Acts 28:28

[atpollard]

Something you Calvinist need to explain;
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Rather than pull another thread off-topic with a bunny trail, I thought it easier to respond with a new Topic. So first, here is Acts 28:28 in context:

Acts 28:16-31 NASB
16 When we entered Rome, Paul was allowed to stay by himself, with the soldier who was guarding him.
17 After three days [fn]Paul called together those who were the leading men of the Jews, and when they came together, he began saying to them, “Brethren, though I had done nothing against our people or the customs of our [fn]fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans. 18 And when they had examined me, they were willing to release me because there was no ground [fn]for putting me to death. 19 But when the Jews [fn]objected, I was forced to appeal to Caesar, not that I had any accusation against my nation. 20 For this reason, therefore, I [fn]requested to see you and to speak with you, for I am wearing this chain for the sake of the hope of Israel.” 21 They said to him, “We have neither received letters from Judea concerning you, nor have any of the brethren come here and reported or spoken anything bad about you. 22 But we desire to hear from you what [fn]your views are; for concerning this sect, it is known to us that it is spoken against everywhere.”
23 When they had set a day for Paul, they came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly testifying about the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus, from both the Law of Moses and from the Prophets, from morning until evening. 24 Some were being persuaded by the things spoken, but others would not believe. 25 And when they did not agree with one another, they began leaving after Paul had spoken one parting word, “The Holy Spirit rightly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your fathers, 26 saying,
‘GO TO THIS PEOPLE AND SAY,
“[fn]YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, [fn]BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
AND [fn]YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
27 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
AND WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES;
OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.”’
28 Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will also listen.” 29 [[fn]When he had spoken these words, the Jews departed, having a great dispute among themselves.]
30 And he stayed two full years [fn]in his own rented quarters and was welcoming all who came to him, 31 [fn]preaching the kingdom of God and teaching concerning the Lord Jesus Christ with all openness, unhindered.

Personally, I don't see it as being that difficult a verse to comprehend when reading the story surrounding it. Paul was under guard in Rome and awaiting his appeal to Caesar. Paul had just arrived and was under "house arrest". Paul invited the Jewish leaders in Rome to hear his message, which resulted in only an argument among the Jews followed by a a parting word from Paul concerning the hardness of their hearts and their spiritual blindness and deafness to the Truth.

Then Paul concludes with the verse you want a "Calvinist" to explain.

"Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will also listen."

So here goes:

• Therefore: indicates what follows is because of what immediately came before ... the hardness of the Jews in this case.
• let it be known to you: Paul is making a public proclamation ... a prophetic warning to the Jews to whom he was speaking.
• that this salvation of God: Paul had just finished explaining to the Jews the "Gospel" (good news) that God had sent Jesus as to save the people just as Isaiah has foretold ... as a Calvinist I would be remiss in not pointing out that once again the Bible emphasizes that salvation is "of God" and not "of our faith".
• has been sent to the Gentiles: Salvation, which came first to the Jews (the 12 and the disciples and the preaching in and around Jerusalem) has been sent to the gentiles. By this point in Acts, that should not come as a surprise to the reader. Jesus gave the Great Commission to carry the good news to the ends of the earth and to make disciples of all nations, Peter had been called by God in a dream to visit gentiles and baptize them, Paul and Barnabas had set out on missionary journeys to spread the Gospel to the gentiles. So the fact that Salvation has been sent to the gentiles is not a head-scratcher.
• they will also listen: The Jewish Leaders came to visit Paul because they had hears about this Jewish sect that everyone spoke against. Paul explained to them what these "rebel" Jews believed, and ended with the claim that the gentiles would also believe this "good news". This is nothing more and nothing less than an affirmation of the parable of the vine and the branches. Jesus is the Vine that some Jews have remained firmly attached to and been pruned to be more fruitful, while other Jews have been chopped off and cast away. Here Paul affirms that there are Gentile branches that God will surely graft into this vine. After all "this salvation" IS "of God" and not of men.

I hope that explains it for you.
Honestly, my Wesleyan answer would not have been much different.

 

[JD731]

Rather than pull another thread off-topic with a bunny trail, I thought it easier to respond with a new Topic. So first, here is Acts 28:28 in context:


I hope that explains it for you.
Honestly, my Wesleyan answer would not have been much different.

First of all, whoever translated that passage confused it with the words he chose for the text. I believe that fellow will not fare very well in the judgment. I would hate to be in his shoes.It is ok for God to choose the people in advance for his salvation but not the words to tell about it. That was awful. I don't even want to read them again.

I would post here a parable by the Lord Jesus Christ that gives us information about this time. Then I will give you some information from an epistle written to the Hebrews during this time with some conclusions.

Lk 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man (Jesus Christ) had a fig tree (Symbol for national Israel) planted in his vineyard (Palestine); and he (Jesus Christ) came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.(see footnote)
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

It was cut down and removed from the vineyard in 70 AD, about three years after the events of Acts 28.


Hebrews

3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.


3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;


6:11And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:


The number 40 is the number for probation in the scriptures. The parable in Lk 13 outlines a probationary time for the fig tree.to remain in the vineyard but it must produce fruit at the end of it. In Hebrews 3 this generation is likened to the same people for the same period of time under Moses, a like prophet to Jesus Christ. One should read it in this connection. They could enter into the rest of God after this probation if they believe.They did not and they died and was buried nationally and time stops for those who are dead.Time stopped for the nation of Israel. This is why Paul dismissed the Jews and did not preach another sermon to them nationally. God will not deal with them again until sometime after he raises the nation from the dead. He did that in 1948 but they are raised as a great army but without the Spirit. They must be born again.

.Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Life from the dead is a resurrection.

So, it was 40 years from the death of Jesus Christ to the destruction of Jerusalem and the dissolving of their nation and the dispersion of her people. That was the end of the generation of Jesus Christ. From here they will be considered as gentiles because they are no longer under the ruler-ship of God and the church will be built from gentiles only. It has a gentile character and is typified by 8 gentile women of the OT who married to Jewish men, types of Christ. This is during what the scriptures refers as "the times of the gentiles" when the political system is controlled entirely by gentiles.

Our Bible makes perfect sense by sensible men who understands that God is ministering to people who have a will of their own and who have more than one deity they can serve. It is a matter of choice who they serve and there is much deceit.If men harden their hearts to light then they will not get any more.


Footnote:

18 Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered.
19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
20 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!

(This was on Monday morning before the crucifixion on Friday morning)

 

[atpollard]

First of all, whoever translated that passage confused it with the words he chose for the text. I believe that fellow will not fare very well in the judgment.

That is a rather harsh statement concerning a translation. Do you have a specific verse that seems particularly worthy of punishment over its wording?

 

[Dave G]

That is a rather harsh statement concerning a translation. Do you have a specific verse that seems particularly worthy of punishment over its wording?

Not to start a bunny trail off this thread, Mr. Pollard...
and I actually found your post above very agreeable, but I don't use the NASB because of this:

" who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" ( Philippians 2:6, AV )
"who although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped," ( Philippians 2:3, NASB ).

...and this:

" For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]. " ( Ephesians 6:12, AV ).
" For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual [forces] of wickedness in the heavenly [places]." ( Ephesians 6:12, NASB ).

...and finally this:

" This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son." ( 1 John 5:6-9, AV ).


" This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
7 For there are three that testify:
8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son." ( 1 John 5:6-9, NASB ).


Depending on which translation(s) are the actual words of God in English...
and which one has had them either added, changed or subtracted, someone has to answer to God for mishandling His precious words, because they do not read even close to the same in some places.

In the case of 1 John 5:6-9, here is what is either added or subtracted depending on who one asks their opinion of it:

" ...in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth..."

Whether it's the translators of the AV or the NASB who have man-handled God's words is for you to decide, good sir.
But it has happened or is happening, and it's serious.


So serious, that I would not want to be the person who has to answer for those changes.

 

[Dave G]

@atpollard :

To respond to your OP,
I posted my reply to MB in the other thread and don't feel the need to repeat it here in its entirety.
But:

I still maintain that it is only those who have ears to hear within the Gentile nations that will hear.
And hear they do, to this day.

I also see that you've brought up an important point, and that is what we find in Romans 11...

Jesus is the Vine that some Jews have remained firmly attached to and been pruned to be more fruitful, while other Jews have been chopped off and cast away. Here Paul affirms that there are Gentile branches that God will surely graft into this vine. After all "this salvation" IS "of God" and not of men.

Amen.
Elect Gentiles, as a group, now grafted in to the olive tree with elect Israel.

 

[atpollard]

Not to start a bunny trail off this thread, Mr. Pollard...
and I actually found your post above very agreeable, but I don't use the NASB because of this:

" who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" ( Philippians 2:6, AV )
"who although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped," ( Philippians 2:6, NASB ).

I am, personally, very skeptical of strong criticisms of most Bible Translations. Setting aside deliberate mistranslations by cults (like the JW bible), most translation teams seem to have been fairly honest in their efforts and the differences in phraseology falls within the allowable range of legitimate meanings of the Greek texts (for the NT).

Since this topic served little purpose, I would welcome a “bunny trail” to examine whether any translator really has anything to “answer for” concerning their translation of Philippians 2:6.

Here are a multitude of translations for Philippians 2:6 ...

• [KJV] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
• [NKJV] who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
• [NLT] Though he was God,
  he did not think of equality with God
  as something to cling to.
  
• [NIV] Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
• [ESV] who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
• [CSB] who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be exploited.
• [NASB] who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
• [NET] who though he existed in the form of God did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped,
• [RSV] who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
• [ASV] who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,
• [YLT] who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God,
• [DBY] who, subsisting in the form of God, did not esteem it an object of rapine to be on an equality with God;
• [WEB] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

So the question for me is “Do any of these translations convey a significantly different meaning?” and I do not believe that they do.

Breaking it down just by the Greek Interlinear,

• [MGT] ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ
• [TR] ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ

• ὃς (G3739) = hós, hos; the relatively (sometimes demonstrative) pronoun, who, which, what, that
  
• ἐν (G1722) = en, en; a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively); "in," at, (up-)on, by, etc.
  
• μορφῇ (G3444) = morphḗ, mor-fay'; the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; the external appearance
  
• θεοῦ (G2316) = theós, theh'-os; a deity, especially the supreme Divinity
  
• ὑπάρχων (G5225) = hypárchō, hoop-ar'-kho; to begin under (quietly), i.e. come into existence (be present or at hand); expletively, to exist - to be in the form of God
• οὐχ (G3756) = ou, oo; the absolute negative; no or not
• ἁρπαγμὸν (G725) = harpagmós, har-pag-mos'; plunder, robbery - a thing seized as booty
• ἡγήσατο (G2233) = hēgéomai, hayg-eh'-om-ahee; to lead, i.e. command (with official authority); figuratively, to deem, i.e. consider:—account, (be) chief, count, esteem, governor, judge, have the rule over, suppose, think.
• τὸ (G3588) = ho, ho; the definite article; the:—the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
• εἶναι (G1511) = eînai, i'-nahee; to exist:—am, was. come, is, there is, to be, was.
• ἴσα (G2470) = ísos, ee'-sos; similar (in amount and kind): agree, as much, equal, like.
  
• θεῷ (G2326) = theós, theh'-os; a deity, especially the supreme Divinity

Do all of these translations convey approximately the same meaning as the Greek words?

 

[Dave G]

Do all of these translations convey approximately the same meaning as the Greek words?

That depends on the "Greek".

As you and I both know, there are several collated Greek texts floating around...
The "Received Text", the Critical Text and the Majority Text.

I'm not going to get into the differences among them, but to be brief, they don't all say the same thing.

So the question for me is “Do any of these translations convey a significantly different meaning?” and I do not believe that they do.

I disagree, and to me there is a significant difference in many areas, depending upon how closely one looks at the words...translated or otherwise.

Since this is not in the Bible Translations section, I feel that we probably should start a thread over there...
But, since you've consented to it, here's what I will address, and it's the very words of Philippians 2:6;

Notice the difference:

In the AV, NKJV and YLT, it says very clearly that Jesus Christ, being in the form of God, did not think it was robbery to be equal with God.
In other words, He, as God in the flesh, did not think it was stealing from the glory of God to be His equal.

In the NASB it says the complete opposite:
That Christ did not think that equality with God was a thing to be grasped.
In other words, that He was not equal with God.

The NIV states it even worse...
That He did not consider equality with God something to be used to His own advantage....when in the words of the Gospels, He did indeed claim to be God, when He said, "...before Abraham was, I am."
He also said that He could have called 12 legions of angels to assist Him if He so wished.

You don't make that connection?

 

[Dave G]

Notice the difference:

In the AV, NKJV and YLT, it says very clearly that Jesus Christ, being in the form of God, did not think it was robbery to be equal with God.
In other words, He, as God in the flesh, did not think it was stealing from the glory of God to be His equal.

In the NASB it says the complete opposite:
That Christ did not think that equality with God was a thing to be grasped.
In other words, that He was not equal with God.

The NIV states it even worse...
That He did not consider equality with God something to be used to His own advantage....when in the words of the Gospels, He did indeed claim to be God, when He said, "...before Abraham was, I am."
He also said that He could have called 12 legions of angels to assist Him if He so wished.

You don't make that connection?

Having thought at some length about my earlier reply, I'll amend my above to read:

"In the AV, NKJV and YLT, it says very clearly that Jesus Christ, being in the form of God, did not think it was robbery to be equal with God.
In other words, He, as God in the flesh, did not think it was stealing from the glory of God to be His equal."

" In the NASB it says it just a bit differently:
That Christ did not think that equality with God was a thing to be grasped.

What that means I'm not entirely sure, but it doesn't mean the same as the AV, NKJV and YLT.
To me, they are noticeably different."


With that said, I will leave the thread to you, sir, and bid you a good evening.