Acts 17 and Total Inability

[Dball65]

@Dave G
I have read your responses carefully and so far stand by what I have stated earlier.
Psalms 5:5-6 and Psalms 11:5 refer to the enemies of Israel who where reprobate after long suffering, Deuteronomy 9:3-5 and covers those who through history who do not not like (choose) to retain God in their knowledge.

All fell in Adam and all through Jesus have the opportunity by hearing the word of God to repent and be born again.
Romans 5:19 and context.
John 3:16 and context for born again.

Now lets get back to Matthew 23:37 and the 2 wills of God offered by the following.
John Piper - Both divine, Desire and Glory.
John Gill - Human and Divine.

So far, I cannot reconcile these with God's word.

 

[SavedByGrace]

It is abundantly clear to all who want to listen to the Word of God, that Acts 17:30 is a universal call to repentance

"Indeed, therefore, God overlooking the times of ignorance, now strictly commands all people everywhere to repent"

Why would God need to "give orders" (παραγγέλλω) to those who are of the "elect", to repent, when they have been "enabled" to do so, as some teach, and would certainly do so? In verse 26 Paul says, "And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth". It follows that this "Command" by God that the "all people everywhere", must mean "the all nations of human beings" that Paul refers to. God would not "Command" a universal repentance of sinners, unless the Death of Jesus Christ is also "universal". Jesus Himself says, that He came to "call sinners to repentance" (Luke 5:32), which must include the entire human race, as ALL have sinned! (Romans 3:23)

 

[SavedByGrace]

Perhaps hate does not really mean "hate", and "abhor" does not really mean the same as "hate"?

have you ever read Psalm 106:40? "Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against His people, insomuch that he abhorred His own inheritance"

Clear that God "despises/loaths", (as the Hebrew has it), His own inheritance, who are His own people! So it is not true to suggest that God only "hates" those who are unsaved!

 

[SavedByGrace]

The INABILITY is not God preventing people from doing what He commands, it is the unwillingness of sinful people to approach God without the irresistible draw of the Father to call them home to the arms of the Son.

It has always interested me when reading John chapter 5, when Jesus heals a lame man on the Sabbath Day. The Jews who are enraged by this, and all the more wanted to murder Jesus (verse 18). Verse 19 begins with the words, "So Jesus said to them...", and all that follows is Jesus speaking to these same Jews who wanted to murder Him. In verses 24 and 25, Jesus tells these, "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live". Then, in verse 34, "Not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved". And, again in verses 39 and 40, "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life."

So much for "total inability"! The fact that you speak of "the unwillingness of sinful people", can only mean that these have FREE WILL to either accept or reject the Lord Jesus Christ!

 

[George Antonios]

The INABILITY is not God preventing people from doing what He commands, it is the unwillingness of sinful people to approach God

Sigh. The usual "kick the can down the road" answer.
The effects of the fall were determined of God in his sovereignty.
According to Calvinism, it is God who so constituted mankind in Adam as to render them unable to even discern their fallen state nor even to simply believe the truth.
So the reason why they are "unwilling" is because God made them "unable".
The inherited inability was programed of God - it wasn't a random result.
And we haven't even broached how God predestinated Adam's fall to begin with.

 

[Dball65]

Someone please explain God's 2 or 3 wills.
So far with Gill and Piper I have the Trinity with 3 wills.

Human will - Jesus, Matthew 23:37
Desire will - The Father, 2 Peter 3:9
Glory will - The Father, Piper and Gill...?

Please set this straight.

 

[Dave G]

@Dave G
I have read your responses carefully and so far stand by what I have stated earlier.

I respect that.

Psalms 5:5-6 and Psalms 11:5 refer to the enemies of Israel who where reprobate after long suffering,

I see nothing about anyone being an enemy of Israel in those passages.
Would you please point that out in the context?

I see the phrase, "hateth ALL workers of iniquity" and to me, that means exactly what it says.
God hates all sinners ( well, except for His children who He sent His Son to die for, that is ).

All fell in Adam and all through Jesus have the opportunity by hearing the word of God to repent and be born again.

One does not hear God's words unless one is "of God".
See John 8:43-47.

In addition, being born again is not by our will, but by God's will ( John 1:13, James 1:18 ).
He is the one who bestows that gift apart from anything that we want Him to do.

 

[Dave G]

Romans 5:19 and context.

I agree.
To me, the "many" that were made righteous are the "whosoever believeth" from John 3:16.

This is subject to Romans 8:28-30, Romans 9, John 6:37-47, John 6:64-65, John 8:43-47, John 10:26-28, Ephesians 1:3-14, Ephesians 2:1-10, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 and many others in their contexts.

John 3:16 and context for born again.

Regrettably, I see nothing in John 3:16 that mentions being born again.
I do see it mentioned by the Lord Jesus in John 3:3.

But I also see that Scripture has already addressed how and why a person is born again:
John 1:11-13 and context....
As many as received Him did so because they were not born of blood, the will of the flesh nor the will of men.;
They were born of God.
Our will as sinners had nothing to do with it.

James 1:18 and what it clearly states...
Believers were "begotten" by of His own will ( not ours ) by the word of truth.

How does one become born again?
Scripture tells us that God opens the heart so that someone listens to His words ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).

Now lets get back to Matthew 23:37 and the 2 wills of God offered by the following.

I believe the thread is about Acts 17 and "total inability".

However, my own understanding of Matthew 23:37 is that it means exactly what it says...
Jesus would, and Jerusalem would not.

This reflects the heart of sinful men in that God would, but man would not.
This is what makes John 3:19-20 the painful reality that it is.

 

[Dave G]

The effects of the fall were determined of God in his sovereignty.

I disagree, George.

The affects of the Fall were allowed by God;
He didn't "program us" to sin.
This is described fully in Romans 1:18-32.

However, if one were to say that God determined what would become of us ( as a race ) by giving us over to that which we had come to love, then I would agree.

According to Calvinism, it is God who so constituted mankind in Adam as to render them unable to even discern their fallen state nor even to simply believe the truth.

According to the Bible, it is God who so constituted mankind in Adam as to leave us in our fallen state,
voluntarily darkened in the vanity of our minds ( Romans 1:18-32, Ephesians 4:17-19 ) unless He decides to save us through His mercy and grace ( Romans 11:32, Galatians 3:22 ).

We are unable to discern our fallen state because apart from the new birth, we don't care one whit about it.
Believing the truth about Jesus Christ runs a close parallel to that, unless one factors in Satan's blinding of men to the truth of the Gospel ( 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ), "just in case".

 

[Dave G]

So the reason why they are "unwilling" is because God made them "unable".

George,
I thought you understood what so-called "Calvinists" believe and teach about man's condition...

The foundation of "total inability" is God having given us, as a race, over to sin and our love of it, and our foolish hearts were then darkened.
It was on us, not Him.
He simply allowed us ( humanity ) to have what we wanted.

In other words,
He gave us our heart's desire and we're to blame for not seeking reconciliation with Him.

The inherited inability was programed of God - it wasn't a random result.

I quite agree, sir.
It was far from a random result;

He gave us up and gave us over on purpose...
So that He might condemn sin and sinners in His wrath, and show His grace to others in His mercy and kindness through His Son, Jesus Christ.

 

[Dave G]

And we haven't even broached how God predestinated Adam's fall to begin with.

What if He did?
Is that something that you or I should feel qualified to judge?

See Romans 9:14-24.
Who are we to question His purposes?

I'm not about to do that, my friend...
He is the Lord, and we are His creations.
Again as in other threads, we botched it.

If He wanted to, He could have simply skipped the saving part ( which meant giving up His own dear Son in the process ) and simply let us all live out our lives...and unceremoniously tossed the lot of us into eternal torment in His justice.

At the end of the day, I'm just grateful that He saved me from my own willful mess.
Aren't you?

 

[George Antonios]

I disagree, George.

The affects of the Fall were allowed by God;
He didn't "program us" to sin.
This is described fully in Romans 1:18-32.

However, if one were to say that God determined what would become of us ( as a race ) by giving us over to that which we had come to love, then I would agree.

According to the Bible, it is God who so constituted mankind in Adam as to leave us in our fallen state,
voluntarily darkened in the vanity of our minds ( Romans 1:18-32, Ephesians 4:17-19 ) unless He decides to save us through His mercy and grace ( Romans 11:32, Galatians 3:22 ).

We are unable to discern our fallen state because apart from the new birth, we don't care one whit about it.
Believing the truth about Jesus Christ runs a close parallel to that, unless one factors in Satan's blinding of men to the truth of the Gospel ( 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ), "just in case".

The affects of the Fall were allowed by God;

And a little kick to the can down the road yet again, totally ignoring the very specific point raised.

 

[Dave G]

And a little kick to the can down the road yet again, totally ignoring the point raised.

I believe that I addressed the point thoroughly.

But in case you missed it:
Declaring that God chose to allow the Fall, and then giving us over to that which we decided to love of our own free will ( and doing it for His own purposes ), is stating that God does things as He wishes in the armies of Heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth ( Daniel 4:35 ).

He didn't force us to sin...
Even though He set things in motion knowing that we would indeed disobey Him,
given the circumstances of allowing Satan to tempt Adam and Eve.


If you're unclear on that or wish to contest His right to do as He wishes, do it with Him.
I doubt that you'll get very far.

 

[Dball65]

@Dave G
Read your points pretty sure I covered them.
This stood out though.

agree.
To me, the "many" that were made righteous are the "whosoever believeth"

Romans 5:19
“For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”
So "many" not "all" fell?

I will take the lack of response on the 2 wills inquiry to be a yes for now.

 

[Dball65]

@Dave G

He didn't force us to sin...

Does He force us to Hell and the second death?
Or do we choose to go there?
Does He Love all and offer through Christ a way of escape or does He Hate most of mankind?

 

[atpollard]

unable

Unwilling. (John 3:20)

 

[Dave G]

Romans 5:19
“For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”
So "many" not "all" fell?

Does the Bible not say, "For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God"?
" There is NONE righteous, no not one"?

Does He force us to Hell and the second death?

Who do you think commands the angels to cast people into the Lake of Fire?
Sinners deserving of judgment.

Or do we choose to go there?

Nobody chooses to go to everlasting punishment.
The wailing and gnashing of teeth will be clear testimony to that.

 

[Dave G]

Does He Love all and offer through Christ a way of escape or does He Hate most of mankind?

Where do you get the impression that He loves everyone?
John 3:16?
That's one verse among many.

Look at it a bit closer in the light of all that His word has to tell us.
Then look at Psalms 5:5-6, Psalms 11:5, Romans 9:13 and several others.

Again, does "hate" actually mean "hate"?
Because if it does ( and I am convinced that it does ), then many people have a massive contradiction to resolve;
How God can love everyone and still consign people to the Lake of Fire and His Son call them "cursed" ( Matthew 25:41 ), call them "dogs" ( Revelation 22:15 ) and tell them "I never knew you" ( Matthew 7:21-23 )?

But I agree with you that He offers escape through Christ... but that offer is to His sheep, His elect from the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ), even though He chooses not to save most of mankind.

The real question is, have you believed on Him from the heart, and do you have a deep and abiding hope in Him?
Then you're one of His elect, my friend.

He loves you.

 

[George Antonios]

I believe that I addressed the point thoroughly.

But in case you missed it:
Declaring that God chose to allow the Fall, and then giving us over to that which we decided to love of our own free will ( and doing it for His own purposes ), is stating that God does things as He wishes in the armies of Heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth ( Daniel 4:35 ).

He didn't force us to sin...
Even though He set things in motion knowing that we would indeed disobey Him,
given the circumstances of allowing Satan to tempt Adam and Eve.


If you're unclear on that or wish to contest His right to do as He wishes, do it with Him.
I doubt that you'll get very far.

The verb "allowed" is not addressing the point thoroughly.
The effects of the fall were not random.
They were designed.
A Calvinist should know that, yet whenever we get to this point, all of a sudden he shrinks from God's sovereignty.

 

[George Antonios]

Unwilling. (John 3:20)

T is for Total Inability.

We're the ones who say unwilling.