Accuracy and Precision

[Precepts]

Remember, QS, that the AV 1611 was written in the MOST MODERN English of its day, as was virtually every other English BV ever made. There is NO SUCH THING as "Church English".

So what is it you're trying to say? God has to say it in modern English for anyone to understand? How does that logic apply to Greek then?

Another KJVO fallacy is that English has been "dumbed down". Actually, the language has simply CHANGED. Now, do you suppose that the average English speaker-reader of 1611 could pick up a copy of "Beowulf" in its original English & read it with comprehension? Or a written edition of Caedmon's Bible? Now, was English "dumbed down" in the time between Beowulf & the AV?

Then why is it yall have tried to see that the Bible has to be made simpler for the youth of today to understand? Did yall leave God out somewhere? Intelligence? Education?

Since it takes a dictionary to understand those hard sayings in any translation, then education is the key, not "easier" to read translations for less educated individuals.

Your arguement makes absolutely nonsense and is an admission of guilt. Even the most illiterate can understand a simple presentation of the Gospel from the KJB, he doesn't need it watered down into his linguistic understanding, to understand, It TAKES GOD! Oh, yeah, yall forgot about His role in salvation, huh?

Why not stop teaching and start PREACHING! ?

The longest gap between popular English BVs has been the time between the AV and the RV. And every earlier English Bible was written in the English style of its day. Now, did God retire in 1611, or is He still overseeing the printing & distribution of His word in the languages of the day?

No, God hasn't "retired", BUT He has perfected His Word in the KJB for all generations to come.

You refer to Beowulf as it's some near impossibility to understand, that there Cranston is an attempt to defeat the lesser, restraining him from gaining knowledge and understanding by convincing him that he would be wasting his time to read. That is identified as one of the tactics to maintain the "worker bee" society. Spouting out insignificance to the lesser, preventing his advancement.

Wouldn't encouraging some one to read Beowulf either determine the need for further education, or the event which will help increase learning and understanding along with the ability to think?

Doesn't inquisitive thinking invoke and excite the intelligence?

The same analogy will work in the reading of the KJB, Cranston. We ought more to educate and incite research than neglect those in need of advancement.

Reminds me of my daddy, who I love dearly, but he always had this way of discouraging me ny telling me that I wasn't this and wasn't that.

I purchased the 5 acres we live on in 1986. He told me how that was a big mistake and I could at best resale it for what I had in it 20 years later. Well, little did he know, we have in interest and principle $40,000, and it's paid for, that including taxes up to date. The land before you get to ours just sold for $15,000 an acre and sold for less, though part of the same subdivision and 5 acres as well. Let's see, that's 5 x 15,000 = 75,000, compared to 40,000 = a gain in property value in excess of 35,000 since the interest on the loan and the taxes are included in the 40,000.

I'm in the building trade, so my investment had that consideration in view of an increase, but that beat my expectations, and his too, by a substancial amount.

I believe in building the old fashioned way, it works and stands the test of time. The new techniques look better on paper, but time has recently shown a defect in the construction that had to relate back to the old way in order to maintain the structure avoiding the need of demolition.

So, Build? Yes. New techniques? Why bother, we want something we know will last!

Now, doesn't it just make sense to invest in our future by investing in our youth? Because of my investment, my 4 children have plenty of room to play and a little bit better security in the future. My thinking on the KJB exactly, I thought you'd understand!

 

[skanwmatos]

Originally posted by robycop3:
The last GB edition was published a mere 12 years before the first AV edition was.

You seem confused (as usual) about the facts. The Geneva Bible of 1599 was not a different edition from the 1560. It was a bootleg re-publication of the 1560 with the marginal notes edited. The text of the 1599 and the 1560 is the same, as the 1599 IS the 1560. So, your "12 years" is another misrepresentation of the facts. The Geneva predates the KJV by 51 years, not 12.

And you might try reading some of Milton's poetry from a couple of generations later. He made liberal use of the old pronouns. This does NOT make the case for any special "Church English".

And Milton, Shakespeare, and others were not writing in the common English of the day either. They were writing in a very formal form of English reserved for prose and the English stage. Once again, I challenge you to read "To The Reader." Doing just a little study will clear up a lot of your confusion and might make you appear to be a more honest man.

 

[Craigbythesea]

QuickeningSpirit,

I agree that we need to educate our young people rather than poke a piece of candy into their mouth to keep them happy. And I do not object to encouraging them to read the KJV instead of a paraphrastic translation that distorts the meaning of the Bible. But I do believe that young people should also be encouraged to study a good, accurate, contemporary translation of the Bible, such as the NASB, and compare it with the KJV and to learn for themselves why the KJV reads one way and the NASB another. I also believe that high school kids should begin learning the basics of Greek grammar and vocabulary so that they can begin more in-depth studies in the New Testament and have answers to the lies of J.W.’s and others who use the Greek language to teach young people lies.

A good example of such J.W. lies is their teaching that Jesus was really nailed to a stake rather than a cross. Just telling our young people that the J.W.’s are wrong is not enough. They need to be able to study the subject for themselves so that they will really know the truth. J.W.’s quote a paragraph from the standard Greek Lexicon by Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, and Danker and that lexicon says that the Greek word stauros meant “stake.” Our Christian young people of high school age need to be able to go into our church library and look up the Greek word stauros in that standard Greek Lexicon and see for themselves that the J.W.’s take their quote completely out of context, and that this lexicon really says that in New Testament times the word stauros also meant cross and that Jesus died on a cross, not a stake.

This lexicon lists all of the words alphabetically using the Greek words in the New Testament and the Greek alphabet rather than English words and the English alphabet. In order to find the meaning of a Greek word, the user has to know the Greek alphabet. How can our young people go into our church library and study the word stauros in this lexicon if they don’t know the Greek alphabet.

Let’s educate our young people so that others with pretended knowledge will not be able to lead them astray. The Greek language becomes a powerful tool in the hands of Christian young people who know how to use it to defend the truths of the Bible.

The King James Version is a very good and accurate translation, but it is not the only one. To tell our young people that it is the only good translation and that all the others are bad is to tell our young people a lie. Someday, many of them will learn that they were lied to about the King James Version, and when that happens, they will question everything about the King James Version, including the gospel message that they read in it. We can not afford to let that happen. Let’s be honest with ourselves and our young people about the King James Version and other translations.

 

[tinytim]

Ok I guess there is no KJVO that is willing to take my challenge and ask their youth group if they understand the verse posted. Either you are too scared to find out I'm right, or too proud to try it.

As for the part about teens leaving KJVO churches in droves..

That comes from experience. I know of 15 KJVO churches in central WV that have 0 teens. Get that, 0!

While the MV churches have thriving youth groups that go on mission trips, serve the community, and Share the gospel with the lost.

There is one KJVO church that I know of that has about 10 teens, but most of them are family. And the bussed kids that go to that church have been checking out our church and some others, because they told me they Don't understand the KJV, and are forced to use it at their other church.

Oh yeah, I just remembered that last year there was one church that wasn't KJVO that had an awesome youth group until the pastor got ahold of some bad doctrine (KJVO!), he then enforced it, guess what happened. Church Split!!! The teens and their parents are now involved in a church plant that is energizing this area. And the now KJVO church has no teens!

You see, from my little view of the world KJVO is hurting teens. It is holding them back.

BTW Why is it that most KJVO people hate CCM?
Maybe they don't, Just seems that way from where I sit.

So is anyone going to take my challenge?

 

[Precepts]

The King James Version is a very good and accurate translation, but it is not the only one. To tell our young people that it is the only good translation and that all the others are bad is to tell our young people a lie. Someday, many of them will learn that they were lied to about the King James Version, and when that happens, they will question everything about the King James Version, including the gospel message that they read in it. We can not afford to let that happen. Let’s be honest with ourselves and our young people about the King James Version and other translations.

I can agree with your logic, but not your statement.

On the part about jw's, my advice to anyone, including them, is to ask who the author of confusion is, they will always answer either satan, or the devil. I then ask why are they going around trying confuse people who know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and has saved them from their sin? They bow their heads and walk away. If they don't, I simply wish them "Good day, it's time for you to leave".

I understand what it is in your logic to be able to answer them, but I advise the one I gave, but just in case, I can answer them straight out of my King James Bible, accurately, and in context. That is where they're reproved every time, context.

If you impose those to learn Greek to understand the nasv, then certainly they will come to your same conclusion, but that is where the problem lies, the underlying Greek text.

There is not one passage in the King James that cannot be expressed by definition to give the proper and full meaning without complete acccuracy and the harmony of scripture.

The nasv "preferred" have too many allegations against the KJB to be considered credible, they use the same slash and burn technique as any and all others.

Would you care to give me one passage in the KJB that is error? I'll use only the KJB to answer you with a concise dictionary using the Strong's concordnace and the Webster's 1828 and gladly show you the KJB is more than accurate, but perfect.

I must warn you though, every other person in this forum has tried, but cannot do it without resorting to fallible texts, but then their allegations go dismissed due to the failing on their behalf to use proper references.

They rely on a lot of rhetoric, and even maintain the double-standard they accuse KJVO's . I am not KJVO, simply because the Word of God is preserved in the MSS the KJB translators used to give us the KJB. Uh, which is the Holy Bible, BTW.

To pull out the Greek and yet fail to teach English is error. It's the "Greek" used that propagates any error, and that would be the only way anyone would believe the KJB is wrong and a eprson has been lied to about it's accuracy.

Now you must be prepared to show me mercy, I only have a highschool diploma combined with a 135 I.Q.

 

[Precepts]

BTW Why is it that most KJVO people hate CCM?
Maybe they don't, Just seems that way from where I sit.

That is where your "problem" is, from where you sit.

The reason "most KJVO people hate ccm" is they have what is called discernment, not entangled in judgement. Look into that tiny, you'll be able to understand a few things about ccm and the KJVO position.

Your analogies are not exactly correct about what you label as KJVO churches, besides, are you aware of the evils of proselytizing other church memebers, I believe the Lord calls it "beguiling".

Since you make your analogies based on the actions of the youth in your area, it is obvious of the juvenile and yes, delinquent attitude towards the things of God.

Your remark about ccm doesn't surprise me one bit, anyone who can't discern between a "solemn sound" and honky-tonk bar room music, well, there comes a time to advise one to gain discernment and lay fallible measures of judging to the side.

If you would like, I'll give you several "KJVO" churches that have abounding youth in the work of the LORD. uh, and they even know how to use a dictionary.

http://www.pleasantview.org/

http://www.faithbaptistcamp/

Another is not to far from West Va. it's the Pleasant View Baptist Church in Hardisburg KY, Bless God they even get to present their work in the public schools.

But now your allegations will prove true concerning these young people are mostly family members, we don't believe you ought to draw children away from their parents with things that only please the flesh, besides, God is a "family man" not a youth director. Both these ministries are all about strengthening the home, and the families that make up those homes, which make up the church.

I'll dare to compare any of these with your "best"

 

[HankD]

I'll use only the KJB to answer you with a concise dictionary using the Strong's concordnace and the Webster's 1828 and gladly show you the KJB is more than accurate, but perfect...

Now you must be prepared to show me mercy, I only have a high school diploma combined with a 135 I.Q.

No mercy!

OK, whip out your 135 IQ , Strong’s and your 1828 dictionary and please tell me what this passage is saying (particularly the last 4 verses)!

No cheating, don’t look it up in your NIV!

BTW I’ve included the marginal notes from the 1611 First Edition in brackets.

1 Chronicles 26
12 Among these were the divisions of the porters, even among the chief men, having wards one against another, to minister in the house of the LORD.
13 And they cast lots, as well the small as the great, according to the house of their fathers, for every gate. {as well...: or, as well for the small as for the great}
14 And the lot eastward fell to Shelemiah. Then for Zechariah his son, a wise counsellor, they cast lots; and his lot came out northward. {Shelemiah: also called Meshelemiah}
15 To Obededom southward; and to his sons the house of Asuppim. {Asuppim: Heb. gatherings}
16 To Shuppim and Hosah the lot came forth westward, with the gate Shallecheth, by the causeway of the going up, ward against ward.
17 Eastward were six Levites, northward four a day, southward four a day, and toward Asuppim two and two.
18 At Parbar westward, four at the causeway, and two at Parbar.
19 These are the divisions of the porters among the sons of Kore, and among the sons of Merari.

HankD

 

[tinytim]

""Your analogies are not exactly correct about what you label as KJVO churches, besides, are you aware of the evils of proselytizing other church memebers, I believe the Lord calls it "beguiling"".

>>>>>Let me say that I don't proselytize anyone. But if someone comes to our church because they are disatisfied with their church, then are we to turn them away. Especially when their church teaches a false doctrine like KJVO.
As for the youth not being from a Church Family, I'll agree. We are a family oriented church and involve parents as much as possible in our youth programs. But at the same time we have an active bus ministry and we have quite a few troubled youth that come to our church through the bus ministry. We feel priveledged to have them, especially since some of their parents want nothing to do with church.

Most of these youths have scarcely darkened a church before, and some have even said that when they did go to other churches, they were looked down upon by the "church kids". Thank God we have a church that loves the youth and not just the ones from the "proper families"!!!

I'm sure there are examples of KJVO churches out there that have active youth groups. But none around here.

As for CCM, I don't care for the hard rock CCM, but our church does have a mixed music worship in which we do have praise and worship.
What's wrong with CCm that actually glorifies God?
Oh never mind, I can go to the music forum to read the answers. People that are KJVO usually hates change of any kind.

 

[Craigbythesea]

To pull out the Greek and yet fail to teach English is error. It's the "Greek" used that propagates any error, and that would be the only way anyone would believe the KJB is wrong and a eprson has been lied to about it's accuracy.

I agree that teaching our young people very good English is more important than helping them to learn Greek, but by studying the Greek tenses they will become much more aware of the the difference in English tenses and their pricise meaning. Many young people today do not recognize the difference between the English past tense and the English perfect past tense even though both of them are found in the New Testament in the KJV in hundreds of places and the meaning of the two tenses is very different.

It is true that some people use their knowledge of Greek to propagate error, but that error is much more apparent to young people who have at least a little knowledge of Greek. And studying Greek does not mean studying modern Greek texts that are different than the Greek text that the KJV was translated from. It means studying the language so that you can read what ever Greek text you want to and learn the truth for yourself rather than relying on what somebody else tells you.

Young people today are spending more and more time on the Net, and they are getting exposed to more and more lies. The more knowledgeable they have, the less they will be fooled by lies.

The KJV and the NASB New Testaments are both translated from Greek texts that are very similar to each other. I know this because I studied it for myself and made the following notes:

The New Testament Text

The primary Greek text used for this translation was the 23rd edition of Ebhard Nestle's Novum Testamentum Graece, commonly known as the Nestle-Aland text. This text removes the following verses found in the Textus Receptus and places them in the margin: Matt. 17:21; 18:11; 23:14; Mark 7:16; 9:44; 9:46; 11:26; 15:28; Luke 17:36; 23:17; John 5:3b-4; Acts 8:37; 15:34; 24:6b-8a; 28:29; and Romans 16:24. The New American Standard Bible, however, returns them to the text and brackets them (although the first edition placed most of them in the margin). Both the American Standard Version and the Revised Standard Version place them in the notes. Also, the Nestle-Aland text brackets Matt. 12:47 and the American Standard Version and the New American Standard Bible both retain it in the text with neither brackets nor a note. The Revised Standard Version removes this verse and places it in a note.
Mark 16:9-20 and John 7:53-8:11 are retained in the text being set off by brackets and are accompanied by notes. The Nestle-Aland text places these passages in double brackets indicating that they regard them as "later additions to the text, but which are retained because of their evident antiquity and their importance in the textual tradition." The American Standard Version retains them in the text, setting them off by a blank space in the text, and accompanies them with notes. The second edition of the Revised Standard Version New Testament retains them in the text but sets them off by a blank space in the text and accompanies them with notes.
Luke 22:19b-20 is retained in the text and is not bracketed but is accompanied by a note. Luke 24:51b is removed from the text and placed in a note (the second edition of the Revised Standard Version New Testament restored this passage to the text). Luke 22:43, 44 is retained in the text and accompanied by a note (the second edition of the RSV New Testament removes this passage from the text and places it in a note). A phrase in Luke 12:39 is removed from the text without a note (the second edition of the RSV New Testament removes the phrase from the text but places it in a note).
The "Johannine Comma" (1 John 5:7, 8) is relegated to a note in the New American Standard Bible. The American Standard Version and the Revised Standard Version omit it altogether.
The New American Standard Bible, in numerous places, departs from the textual choices followed by the American Standard Version and reverts to the textual choices followed by the King James Version. These departures are usually in agreement with the Nestle-Aland text. In a few cases they are not.

The Greek texts of the KJV and the NASB are almost the same, and none of the differences are of any doctrinal consequence. You don’t have to be afraid of the NASB. Check it out for yourself. Read it and see if it really changes any doctrines. Don’t believe what people tell you, and that includes me; check it out for yourself.

 

[HankD]

BTW and FYI,

My favorite KJB verse for uniqueness:

KJV Revelation 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

But alas, someone beat them to it though:

The Douay Rheims:

DR Revelation 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the noise of many waters and as the voice of great thunder. And the voice which I heard was as the voice of harpers, harping on their harps.

All you KJVO know that the KJV is word-for-word the Douay-Rheims in about 75 percent of the text don't you?

Guess what? The Douay-Rheims NT was published in 1582.

Yes, believe it or not there is a Douay-Rheims Only group:

Sometimes the question is raised: Why translate from a translation (the Latin Vulgate) rather than from the original Greek and Hebrew? This question was also raised in the 16th century when the Douay-Rheims translators (Fr. Gregory Martin and his assistants) first published the Rheims New Testament. They gave ten reasons, ending up by stating that the Latin Vulgate "is not only better then al other Latin translations, but then the Greek text itself, in those places where they disagree." (Preface to the Rheims New Testament, 1582). They state that the Vulgate is "more pure then the Hebrew or Greek now extant" and that "the same Latin hath bene barre better conserved from corruption." (Preface to the Douay Old Testament, 1609).

"As Pope Pius XII stated in his 1943 encyclical letter Divino Afflante Spiritu, this means the Vulgate is "free from any error whatsoever in matters of faith and morals." And the Douay-Rheims bible is a faithful, word-for-word translation of the Latin Vulgate Bible of St. Jerome."

Available on-line at : http://www.marianland.com/bible20.html .


HankD

[ January 26, 2004, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

[tinytim]

QS, there is a problem with the faithbaptistcamp link you gave us. When I clicked on it it went nowhere. But I did a little researching and found:
www.faithbaptistcamp.org
Is this the right place? If it is, where are the youth? It is only about a Camp Meeting.
Maybe I looked in the wrong place. But I found nothing that even mentioned youth!

As for the other, It looks like a great church, but beside pictures on the right side of the screen of little kids (not teens, except a couple) there was no links to their youth ministry.

When I look at a church's website, I like to search out the youth's page. It's a real indicator of what the church stands for!
I guess it's the youth pastor in me

Which reminds me I need to do something with our church's youth page.

 

[Precepts]

Sorry about the link, this is the one I meant to give:

http://www.churchchoirmusic.com/

 

[tinytim]

Originally posted by QuickeningSpirit:
Sorry about the link, this is the one I meant to give:

http://www.churchchoirmusic.com/

Thanks, they sound awesome!! I'd love to hear them in person, that music brings back memories!

 

[Dr. Bob]

The AV1611 translators stated that they were NOT making a new translation. Just revising older ones.

The DRonly thought, though, is hilarious. Thanks for sharing that the "fringe" is not just among fundamentalists!

Dr. Bob
LatinVulgate Only

Omnis scriptura divinitus inspirata et utilis ad docendum ad arguendum ad corrigendum ad erudiendum in iustitia ut perfectus sit homo Dei ad omne opus bonum instructus

 

[Singleman]

Are you sure you guys are adults, much less Christians? I would expect to see such egotistical, boastful, sarcastic, self-promoting behavior in secular websites that cater mostly to young people who think it's cool to put down other posters, but on a Baptist forum I would expect otherwise. I'm sure the response will be for me to go away and not frequent this board if I'm so offended. The fact is I only drop in once a week or so to see if anything has changed. It never does, and apparently never will. Even an immature, highly-flawed believer such as myself can see that the attitudes exhibited here are an embarrassment.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Omnis Scriptura divinitus inspirata est ac utilis ad doctrinam, ad redargutionem, ad correctionem, ad institutionem, qua est in justitia.

(2Tim. 3:16)

Amen!

 

[Craigbythesea]

Omnis scriptura divinitus inspirata et utilis ad docendum ad arguendum ad corrigendum ad erudiendum in iustitia ut perfectus sit homo Dei ad omne opus bonum instructus. 2 Tim. 3:16,17 Jerome's Latin Vulgate (405 A.D.)

All Scripture is giuen by inspiration of God, & is profitable for doctrine, for reproofe, for correction, for instrution in righteousnesse: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished vnto all good workes. 2 Tim 3:16,17 King James Version (1611 A.D.)

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. 2 Tim. 3:16,17 New American Standard Bible (1995 A. D.)

 

[Precepts]

OK, whip out your 135 IQ , Strong’s and your 1828 dictionary and please tell me what this passage is saying (particularly the last 4 verses)!

Looks quite obvious this is the calling to those to be the porters, or lookouts on the wall, being called by every tribe and decided by lots. Also laborers to take care of the work necessary to maintain the walled city, uh Jerusalem I presume.

In verse 17 it is assumed the levites maintained their "eastward" attention, yet placed in different positions in their directional locations.

Close? And that was only by reading your verses.

Your point?

 

[Precepts]

"Throughly furnished": 1a) to furnish perfectly 1822 exartizw exartizo ex-ar-tid’-zo

from 1537 and a derivative of 739; TDNT-1:475,80; v

AV-accomplish + 1096 1, thoroughly furnish 1; 2

1) to complete, finish
1a) to furnish perfectly
1b) to finish, accomplish, (as it were, to render the days complete)

Adequate: AD'EQUATE, a. Equal; proportionate; correspondent to; fully sufficient; as, means adequate to the object; we have no adequate ideas of infinite power.

Adequate ideas, are such as exactly represent their object.

AD'EQUATE, v.t. To resemble exactly. [Not used.]

Though adequate indictaes equality to the tasks of the man of God, there is a slight indication of only a resemblance and not actual. I could relate this to teachers of the Word compared to preachers: teachers teach, but the men of God in this passage PREACH!

Also the word "furnished" gives the feel of some one other than men instructing the man of God. Throughly is indicative of inside furnishing and not just outward. The distinction in a real God called preacher, that one in which God has prepared inwardly, that which man may have adequate means to form a man by his degrees, but lacking the inward "voice" to determine truth/ the Spirit.

A natural man may appear adequate, but the throughly furnished man has experience. We could relate that to the difference of a novice not prepared to be a bishop.

"135" at work here, but over-ridden by the Spirit, of course found in the KJB!

 

[HankD]

Even an immature, highly-flawed believer such as myself can see that the attitudes exhibited here are an embarrassment.

welcome to the club

HankD