage, breath new life into him, making him able to breath, see, and hear.