37818
Well-Known Member
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Acts 10 - Cornelius - Question - Continued
- Thread starter LaGrange
- Start date
37818
Well-Known Member
We are you?
37818
Well-Known Member
Then you were Baptized twice and that is against scripture (Eph 4:5).
37818
Well-Known Member
You seem to be dense here about this.
There are three immersions per Luke 316-17.
Everyone is to be immersed.
In the Holy Spirit, 1 John 5:10, the witness in oneself.
Or.
The lake of fire, Revelation 21:8.
The one immersion of Ephesians 4:5 per Matthew 28:19.
My understanding in this.
I’m not denying that we are to be immersed in the Holy Ghost. I am saying that immersion in the Holy Ghost happens simultaneously with Baptism with Water and the Invoking the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. I’ve repeated this many times. You are saying you are immersed in the Holy Ghost but THEN, separately, are baptized in water = 2 Baptisms.
37818
Well-Known Member
You should know better. Cornelius and his household received the immersion of the Holy Spirit without the water immersion. And we presume was water immersed later.
37818,
All I can say is go back and read my long post (post #2 and #3) where I go verse by verse on Acts 10. That’s the name of this thread. You think I didn’t talk about that? You didn’t read it. Read it and we’ll discuss it.
37818
Well-Known Member
". . . And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. . . ."
We can presume Peter immersed them.
That was done after ". . . To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. . . ." And they did receive their forgiveness prior to their instruction to be immersed.
Did you read my posts? Here’s a question: At what point was Cornelius regenerated?
Ok. I think you are saying it was in Acts 10:44-46. Did you read what I said about that?
37818
Well-Known Member
When ". . . the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. . . ." -- Acts of the Apostles 10:43-44.
37818
Well-Known Member
Correct.
Cornelius was an unusual case. As my post #1 and the first half of post #2 says, he could have been saved before being baptized, however, that’s not my view. I know the reason why you picked this place (Acts 10:44-46). This is different from our view on how Cornelius could have been saved. You believe you are saved by the preaching of the (heard) Word alone. Many that posted on the first thread couldn’t say when Cornelius was justified. They were guessing. Some said he was justified before Acts 10. I understand that.
Anyway, I hope you don’t mind but I would like to ask you another question before we get into that. I’ve been wanting to ask this question and this seems just as good a time as any to ask it. Thanks again for discussing this with me:
When someone hears the word preached and comes to Christ:
What role did the preacher play in this?
Was the preacher the cause of grace? (In other words, did the grace come solely from the preacher?)
You can combine these two in one answer of you want.
37818
Well-Known Member
1 Corinthians 3:7, ". . . So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. . . ." Compare and note John 17:17, Romans 10:17 and Ephesians 1:12-14 ". . . Christ . . . In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, . . ."
I agree. I was sure you would answer it that way. I’ll answer you in the morning. Thanks 37818!
You didn’t say what the role of the preacher was in someone’s conversion but I think you will understand what I am saying here. God used something physical (the Preacher) as an “instrument” to bring about something Spiritual. When a person comes to Christ through the preached Word, the preacher is the “instrumental cause” of the grace of conversion. The grace comes from God but it was through the “Instrument” of the preacher. This is exactly what Baptism is. In general, this is the definition of a sacrament. The definition of a sacrament: “A sacrament is an outward sign, instituted by Christ, that gives grace.” That’s the definition from the Baltimore Catechism. In scripture most of the time it translates as a “mystery” or “Secret”. I would interpret it as “hidden” but strongs interprets it as “silent” (strongs G3466). That doesn’t mean that when the word “mystery” or “secret” is used in scripture that it refers to a sacrament. They used the word to define a new reality that Christ instituted. One example that stands out to me is Eph 5:32 which refers to the Sacrament of Matrimony:
“This is a great sacrament: but I speak in Christ and in the church.” (DRV)
“This is a great mystery, and I mean in reference to Christ and the church.” (KJV)
St. Jerome translated it as “Sacramentum” in the fourth century in the Vulgate.
Physical things are used as “Instruments” to bring about Spiritual things (grace)
If you think about it, when you pray you are using something physical (yourself) to bring about a spiritual result (grace). You are the “instrumental cause” of the the grace that comes from your prayers. This is basically the definition of a sacrament. It is where the physical and the spiritual come together. The Catholic Church narrows the definition of a sacrament to include only those physical things used to produce spiritual results that Christ instituted. The term “mystery” has a wider use of the physical and spiritual coming together.
You didn’t comment on this in #5 (post #3) so here it is:
(5) Acts 10:44-46 - The Holy Ghost fell on Cornelius and his friends and they began speaking in Tongues - speaking in Tongues doesn’t mean you are saved. Unless you are Pentecostal, I think we would all agree with that. It is a Gift for the benefit of others. In this case it was a benefit to Peter as another sign from God that he was to Baptize gentiles into the church. Cornelius is NOT saved at this point.
I’ll let you comment on this first.
By the way, I am going to post through Wednesday morning and then break until after the new year.