Acts 13:48

[webdog]

The context dictates that the primary meaning of the word be used. I agree that we ought not interpret according to soteriology but isn't that exactly what you have done with this text?

Not at all. I compared Bible to Bible and used the context...not exactly what I see coming from your side.

If not then why must you insist that we translate the word arrange rather than the primary meaning?

You are allowing your soteriology to define what the primary meaning is. Is this the same primary meaning in Romans 13? You believe God hand selected Hitler to murder millions upon millions...or do you believe God allowed this to happen, and arranged the events in history including him coming to power for His purposes? Let's be consistent.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

The primary meaning of the word "tasso" is "appoint" or as the KJV puts it "ordain". That is why it is used in the English translations in this verse. It does no harm to the verse or what it teaching to use the word arrange because it still says that they believe because God first acted. But for you to use the word arrange in order to take the meaning away is stretching it quite a bit.

As to the Rom. 13 passage it is exactly as it says, the powers that be are ordained of God. He raises up kings and puts them down. He sets up governments and destroys them. That is the teaching of the Scriptures.

To answer your cavil about murder and abortions I would say exactly the same thing. All things are of God. Rom. 11:36, 1Cor. 8:6, Rev. 4:11

I agree Ron.

You are STILL failing to grasp what I am saying. I'm NOT petitioning to have the word removed...I'm petitioning to have YOUR understanding of the word removed.

Why won't you answer the question regarding how the "word" is used in Romans 13?

In regards to Romans 13, I didn't feel I needed to answer as Ron has already answered it. I agree with what he said above.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Not at all. I compared Bible to Bible and used the context...not exactly what I see coming from your side.
You are allowing your soteriology to define what the primary meaning is. Is this the same primary meaning in Romans 13? You believe God hand selected Hitler to murder millions upon millions...or do you believe God allowed this to happen, and arranged the events in history including him coming to power for His purposes? Let's be consistent.

I believe God hand selected Hitler to do everything he did the same as he hand selected Pharaoh to do what he did. God had a good reason, Hitler and Pharaoh had evil reasons for the action taken.

Romans 9:17-18 ESV
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

 

[webdog]

I believe God hand selected Hitler to do everything he did the same as he hand selected Pharaoh to do what he did. God had a good reason, Hitler and Pharaoh had evil reasons for the action taken.

Romans 9:17-18 ESV
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

So I'm clear, you sit in the hyper camp that states God is the author of sin?, because that is just what hand selecting Hitler amounts to and what Ron alludes to (which you agreed with).

 

[J.D.]

Depends on your view I think it's quite clear by the context the prophecy of the Gospel coming to the gentiles is in site.

If it depends on my view then it's not "quite clear".

But it is indeed quite clear what the passage both says and means, and it doesn't depend on my view to say it or mean it.

 

[webdog]

If it depends on my view then it's not "quite clear".

But it is indeed quite clear what the passage both says and means, and it doesn't depend on my view to say it or mean it.

If I believe 2+2=4 and you believe 2+2=3 based on this, it's apparent who's view is clear...and you are right on what the passage means. Truth is always truth whether we believe it or not.

 

[J.D.]

If I believe 2+2=4 and you believe 2+2=3 based on this, it's apparent who's view is clear...and you are right on what the passage means. Truth is always truth whether we believe it or not.

Bigword of the day - perspicuity - the passage in question is one of the most perspicuous passages in scripture. When you look in the dictionary for the definition of the word perspicuous, it says, "for example, see Acts 13:48".

:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Osage Bluestem]

So I'm clear, you sit in the hyper camp that states God is the author of sin?, because that is just what hand selecting Hitler amounts to and what Ron alludes to (which you agreed with).

I'm in whatever camp says God is sovereign because that is what the scriptures teach. Regarding Ron and his views, I am quite familiar with them. I have posted with Ron for over two years on another site. I have used two different monikers, DD2008 and Osage Bluestem. Ron has used mlgurqw and Ron Wood. We have been on each others friend list for years. Ron's pastor is Don Fortner. He is a very solid pastor from what I've seen.

God is not the author of sin and that is not what sovereignty means. He has decreed everything that will ever be done because he works all things according to the council of his will, but his will is good. There is no evil in God at all.

In other words, if a raging muslim came and lit you on fire it would be a sin for him because his intentions were evil, but if you are one of God's elect it is good for you that you were lit on fire because it is for your benefit and the benefit of other children of God in God's overall plan.

God thinks in eternity we think in a box.

 

[Aaron]

Folks, there is no reasoning with webdog. Like most noncalvinists he allows his biases to rule his understanding of the Scriptures. When the obvious meaning of a passage contradicts his biases, then he scrambles to the concordance looking for some obscurity to use as a means of escape. Suddenly the rare and dubious usages of a word was the intent of the author, because that's what fits his model.

The funny thing is, in this case the "alternate" meaning slams the door shut on him as well. :laugh:

 

[webdog]

Folks, there is no reasoning with webdog. Like most noncalvinists he allows his biases to rule his understanding of the Scriptures. When the obvious meaning of a passage contradicts his biases, then he scrambles to the concordance looking for some obscurity to use as a means of escape. Suddenly the rare and dubious usages of a word was the intent of the author, because that's what fits his model.

The funny thing is, in this case the "alternate" meaning slams the door shut on him as well. :laugh:

Folks, Aaron likes to post meaningless things on numerous threads. He is very good at trolling. I think you are needed under the bridge...

The irony is there are calvinists that also hold to my view, so apparently their "biases" are based on context of Scripture.

 

[webdog]

I'm in whatever camp says God is sovereign because that is what the scriptures teach.

...as am I. Sovereign means in control...not controlling.

 

[Ron Wood]

Webdog, while I can agree that what is related in the passage is a fulfillment of prophecy the very wording of the verse makes it clear that the Spirit didn't intend for us to just see it as a fulfillment of prophecy but as a statement of fact. As many as were appointed believed, no more and no less. Would you have us take it that all the Gentiles who heard Paul and Barnabas believed? I am sorry but you are inserting a meaning into the text it simply will not support.

 

[webdog]

Webdog, while I can agree that what is related in the passage is a fulfillment of prophecy the very wording of the verse makes it clear that the Spirit didn't intend for us to just see it as a fulfillment of prophecy but as a statement of fact. As many as were appointed believed, no more and no less. Would you have us take it that all the Gentiles who heard Paul and Barnabas believed? I am sorry but you are inserting a meaning into the text it simply will not support.

I never even suggested what you ask.

 

[Ron Wood]

...as am I. Sovereign means in control...not controlling.

Sovereign means absolute ruler. Whatever God doesn't control must control Him. If He determines what He does by what we do then He is controlled by us. Whatever controls God is His God. God is a God of purpose. Everything He does He does on purpose and for a purpose. I already gave you the passages that clearly say that all things are of God. But let me give youu a few more just in case you didn't read them:
Pro 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Pro 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.
Isa 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
Isa 14:27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

 

[Ron Wood]

I never even suggested what you ask.

No but it is the conclusion of your limited interpretation.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Sovereign means absolute ruler. Whatever God doesn't control must control Him. If He determines what He does by what we do then He is controlled by us. Whatever controls God is His God. God is a God of purpose. Everything He does He does on purpose and for a purpose. I already gave you the passages that clearly say that all things are of God. But let me give youu a few more just in case you didn't read them:
Pro 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Pro 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.
Isa 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
Isa 14:27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

Great post.

Those are great passages to study.

Thanks.

 

[psalms109:31]

wickwicke

We all are wicked created for the day of destruction. There is none righteousness not one. The only way to salvation is the Lord the sure foundation. Those who trust in Him will not be put to shame. What a guarentee. Those Scriptures are there for us to run to Him not run away. God is sovereign and He can save people they way He wants to. Since He wants to keep the meek and the humble who will trust in the name of the Lord include those who hear the Gospel of their salvation having believed and hide the truth from the wise and learned who trust in their own understanding. God can do what He wants to you can't throw the sovereign card and say He can't, God can do what He wants to the way He wants and He doesn't need our aproval to do it

 

[~JM~]

Osage/Ron, fancy meeting you guys here. This place ain't much better than the last.

 

[Skandelon]

Acts 13:48 ESV
48And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

What does this pasage teach us?

What sticks out to me is the last part, "and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."

I believe this passage clearly shows that God elects people to salvation and those elect people believe as a result of that election.

So it is not their belief that caused their election to eternal life but their election to eternal life that caused their belief.

I believe it is Adam Clarke and maybe others who use the Calvinistic method of interpretation on this verse. What I mean is when the word "all" is used through scripture Calvinists often supply the word "all kinds" so as to make the intent to mean both Jews and Gentiles, rather than all mankind without exception. (which is a possibility, though unlikely in some context IMO)

Well, keeping that in mind, non-Calvinists can do the same with this verse. What we must remember is that the term "Gentiles" is not like the term "Jews," because Gentiles aren't all of one nation. Gentile simply means "non-Jew," so actually there are many nationalities that make up the Gentiles. In the context of Acts 13 the question of God's choosing other nations, besides Israel is in question. How do we know what nations God has chosen to allow to enter into His covenant? The authors answer is that you will know them by their faith. You will know the ones who have been appointed by the fruits of their faith.

So, the verse could simply be understood as meaning, "and as many [kinds] as were appointed to eternal life believed." Or put differently, "as many nations [Samaritan, Philistine, Ninevites, etc etc] as were appointed to eternal life proved their being chosen by their belief."

 

[webdog]

Sovereign means absolute ruler.

Actually it means supreme authority. Get a good dictionary

Whatever God doesn't control must control Him.

Non sequitur as I already maintained God is in control.

If He determines what He does by what we do then He is controlled by us.

You have just trampled God's sovereignty by telling Him what He must do, in essence "controlling" Him. Ironic.

Whatever controls God is His God.

That makes no sense.

God is a God of purpose. Everything He does He does on purpose and for a purpose.

Agreed.

I already gave you the passages that clearly say that all things are of God. But let me give youu a few more just in case you didn't read them:

Sin is not of God. I know you lean toward the hyper calvinist camp, or might be fully in it...but it is false.

Pro 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Pro 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.
Isa 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
Isa 14:27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

Great passages...not one supports hyper-calvinism, though.