ACLU

Indeed. And I think your comment is completely worthless except for showing how a certain type of person will invent ideas, and then convince himself of them, in order to preserve his world-view.

 

What Idea have we invented? What "Idea" is not commonly held by the majority of Christians? The ACLU is an issue driven organization. That is plan fact. And please, unless you want the mods to close the thread down, stop the personal attacks.

 

I am very sorry I called your earlier post worthless speculation. It was completely unwarranted. In fact, you were probably right when you said they will only take a case that serves their own interest.
I think their history shows that religious freedom (for all theists and atheists) is one of those interests; do you have any evidence to convince me otherwise or is it simply your personal conviction that they are out to get Christians?

 

I did not say they were out to get Christians. But I do believe the totality of there agenda is harmful to Christianity and our nation. For instance, while they have represented some Christians in their free speech cases, the over all effect of their free speech legacy is in protecting things like the right of extreme pornography and folks access to it. And in my opinion, there well known efforts at making sure all religious related art is removed from every corner of the public square is destructive of who we are as a nation. Also, wasn't the founder a well known communist sympathizer. I think communism is the antithesis of free speech and democracy.

But I think overall my comments were towards the ends that I don't think the few Christian cases they have represented constitute a protection of Christianity.

 

I'm not a member of the ACLU...but I would dare say that if the government tried to tell churches what they could teach/preach on Sundays...that I would be real glad the ACLU was around.

 

Actually, that's true. The ACLU wouldn't take the case of my friend's apartment being ransacked by the FBI without a warrent because they already were working on a test case. When you think about it, they can't take every case that comes to them in the entire U.S. They don't have the resources.

Also, the U.S. Supreme Court operates in exactly the same way. They take cases that are representative of important legal issues in the country (plus cases about voter fraud in the 2000 and 2004 elections of course).

 

ACLU is supposed to defend disreputable people like communists and nazis.

The real bad guys, the ones we need to keep in check, always try out their power grabs on unpopular people first.

Only later do they get around to abusing the rest of us.

The ACLU is a great drag on people who would take our freedoms. Understandably, such people hate the ACLU.

That tells me that they are doing their job.

 

It seems like you're saying "they might defend Christians but really all they do is defend antichristian rights.
Anyway, how does having option to view pornography subvert Christianity?

The freedoms they defend are much more important of who we are as a nation.

Fallacy. The US's founding fathers were slaveowners so the US must be anti-freedom!

They exist to protect freedom, not Christianity.

Now, what about your comment that they don't care about the Christians they defended? Do you have anything to defend that most worthy opinion?

 

Well I guess technically, defending pornography does not do direct harm to Christianity but to people and society. However, trying to remove every vestige of christian art and expression from the public square hurts the Churches influence in society and therefor hurts the Church.

I did not say they don't care about the folks they defend. I said it is not about the defendant, it is about the issue that the defendants case allows them to take to court.

They are issue driven, not defendant driven. And the issues they tend to promote or at least the way they go about it is antithetical to the judo-christian ethic upon which our nation was based.

I think we are all familiar enough with the activities of the ACLU to have an intelligent conversation, without having to write a paper on it. But if you make me, I am confident that I can find plenty of cases where they represent unsundry cases that are harmful to the nation and morality. They could defend free speech without, defending folks "right" to view child pornography and such. It seems they are fighting for an "absolute right" of free speech, which I don't think is backed up by the constitution.

 

Again you amaze me with your one-sided stance.

Copied from the ACLU website:

The mission of the ACLU is to preserve all of these protections and guarantees:
</font>

• Your First Amendment rights-freedom of speech, association and assembly. Freedom of the press, and freedom of religion supported by the strict separation of church and state.</font>

</font>

• Your right to equal protection under the law - equal treatment regardless of race, sex, religion or national origin.</font>

</font>

• Your right to due process - fair treatment by the government whenever the loss of your liberty or property is at stake.</font>

</font>

• Your right to privacy - freedom from unwarranted government intrusion into your personal and private affairs.</font>

You see, they defend our rights. Our being ALL Americans! Not just some, not just the "good" people, but ALL our rights.

Can't you see that if they didn't defend the good and bad things, than no one would? What happens when we get rid of ALL porn? The world would be a better place... Then.. wait.. it's coming...

Then, Christian's are NOT a majority, and the "Man" wants to take away our right to worship and practice our religion... Who would you like to defend you?

IN this country, which isn't a Christian country, you have to give and take. We give them the things that "freedom" means to them, and we take the things that "freedom" means to us.

During this process, Yes, there will and is very very bad things out there, but just think, if we do what Christ has asked us to do, Witness, and spread his word, then those things would be less and less automatically because a Christian doesn't partake of those things. THAT is how we fight the fight to win.

Practice what Jesus taughts us, and the things that we think we bad will be bad things to those to convert to Christ. AS far as the rest of them, Pray for them, and continue to spread his Word, but they have to make up their own mind.

I for one like having the ACLU around. Not that I agree with everything they defend, but if I ever need defending, I would want an organization like them to be there to help.

Open your minds to Christ, and the bad ways of the world will not be a problem. Witness to people. Teach them. Win them over to Chirst.

The World will never let go of it's worldliness&lt;sp&gt;, so why fight it. Fight the good fight and win people to Chirst, and let the ACLU and other like groups be there for you when Christians aren't a majority.

Jamie

 

I went and read the ACLU web site, and they are into A LOT of issues, not just free speech etc. It looks to me like they have become nothing more than an arm of the liberal wing of the Democratic Party. I can't see them as dispassionate, objective defenders of my constitutional rights. They clearly have an Ideology to enforce, and it seems to be right down the line with liberal Democratic goals.

As such, I have no confidence that the ACLU will be their for me when we are not the Majority.

 

Bunyon,

I will give you a Thanks for at least being open enough to go to their site and look it over. Someone people on this board, and other places I am sure, wouldn't even have done that much.

While I disagree with you on the confidence that they would be in my corner if my constitutional rights were being trampled.

AS far as the comments about them being inline with the Democratic party, I will say this and this isn't meant to cause a great debate, because it's already been hashed out left and right, so I won't debate it myself, but maybe they are inline with the Democratic party because the Democratic party does a better job at defending ALL people's right more so than the Republican party? Again, I know people will disagree with this statement, that is known in other threads, so I won't debate it here in the ACLU thread. Just a though to your comment.

Thanks again for at least taking the time to read, and then disagree, vers just out right disagreeing.

Jamie

 

By advocating issues of freedom they show concern for the defendant and others in their situation. Or are you upset about a lack of personal attachment to their clients?

 

So you see the liberal wing of the Democratic Party as the defenders of civil rights and liberties? Perhaps they are.

Why not? They defend the unpopulars' rights and liberties.

 

Yea, I guess name calling is a easy shot...

Jamie

 

"Why not? They defend the unpopulars' rights and liberties."--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just a hunch, but I think we will get a chance to find out in our lifetime, Daisy. When we are in Jail together for our faith our world view will no longer be different. Things will become pretty clear, pretty quick.

"By advocating issues of freedom they show concern for the defendant and others in their situation. Or are you upset about a lack of personal attachment to their clients? "
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No, not uspset, that is just the nature of it. The same would be true of the ACLJ.