Acts 13:48

Hello JohnP

You can of course look up any grammar book which will tell what a participle is. I don't see what your point is here

ALL the Scripture references that you give DO NOT teach predestination. There is not a single Scripture that says that God from eternity past chose some to Salvation. If the Calvinistc concept of Salvation is Biblical, then what of the fact that "God commands everyone everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30)? How can He do so, is the Atonement of Jesus did not make any "provision" for them? It is accepted by all Calvinists as far as I am aware, that the offer of the Gospel is to be made to "everyone without exception" (as Mark 16:15 teaches). What is the Gospel, if it is not the Good News that Jesus Christ dies that everyone can go to heaven, if they were to believe? Surely you are not saying that the Gospel consists of telling the world that people will be going to hell forever? Is this offer of the Gospel to one and all a genuine one? If it is, then it can only be because Jesus Christ as provided the Atonement for the whole world, otherwise we are guilty of making God to be not sincere with this offer!I think that Calvinism has distorted the Gospel by placing human "linits" to what God intended.

Let me quote from a respected Calvinistc Theologian, Dr R L Dabney:" In John 3:16, make 'the world' which Christ loved, to mean 'the elect world'; and we reach the absurdity that some of the elect may not believe, and perish. In 2 Cor.v.15, if we make the all for whom Christ died , mean only all who live unto Him, i.e. the elect - it would seem to be implied that of those elect for whom Christ died only a part will live to Christ. In 1 Jno.ii.2, it is at least doubtful whether the express phrase, 'whole world' can be restrained to the world of elect as including other than Jews. For it is indisputable, that the Apostle extends the propitiation of Christ beyond those whom he speaks os as 'we' in verse first.The interpretation described obviously proceeds on the assumption that these are only Jewish believers. Can this be substantiated? Is this catholic epistle addressed only to Jews? This is more than doubtful. It would seem then, that the Apostle's scope is, to console and encourage sinning believers with the thought, that since Christ made expiation for every man, there is no danger that He will not be found a propitiation for them who, having already believed, now sincerely turn to Him from recent sins" (Systematic Theology, page 525)

Here it is very clear to this leading figure in Calvinistic theology, that certain texts that are being used by Calvinists to "prove" their doctrine of a "Limited Atonement", really cannot be used in all honsety! Further, Dabney hare says that "Christ made expiation for every man", and that He was the "propitiation" for every man as well. How then can it be said that Christ only died for the elect?

I am fully aware that Dabney elsewhere does teach a "Limited Atonement", but, like many Calvinists that I have read, they are not consistent in what they believe!

 

Hello aa0310.

Yea! Very helpful I'm sure.
1 : a word having the characteristics of both verb and adjective;
What's a verb then? Just letting you know there are dummies here.

I don't know about Dabney. I hear his name mentioned here and there and others. Dabney was a man? Prone as we all are to error.
I have skimmed what you have said Dabney said. I will go over it again more slowly later but for now the quote above is a bit odd to me.
If Christ made expiation for every man then every man has been forgiven his sins. Universalism? Your not into that are you? I'm sure Dabney was not was he?

Eph 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
You do surprise me.

Obedience is demanded. All men are duty bound to love the Lord God with all their being.

Who are you to talk back to God? One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? RO 9:19-21.
The noble can be found in the appointing of the Royal Priesthood by the Lord God as He has always done. King Saul thought he could appoint himself Priest when he went and made sacrifices to the Lord. What happened to him is a lesson for all Arminians. He went through that for you lot for you lot to learn. But you will not learn unless the Lord has compassion on you. Only the Sovereign God can appoint Priests.
What do you say?

The offer is to be made to everyone. The offer is to 'whosoever believes' and that is the offer. Whosoever.

If Christ died that everyone can go to heaven then He failed cause not everybody gets to go do they? Was it a gamble He took? Did Jesus say, "I hope someone believes otherwise I went through a lot of pain for nothing?"
God so loved the world that He sent His Son to die for it. Then He did not tell many many people that Jesus died for their sins so they could be about saving themselves and so escape the Hell that they will go to with their sins washed clean by any chance?

The good news is about the truth and light not about Sweet Jesus. He is The Rock and He tells us to tell everyone without exception that if they do not believe in the One God sent they will go to Hell. Jesus speaks more about Hell than anyone else.
The whole counsel of God.
Is this offer of the Gospel to one and all a genuine one?
What do you offer? The offer on offer is to whosoever believes that Jesus Christ died for their sins are the beloved of God Almighty and loved with an everlasting love.
If you offer that Christ died for everyone you are in serious error. Leave predestination out and you have no good news.
My Father tells me to tell people that it is not their decision to make. The gospel is a call from the Shepherd to His sheep. The gospel is a message given out to many that they are destined for Hell without reprieve or relief and under torture forever not for not believing Jesus died for them but because they are sinners unforgiven. Not for not believing Jesus died for them because He did not but because their sins are not forgiven.

The noble, the chosen, the predestined, can be found in the appointing of the Royal Priesthood by the Lord God as He has always done. King Saul thought he could appoint himself Priest when he went and made sacrifices to the Lord. What happened to him is a lesson for all Arminians. Only the Sovereign God can appoint Priests. Self-appointed priests are selfrighteous sinners.
What do you say? It sinks you don't it?

johnp.

 

Hi Johnp

1 Without sounding rude, if you don't know what a verb is, then I think that you ought to consider taking grammar/English lessions!

2. My point in mentioning Robert Dabney, is the fact that even though he was a strong Calvinist, yet he was here being honest and saying quite rightly, that there are certain verses that are used by Calvinists that are "meant" to teach Limited Atonement, when clearly they do not. The fact that Christ made expiation for every man does NOT teach that all are forgiven without repenting, nor that all will be saved in the end, Universalism. Now, it is quite clear from, for example, 1 Timothy 4:10, where we read, "God Who is the Saviour of all men, especially of those who believe". Here there are two classes referred to, "all men", which is mankind as every single person; and "those who believe", the believers in the Gospel, and thus the saved, who are from the "all men". We read in Romans 3:25, that "God hath set forth (Greek, "offered") to be a propitiation through faith in His (Jesus') blood...that He might be just and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus"(verse 26). Christ has completed His work of making Atonement for all mankind, and as we have seen from the passage in Romans, God has "offered" salvation to all who will believe, that is, accept this offer. This is exactly like a doctor who has the only cure for a disease, and has said that it is freely available to everyone, but they have to go to him to obtain this cure. Now, just because some don't care about this cure, and don't go to the doctor, and they were to die, does not make the doctor a failure! So with the Lord, just because many will not believe, but rather choose to reject the free offer of the Gospel, does NOT mean as some teach, that Christ failed in any way!

3. You quote Ephesians 1.4, and suppose that it teaches predestination to eternal life? But, if you were to read the passage, it says no such thing. "For He chose us in Him before the foundadtion of the world". Yes, for what? It goes on to tell us so, "in order that (so the Greek) we should be holy and without blame before Him in love". God has determined that all who come to Christ, should live holy and blameless lives. Nothing here to say that we were saved before the foundation of the world! The next verse says that we are thus "predestinated as unto the adoption as children by Jesus Christ". Because of our being "born-again", we are "adopted" into the family of God. It is this that God has "predestinated" to take place. Again, does not say salvation!

4.You, like all the Calvinists that I meet, misquote Romans 9 about the Potter. Again if you were to read carefully, you will see what is said here. Like that of Jacob and Easu, it is NOT talking about salvation, but rather "it was said unto her, the elder shall SERVE the younger" (Romans 9:12). Likewise the Potter has right to make whatever he choses with the lump of clay. To make from the same lump a vessel to honour, and another to dishonour. Noting about salvation for the one and not for the other spoken off here!. Further, it goes on to say in verse 22, that “God, willing to show His warth, and to make His power known, bore in much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted for destruction” Why does God bare with much longsuffering these vessels who are fitted for destruction? It can only be because He is willing that NONE should perish! Otherwise why does He not simply destroy them?

5. You say, “The offer is to be made to everyone. The offer is to 'whosoever believes' and that is the offer. Whosoever”. Are you here saying that the offer of the Gospel is only made to those who believe? This is complete nonsense, as it is very clear from Scripture, that “whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely” (Revelation 22:17), and, “everyone whoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord, shall be saved” (Acts 2:21. Greek text). Read also the words of Jesus Himself, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him” (John 3:36). The “believing” is placed upon the individual, and not something that has been predetermined by God for us to do! Surely a person cannot be sent to hell because he COULD NOT believe, but, rather, that he WOULD NOT believe!

6. You also say: “If Christ died that everyone can go to heaven then He failed cause not everybody gets to go do they?” Do you read what John 3:16 says, “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whosoever believes on Him should not perish, but have eternal life”? To make “the world” to mean “the elect” is wishful thinking! If this were true, then why go on to say, “whosoever” of the elect believes? Surely ALL the elect, since they are elect, WILL believe? Why mention “perish”, utterly lost, in reference to “the elect”? Calvinism plays with Scripture, making it say things that it clearly does NOT! If God does “So love the world”, as in the entire human race, then surely His plan of Salvation extends to the whole human race as well?

 

Hello aa0310.

It's not rude it's a good suggestion. I tried that when I was forty. When asked why I joined the college I told them that I wanted to know English and where to put all those commas and full stops. They told me not to bother with that stuff as it was not important! Can you believe that? I got the O level I went for but learnt nothing. Seems that I do all right without it but I'd like to know the rules so I can break them better.
I don't want to go into the Greek but trust God has given me what I need in English, I wanted you to know that and the reason. It will save time.

The fact that Christ made expiation for every man does NOT teach that all are forgiven without repenting, nor that all will be saved in the end, Universalism.
But that is the meaning of expiation. [the act of making atonement : the extinguishing of guilt by suffering or penalty] That Christ died for sins. If He died for sins then the punishment has been visited on Him for those sins. Is this not so? If He expiated the sins for all then the punishment for all has been paid. fait accompli. Repentance is unnecessary because the sins have been paid for. Can a man who has had his sins paid for have more to pay?
In John 3:16, make 'the world' which Christ loved, to mean 'the elect world'
JN 3:16 "For God so loved the [elect] that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
JN 3:16 "For God so loved the the Gentile as well as the Jew that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
That is the meaning of 'world' in this verse.
If Dabney had come across people using this verse as a verse to support election then he is right in bringing that 'elect' rendering to their attention. I myself have not heard anyone use it as such.
That is the meaning of 'world' in this verse. It cannot mean the whole of humanity, this is your belief? It cannot mean the whole of mankind because then you get into trouble. Why did Jesus die for the sins of all men when He did not tell many of them what He had done? This question is a death knell for 'world' meaning all mankind. You are going to run into Eli as well!
Eli's house was not atoned for. 1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' " Therefore Jesus did not die for Eli's house and you must submit to Limited Atonement!
Expiation is the act of making atonement : the extinguishing of guilt by suffering or penalty. Expiation means nothing else does it?
Now, it is quite clear from, for example, 1 Timothy 4:10, where we read, "God Who is the Saviour of all men, especially of those who believe". Here there are two classes referred to, "all men", which is mankind as every single person; and "those who believe", the believers in the Gospel, and thus the saved, who are from the "all men".
You must restrict your 'all men' must you not because of Eli? Jesus cannot be the Saviour of all men can He when Eli's house was not included in the sacrifice? Limit your atonement. You have no choice have you?
Christ has completed His work of making Atonement for all mankind, and as we have seen from the passage in Romans, God has "offered" salvation to all who will believe, that is, accept this offer. This is exactly like a doctor who has the only cure for a disease, and has said that it is freely available to everyone, but they have to go to him to obtain this cure. Now, just because some don't care about this cure, and don't go to the doctor, and they were to die, does not make the doctor a failure! So with the Lord, just because many will not believe, but rather choose to reject the free offer of the Gospel, does NOT mean as some teach, that Christ failed in any way!
No it is not like a doctor with a cure at all. It is a prosecutor who has prosecuted another in the place of sinners. It is a legal not a medical problem is that not so?
Does not matter if a person goes to receive it or not the deal was done by God with God for the forgiveness of sins. He either accomplished that or He did not. Can a man who has had his sins paid for have more to pay?
Was there a sin Jesus failed to pay for?

You quote Ephesians 1.4, and suppose that it teaches predestination to eternal life?
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--
I think the thing that gives it away is that we were chosen in Him before the creation of the world. I think predestinate also gives this passage an air of predetermination on the point of predestination. I fail to see your confusion over it. It is plain and simple like me.
God has determined that all who come to Christ, should live holy and blameless lives.
That is not the meaning of the text. To be holy and blameless means that as far as God is concerned all His people are covered by the righteousness of Christ. We are sinners and incapable of being blameless except that Jesus took our blame.
1 Cor 1:30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
Nothing here to say that we were saved before the foundation of the world!
Who said we were saved before we were created?
The next verse says that we are thus "predestinated as unto the adoption as children by Jesus Christ". Because of our being "born-again", we are "adopted" into the family of God. It is this that God has "predestinated" to take place. Again, does not say salvation!

You, like all the Calvinists that I meet, misquote Romans 9 about the Potter.
Nice to see I'm orthodox I must say.
Again if you were to read carefully...

It can only be because He is willing that NONE should perish! Otherwise why does He not simply destroy them?
To cut a long story short that passage is saying that God puts up with these reprobates because He is waiting for the rest of the Church to be born. When the rest of the chosen have been saved then He will destroy those ones that He did not choose.
In His time not yours.
Romans nine is about the Sovereignity of God in the way He treats us. He does what He likes.

Are you here saying that the offer of the Gospel is only made to those who believe?
You do not need to offer the gospel to any who believe you need to teach them. The offer is made to whosoever believes. Only those chosen before the creation of the world will accept. John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."
To the others He says, "but you do not believe because you are not my sheep." Only the chosen can believe the rest are going to Hell.
Are you here saying that the offer of the Gospel is only made to those who believe? This is complete nonsense... I agree with you.
...as it is very clear from Scripture, that “whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely” (Revelation 22:17), and, “everyone whoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord, shall be saved” (Acts 2:21. Greek text).
The whosoevers as I said.
The “believing” is placed upon the individual, and not something that has been predetermined by God for us to do! Surely a person cannot be sent to hell because he COULD NOT believe, but, rather, that he WOULD NOT believe!
Romans 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
I'm afraid it is cannot.

To make “the world” to mean “the elect” is wishful thinking! If this were true, then why go on to say, “whosoever” of the elect believes? Surely ALL the elect, since they are elect, WILL believe? Why mention “perish”, utterly lost, in reference to “the elect”? Calvinism plays with Scripture, making it say things that it clearly does NOT! If God does “So love the world”, as in the entire human race, then surely His plan of Salvation extends to the whole human race as well?
You brought to me a thing that some bloke called Dabney said and then you lay that at my feet as if that is what I believe!
What do you mean by putting words into my mouth? If you have a moment you might like to find out what I believe before you tell me I am wrong if you don't mind old chap.
“So love the world”, as in the entire human race, then surely His plan of Salvation extends to the whole human race as well?
You must limit this love. You must learn what love is. Eli limits the atonement.

Would you like to comment on my little revelation below?
The noble, the chosen, the predestined, can be found in the appointing of the Royal Priesthood by the Lord God as He has always done. King Saul thought he could appoint himself Priest when he went and made sacrifices to the Lord. What happened to him is a lesson for all Arminians. Only the Sovereign God can appoint Priests. Self-appointed priests are selfrighteous sinners.
What do you say? It sinks you don't it?

johnp.

 

It's not rude it's a good suggestion. I tried that when I was forty. When asked why I joined the college I told them that I wanted to know English and where to put all those commas and full stops. They told me not to bother with that stuff as it was not important! Can you believe that? I got the O level I went for but learnt nothing. Seems that I do all right without it but I'd like to know the rules so I can break them better.
I don't want to go into the Greek but trust God has given me what I need in English, I wanted you to know that and the reason. It will save time.

The fact that Christ made expiation for every man does NOT teach that all are forgiven without repenting, nor that all will be saved in the end, Universalism.
But that is the meaning of expiation. [the act of making atonement : the extinguishing of guilt by suffering or penalty] That Christ died for sins. If He died for sins then the punishment has been visited on Him for those sins. Is this not so? If He expiated the sins for all then the punishment for all has been paid. fait accompli. Repentance is unnecessary because the sins have been paid for. Can a man who has had his sins paid for have more to pay?
In John 3:16, make 'the world' which Christ loved, to mean 'the elect world'
JN 3:16 "For God so loved the [elect] that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
JN 3:16 "For God so loved the the Gentile as well as the Jew that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
That is the meaning of 'world' in this verse.
If Dabney had come across people using this verse as a verse to support election then he is right in bringing that 'elect' rendering to their attention. I myself have not heard anyone use it as such.
That is the meaning of 'world' in this verse. It cannot mean the whole of humanity, this is your belief? It cannot mean the whole of mankind because then you get into trouble. Why did Jesus die for the sins of all men when He did not tell many of them what He had done? This question is a death knell for 'world' meaning all mankind. You are going to run into Eli as well!
Eli's house was not atoned for. 1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' " Therefore Jesus did not die for Eli's house and you must submit to Limited Atonement!
Expiation is the act of making atonement : the extinguishing of guilt by suffering or penalty. Expiation means nothing else does it?
Now, it is quite clear from, for example, 1 Timothy 4:10, where we read, "God Who is the Saviour of all men, especially of those who believe". Here there are two classes referred to, "all men", which is mankind as every single person; and "those who believe", the believers in the Gospel, and thus the saved, who are from the "all men".
You must restrict your 'all men' must you not because of Eli? Jesus cannot be the Saviour of all men can He when Eli's house was not included in the sacrifice? Limit your atonement. You have no choice have you?
Christ has completed His work of making Atonement for all mankind, and as we have seen from the passage in Romans, God has "offered" salvation to all who will believe, that is, accept this offer. This is exactly like a doctor who has the only cure for a disease, and has said that it is freely available to everyone, but they have to go to him to obtain this cure. Now, just because some don't care about this cure, and don't go to the doctor, and they were to die, does not make the doctor a failure! So with the Lord, just because many will not believe, but rather choose to reject the free offer of the Gospel, does NOT mean as some teach, that Christ failed in any way!
No it is not like a doctor with a cure at all. It is a prosecutor who has prosecuted another in the place of sinners. It is a legal not a medical problem is that not so?
Does not matter if a person goes to receive it or not the deal was done by God with God for the forgiveness of sins. He either accomplished that or He did not. Can a man who has had his sins paid for have more to pay?
Was there a sin Jesus failed to pay for?

You quote Ephesians 1.4, and suppose that it teaches predestination to eternal life?
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--
I think the thing that gives it away is that we were chosen in Him before the creation of the world. I think predestinate also gives this passage an air of predetermination on the point of predestination. I fail to see your confusion over it. It is plain and simple like me.
God has determined that all who come to Christ, should live holy and blameless lives.
That is not the meaning of the text. To be holy and blameless means that as far as God is concerned all His people are covered by the righteousness of Christ. We are sinners and incapable of being blameless except that Jesus took our blame.
1 Cor 1:30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
Nothing here to say that we were saved before the foundation of the world!
Who said we were saved before we were created?
The next verse says that we are thus "predestinated as unto the adoption as children by Jesus Christ". Because of our being "born-again", we are "adopted" into the family of God. It is this that God has "predestinated" to take place. Again, does not say salvation!

You, like all the Calvinists that I meet, misquote Romans 9 about the Potter.
Nice to see I'm orthodox I must say.
Again if you were to read carefully...

It can only be because He is willing that NONE should perish! Otherwise why does He not simply destroy them?
To cut a long story short that passage is saying that God puts up with these reprobates because He is waiting for the rest of the Church to be born. When the rest of the chosen have been saved then He will destroy those ones that He did not choose.
In His time not yours.
Romans nine is about the Sovereignity of God in the way He treats us. He does what He likes.

Are you here saying that the offer of the Gospel is only made to those who believe?
You do not need to offer the gospel to any who believe you need to teach them. The offer is made to whosoever believes. Only those chosen before the creation of the world will accept. John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."
To the others He says, "but you do not believe because you are not my sheep." Only the chosen can believe the rest are going to Hell.
Are you here saying that the offer of the Gospel is only made to those who believe? This is complete nonsense... I agree with you.
...as it is very clear from Scripture, that “whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely” (Revelation 22:17), and, “everyone whoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord, shall be saved” (Acts 2:21. Greek text).
The whosoevers as I said.
The “believing” is placed upon the individual, and not something that has been predetermined by God for us to do! Surely a person cannot be sent to hell because he COULD NOT believe, but, rather, that he WOULD NOT believe!
Romans 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
I'm afraid it is cannot.

To make “the world” to mean “the elect” is wishful thinking! If this were true, then why go on to say, “whosoever” of the elect believes? Surely ALL the elect, since they are elect, WILL believe? Why mention “perish”, utterly lost, in reference to “the elect”? Calvinism plays with Scripture, making it say things that it clearly does NOT! If God does “So love the world”, as in the entire human race, then surely His plan of Salvation extends to the whole human race as well?
You brought to me a thing that some bloke called Dabney said and then you lay that at my feet as if that is what I believe!
What do you mean by putting words into my mouth? If you have a moment you might like to find out what I believe before you tell me I am wrong if you don't mind old chap.
“So love the world”, as in the entire human race, then surely His plan of Salvation extends to the whole human race as well?
You must limit this love. You must learn what love is. Eli limits the atonement.

Would you like to comment on my little revelation below?
The noble, the chosen, the predestined, can be found in the appointing of the Royal Priesthood by the Lord God as He has always done. King Saul thought he could appoint himself Priest when he went and made sacrifices to the Lord. What happened to him is a lesson for all Arminians. Only the Sovereign God can appoint Priests. Self-appointed priests are selfrighteous sinners.
What do you say? It sinks you don't it?

johnp. </font>[/QUOTE]Lets stick with John 3:16 for the present. If the word "world" does not mean "mankind", the "whole human race", then it makes no sense in this passage. In the next verse it goes on to say, "for God sent not His Son into the world (the Incarnation) to condemn the world (if not the human race, then what?), but that the world (mankind) through Him, might me saved"

It is clear that the meaning of "world" cannot be limited in any way, since the whole passage must be taken as having the same meaning for the world. Further, it does not say that the "world" will be saved, which would require the Greek to be in the "indicative mood"; but, "might be saved", which is in the subjunctive, conditional mood. The condition being on believing on Jesus as Saviour? Tell me, why are those who go to hell, not go to heaven? Is is not "because they believe not on Me" (John 16:9)? As Jesus taught. Just because someone "believes" in Jesus of their own free will, with the grace of God working in their heart, does NOT mean that they are "earning" their Salvation, as Calvinists teach!

 

aa0310.

which would require the Greek to be in the "indicative mood"; but, "might be saved", which is in the subjunctive, conditional mood. Great, I see you are a man that can be reasoned with.

Fine with me.

PS 147:19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.
RO 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...
This love of the world you speak of, where is it in the passages above for I find only that He loves Israel.

Deal with Eli please.

John 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
Faith is a work.

Does He work this work in all men's hearts?

johnp.

 

aa0310.

Where did Jesus teach about this god free will. I see no mention of free will being discussed by Jesus. Quite the opposite, "but you do not believe because you are not my sheep." John 10:26.

Would you like to comment on my little revelation below?
The noble, the chosen, the predestined, can be found in the appointing of the Royal Priesthood by the Lord God as He has always done. King Saul thought he could appoint himself Priest when he went and made sacrifices to the Lord. What happened to him is a lesson for all Arminians. Only the Sovereign God can appoint Priests. Self-appointed priests are selfrighteous sinners.

johnp.

 

Where did Jesus teach about this god free will. I see no mention of free will being discussed by Jesus. Quite the opposite, "but you do not believe because you are not my sheep." John 10:26.

Would you like to comment on my little revelation below?
The noble, the chosen, the predestined, can be found in the appointing of the Royal Priesthood by the Lord God as He has always done. King Saul thought he could appoint himself Priest when he went and made sacrifices to the Lord. What happened to him is a lesson for all Arminians. Only the Sovereign God can appoint Priests. Self-appointed priests are selfrighteous sinners.

johnp. </font>[/QUOTE]The Bible is very clear that Jesus taught free will in all men, and not only in some chosen few. If you care to read John 5:39-40

"You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."

The Greek here is better: "and you are not willing to come to me, in order that you might have eternal life"

To say that tey are "not willing" because they "can't will", is complete nonsense, and destroys the plain sense of the passage. Its exactly the same as we read in Acts 13:46, where Paul tells the Jews who were rejecting the Gospel: "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles". NOTE, it was they, and NOT God, who considered them unworthy of eternal life. In the Calvinistic scheme of things, surely we should find that God considered them not worthy, as they were not elect! But, praise God that it is not so!

 

Hello aa0310.

John 5:39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
...Jesus taught free will in all men, and not only in some chosen few...
I don't know where you get the idea that I believe any man has free will.
This verse just tells us that sinners refuse to go to Him. It says nothing about their ability to believe in Him except that Jesus shows us what the biblical wolves are like. Full of self-importance and selfrighteousness.

Then you have a problem don't you? Romans 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. The plain sense of scripture tells us the state men are in.

Are you worthy before God?

Would you like to comment on my little revelation below?
The noble, the chosen, the predestined, can be found in the appointing of the Royal Priesthood by the Lord God as. He has always appointed His Priests and Prophets. King Saul thought he could appoint himself Priest when he went and made sacrifices to the Lord. What happened to him is a lesson for all Arminians. Only the Sovereign God can appoint Priests. Self-appointed priests are selfrighteous sinners like King Saul.

johnp.

 

Why do you think God sent Christ? Of course we can't fully submit ourselves to God's law. That is our problem, we have all fallen short. Christ fulfilled the law on our behalf and allows us entrance into covenant by grace through faith. The law was never meant to save us, it was meant to point us to Christ.

To assume that because men can't submit to the law, which they were never intended to be able to submit to, must mean that we are unable to respond in faith to Christ's message sent for the purpose of reconciling us to God because of our inability to fulfill the law is just absurd.

 

Hello Skandelon.

God sent Christ to reveal His glory. What other reason could there be?

Romans 8:7 does not say we cannot 'fully' submit but that the law brings out in us rebellion full-blown.

He 'allows' us does He, is that of the ordaining 'allows' or the free will 'allows'.

Becoming Calvinist? I thought it is argued that God gives us free will. That if He tells us to obey the law then we must have the ability to obey the law or we make scripture nonsense. Yet here you are saying the same thing as we do?

You are in serious error for it was not Christ's message that reconciles but Christ's death that reconciles. Christ's death was a sacrifice of atonement. A sacrifice of atonement reconciles those who it is given for.

Mk 1:15 "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"
That is the law of God. To do as God commands and man is incapbable because the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
JN 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.

johnp.