According to Dave Hunt, It's a Good Thing That I was Arminian First...

[Helen]

And the opposite of 'they are unwilling' is 'they are willing.' Some are willing to go to Christ and have life.

In the meantime, His invitation is to all and His atonement was for all.

You say, as a Calvinist, "God is not stopping them." But if God created them so that they would not be able to accept His gift of salvation, then He is very much stopping them!

 

[Ray Berrian]

Does anyone on the board value what Jesus says? I am sure some do and most everyone thinks they value His statements.

Does this verse sound like the Lord's sovereign choice of some and not other sinners?

Jesus said in John 5:40,

'And ye will not come to Me, that you might have life.'

Obviously, Jesus requires that sinners respond to the calling of the Holy Spirit to salvation.

Make sure you come to Jesus or you do not have His spiritual life within your soul.

Waiting for the 'Calvinistic wand' to touch your head will never bring about eternal salvation.

 

[KayDee]

Forgive me TCassidy for butting in but it seems the problem has surfaced….maybe. Please also forgive the length but I could see no way to cut it down with using Scripture and explaining why it was used.

Helen said:
“TCassidy, being in bondage to sin and death does not mean one cannot accept the gift of life. A hand is offered to a drowning man. He can either grab it or refuse it.”

That may be the problem, to all the misunderstandings. The unbeliever is not drowning! His lungs are already filled to the brim with water, He is dead. He is in bondage to sin because he is dead.

Genesis 2:16-17 Adam's spiritual death for disobedience

"16The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

Did he die physically that day? He may have begun to but this said die that day. How did he die that day? Spiritually! Dead men can’t grab a hand that is trying to help him. They are already at the bottom of the lake. Only God can draw him out of the water and give him life. He can’t ask God to – he’s dead!

Romans 5:12 That same death passes upon us

"12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."

Ephesians 2:1-3 We must be made alive

"1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,"

Romans 8:6-8 Man can’t come to God one his own

"To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

1 Cor. 1:18 The whole cross thing is folly to them

"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

Our flesh can not say yes; it can not please God.

Joh 3:3 Must be spiritually born again to even understand/perceive/see the kingdom

"Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

So, God makes our spirits alive, changes our natures and now we want to and are able to say, “Yes, Lord, be the Lord of my life.” Even though elected, we still the responsibility to give ourselves to the Master. But, we have to have a spiritual life to do it. Otherwise, we don’t care in the least about spiritual matters.

John 3:5-6 New birth necessary to enter kingdom

"5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Tit 3:4-7 Water and Spirit

"But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life."


I know many of you don’t even come close to agreeing with this. I know I didn’t during two years of study – it wasn’t until I admitted I could be wrong (Chris Temple lovingly and patiently helped me to understand through the Word) that my eyes were opened and I finally understood the power and glory of my God.

Forever In His Grace
KayDee

PS It's good to be back!!

 

[Pastor Larry]

And the opposite of 'they are unwilling' is 'they are willing.' Some are willing to go to Christ and have life.

Yes.

In the meantime, His invitation is to all and His atonement was for all.

Yes, and sufficient for all.

You say, as a Calvinist, "God is not stopping them." But if God created them so that they would not be able to accept His gift of salvation, then He is very much stopping them!

God didn't create them that way. (That is why traducianism is the proper asnwer to a previous question.) They are "that way" because they are "in Adam" as Romans 5 says. God isn't keeping them that way. They can turn to God at any time they want to. The problem is that they don't want to, and God doesn't force them against their will. He lets them go.

 

[Helen]

Then there are those who are not 'in Adam'?

 

[Me4Him]

Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, (Spirit calling) and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

The door to the heart, only has a "Door knob" on the "Inside", and can only be opened from the "inside".

The "Choice" of the individual to open/keep the door closed, determines where Jesus comes in or stays out.

IF ANY MAN, Many are called, but few chosen because they refused to "open the door".

Since God's plan of salvation was for "ALL", God doesn't judge people for being "SINNERS", but for "REMAINING SINNERS" (unbelief) when they could have "BELIEVED" and their sins been paid for by Jesus.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned:

but he that believeth not is condemned already,

And why are they condemned, being sinners, NO, "UNBELIEF".

because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Predestination doesn't allow either person, saved/unsaved, a "CHOICE" of "belief/Unbelief".

Actually, people are condemned because they were offered and refused salvation.

God must make people awares of their sins, this he does by the giving of the law and the "SPIRIT CALLING".

Ro 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Predestination denies that "OUR FAITH", "OUR BELIEF", plays any part in our salvation.

Ro 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

"FAITH IS NOT A WORKS".

Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

When you take "MAN'S FAITH" in God out of the equation of Salvation, you destroy a doctrine taught from "Genesis to Revelations", and that predestination does.

Ge 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

 

[Ray Berrian]

The post from east Tennessee is correct.

I am pleased that you do not let the cobwebs of Calvinism cloud you spiritual perception.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, (Spirit calling) and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

The door to the heart, only has a "Door knob" on the "Inside", and can only be opened from the "inside".

I've seen that painting, and it makes for "good preaching" I guess, but I've never read that in the Bible. God needs no door knob.

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Predestination doesn't allow either person, saved/unsaved, a "CHOICE" of "belief/Unbelief".

This is not true. Those who are saved get exactly what they want. Those who are lost get exactly what they want. Everybody gets to choose. Whether their choice was predetermined is irrelevant to your point.

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Predestination denies that "OUR FAITH", "OUR BELIEF", plays any part in our salvation.

This is not true. By grace we are saved, through faith.

 

[Helen]

If choice is predetermined, it is not choice! Predetermined choice is an oxymoron!

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Helen:
If choice is predetermined, it is not choice! Predetermined choice is an oxymoron!

Are you sure?

Was Christ's death predetermined?

Did He choose to die for us?

Was the participation of Pilate and Herod and the Romans and the Jews in Christ's death predetermined?

Did they choose to crucify Christ?

Check out Acts 4:27-28.

 

[Helen]

I can only use Jesus' words in response:

"Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!"

God's foreknowledge is not the same as predestination. The choice was free, but He knew what the choice would be.

As far as Christ's choice goes, Rev. 13:8 tells us that Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. His choice was made before, which is quite a different thing, since He is God.

If your choice is predetermined (vs. pre-known), then you don't really have a choice. You are a robot.

 

[whatever]

Helen,

You are correct that foreknowledge and predestination are not the same. But then you try to take this instance where the Bible speaks of a predestined act and say that it means a foreknown act. Most of the modern translations (that I know of) use the word "predestined" or something very similar in Acts 4:27-28 to describe the death of Christ at the hands of Pilate and Herod and the Romans and the Jews. The KJV uses "determined before". The word is 'proorizo', for which Thayer offers these meanings:

1) to predetermine, decide beforehand
2) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand

The word is much stronger than "pre-known". They were all doing what God had determined that they would, and yet they all chose to participate, and they are all accountable for their choice just as Jesus said they would be. There is no way around it. The Bible is clear.

As for Rev. 13:8, are you really saying that since His death was decided from eternity that Christ made no choice 2,000 years ago? That His "not my will but Thy will" prayer really didn't mean anything? That His obedience even to death on the cross was the obedience of a robot? Surely not.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Then there are those who are not 'in Adam'?

No, the Bible says that all men are in Adam.

If choice is predetermined, it is not choice! Predetermined choice is an oxymoron!

But you are faced with the same problem unless you are an open theist. Since God's knows from eternity past what "Joe's" choice will be, Joe is not free to change his mind. Joe is born with no hope of doing anything other than what God knows he will do. The only substantive difference is the matter of who is in control.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Helen:
If choice is predetermined, it is not choice! Predetermined choice is an oxymoron!

Are you sure?

Was Christ's death predetermined?

Did He choose to die for us?

Was the participation of Pilate and Herod and the Romans and the Jews in Christ's death predetermined?

Did they choose to crucify Christ?

Check out Acts 4:27-28. </font>[/QUOTE]You can't compare Jesus's death with man's death.

Man has a choice, but if the world was to be saved, the wages of sin had to be paid, in that respect Jesus had to die.

But even Jesus said he had a choice:

Mt 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

Joh 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

Calvin doctrine teaches that "GOD" "segregate" people according to the rule of "predestination",

but Scripture teaches that "PEOPLE" segregate themselves according to their "belief/Unbelief".

God is no respecter of persons, all have sinned, Calvin doctrine isn't far removed from the doctrine Jews held against "Gentiles". (dogs)

Ac 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Ac 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

And what is the requirement of salvation???

Ac 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through (your) faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Predestination takes away the necessity of "OUR FAITH" to be saved,

And the "justification" to condemn "unbelief".

BY "Foreknowledge" God wrote the names of the saved, but folks who don't believe in "OSAS" doctrine, evidently thinks God must "erase" some of the names he wrote, doesn't say much for God's foreknowledge, does it??

I don't think some know what they believe themselves.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Helen:
And the opposite of 'they are unwilling' is 'they are willing.' Some are willing to go to Christ and have life.

"Willing" is an effect... which demands a cause or a series of causes that ultimately lead to a prime cause.

Grace by definition and calvinism by explanation say that ultimately the cause of this willingness is God. He frees a sinner from His bonds and resurrects him from spiritual death first. If the man's decision is the prime cause then the analogies of being spiritually "dead, blind, and deaf" are non-sensical.

If one man has within himself the independent "goodness" to choose Christ while another rejects him and it is this difference that separates the saved from the unsaved then salvation necessarily hinges on the goodness and merit of the man.

You cannot reasonably say that on the one hand salvation is by grace, the unmerited favor of God, and on the other hand wholly dependent upon an independent decision/act of goodness on the part of a rebellious sinner.

You say, as a Calvinist, "God is not stopping them." But if God created them so that they would not be able to accept His gift of salvation, then He is very much stopping them!

God is not stopping them and did not create them that way.

I believe that Adam was representative. IOW's, I believe he ultimately made the same decision that you, I, Pastor Larry, or anyone else would have made- except for Christ who was divine. We aren't told how long it took him to fall nor how long it would take us to fall.

 

[Scott J]

Calvin doctrine teaches that "GOD" "segregate" people according to the rule of "predestination",

but Scripture teaches that "PEOPLE" segregate themselves according to their "belief/Unbelief".

No. Scripture teaches both. What you fail to address here is the causes for belief and unbelief. The cause for belief is God's grace. The cause for unbelief is man's rebellion and sin.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Predestination takes away the necessity of "OUR FAITH" to be saved,

This is a commonly held misconception. Predestination, or election, does not remove the necessity of faith. It rather ensures that people will believe.

 

[Paul33]

Predestination is something God does to those whom he foreknew (Romans 8:29).

Those whom God foreknew he determined beforehand that they would indeed be conformed to the likeness of his Son.

The problem with these discussions is the failure to distinguish between what took place in the mind of God before the foundation of the earth and what takes place in time and space in the here and now.

God foreknew what man with free will would do in the universe he decided to create. He foreknew that Adam would sin; that man would be lost and helpless, that Christ would be lifted up, that Christ would draw all men to himself, that some would persist in rebellion and remain lost, that others would do nothing (not resist) and be swept along by God's grace, that some would therefore be in Christ through no merit or effort of their own, that some would also be outside of Christ through their own rebellion.

God can know this about the creatures he is going to create and still not be responsible for their choices.

Those God foreknew to be in Christ he predestined.

We all have a free will. Our free will is in bondage to sin. Christ lifted up counteracts sin in our lives (grace). Persistent rebellion rejects God's grace. Doing nothing (not resisting) brings us to the throne of grace whereby we receive the gift of repentance and faith to believe and turn. We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. A faith that God gives to those who do not persist in rebellion.

Therefore salvation is a complete gift from God not by works or man's merit. We respond in faith and repentance after being regenerated by God's Spirit and through that response, we are saved in the here and now.

Some will say that in Adam we can't help but resist, but I would counter that "Christ lifted up" counters that sin impulse and restores in every person the option of "not rebelling." I did not say "respond." It is when we stop striving againt the LORD (rebelling) that he grants us the gift of regeneration, repentance, and faith.

Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus might be an example here.

 

[Paul33]

The reason we have this discussion is because of the supralapsarianism of Beza and the adoption of this position by the English Puritans. I would suggest that this was not the position of John Calvin.

 

[Pastor Larry]

So what is the purpose of predestination if God "foreknew" what they would choose anyway? It sounds an awful like lot something God didn't need to do. They were going to be saved anyway. Election, or predestination, accomplishes something. It is not merely a throw in after God already knows what will happen. It is never presented in Scripture that way.

I think the bigger problem is the misunderstanding of foreknow. In salvation, it is not simply knowing ahead of time. As rom 11:2 indicates, it is a choosing.