Acts 8:18

LisaMC · Feb 7, 2003

Mark H.

Y'know, back when you first posted those, I thought that might be what you were getting at. But I wasn't sure, because some people might say that 1 Cor. 15:35, etc., are focused more on the "body" side of things (with Paul answering the question of "How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?").
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Hmm--And I suspected that you would make that point today.

Anyhow, I'll be back a little later today to "spring the trap."
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Hey! Wait a minute . . . I thought you already did that!

dumbox1 · Feb 7, 2003

Hi Lisa,

Not really making a point -- just making excuses for why I was slow on the uptake about what you were saying!

Back soon,

Mark

dumbox1 · Feb 7, 2003

Hi Lisa!

Aaargh! It's two minutes to 5 (east coast time) and I've got to go home and nurse my wife and her cold.

But I'll be back and posting on Monday, I promise.

Sorry, sorry, sorry . . . the day just snuck away from me!

Mark

dumbox1 · Feb 10, 2003

Hi Lisa,

Sorry about the delay – time got away from me on Friday, so I’m writing this over the weekend and I’ll post it on Monday. (Of course, by the time you read this, I’ll have done so already, so I guess it doesn’t really matter ….)

Where we left off, if I remember right, was with a general agreement that we continue to sin to some extent throughout our lives on earth (even after giving ourselves over to God), but that God will cleanse us of that tendency to sin before we enter heaven. (Hence, we won’t sin once we’re there).

As you've probably already guessed (since you've been way ahead of me so far ), this is where I tell you that it looks like you have at least a rudimentary belief in "purgatory" -- because, in Catholic terminology, that's what that "cleansing" is called (from the Latin purgare, meaning “to purify” or “to purge”).

Or, as the Catechism puts it (with my additions in square brackets):

“All who die in God’s grace and friendship [i.e., those who have given themselves over to God and are headed to heaven], but still imperfectly purified [i.e., those who still have a tendency to sin, for example], are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven [i.e., they’re cleansed of that tendency to sin]. The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification.”
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Frankly, I think about 95% of non-Catholics have this same sort of rudimentary belief in such a purification. The only exceptions – and I’ve noticed a couple of them on this board on another thread recently – are those who (contrary to all evidence) believe that they really are “Scotchguarded against sinning” in their earthly lives once they accept Jesus as their Savior.

Now, don’t get me wrong – I'm not trying to overstate the extent to which we agree. I intentionally said that this is a “rudimentary” belief, so I’m sure you and I can still find various things to disagree about with respect to purgatory (other than the mere existence of such a purification). Although, frankly, the Catholic view is pretty rudimentary itself – not a whole lot has been defined, and most things are left open for theologians (or even nitwits like me!) to argue about.

For example, questions like “Is this purification instantaneous or time-consuming?” or “What all are we purified of, exactly?” or “How does it work, exactly?” are pretty much wide open for discussion and debate. The only other aspects that are (somewhat) defined are (i) that, if we pray for those being purified, God will somehow give effect to those prayers; and (ii) that the purification involves some sort of pain (not necessarily – in fact, probably not, in my opinion – physical in nature). The most frequent analogy for this is to a "purifying fire" -- sort of like refining the impurities out of gold.

Anyway, we can chat about those areas, if you’d like. (Or we can find something else to talk about.)

In the meantime, though, if anyone asks if you “believe in purgatory,” at least you can say something like, “Well, I do believe in a purification between death and heaven, but I’m not sure if I agree with those wacky Catholics about x, y and z aspects of it . . . .”

Or something like that.

God bless,

Mark H.

LisaMC · Feb 21, 2003

Okay, Mark, I've put you off long enough.

Where we left off, if I remember right, was with a general agreement that we continue to sin to some extent throughout our lives on earth (even after giving ourselves over to God), but that God will cleanse us of that tendency to sin before we enter heaven. (Hence, we won’t sin once we’re there).
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Okay.

As you've probably already guessed (since you've been way ahead of me so far ), this is where I tell you that it looks like you have at least a rudimentary belief in "purgatory" -- because, in Catholic terminology, that's what that "cleansing" is called (from the Latin purgare, meaning “to purify” or “to purge”).
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Hmmmmmmmm . . . I believe that we are cleansed and forgiven for our sins. So, I don't know that I agree with that generalization.

Or, as the Catechism puts it (with my additions in square brackets):

“All who die in God’s grace and friendship [i.e., those who have given themselves over to God and are headed to heaven], but still imperfectly purified [i.e., those who still have a tendency to sin, for example], are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven [i.e., they’re cleansed of that tendency to sin]. The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification.”

Frankly, I think about 95% of non-Catholics have this same sort of rudimentary belief in such a purification. The only exceptions – and I’ve noticed a couple of them on this board on another thread recently – are those who (contrary to all evidence) believe that they really are “Scotchguarded against sinning” in their earthly lives once they accept Jesus as their Savior.
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But, non-Catholics, I think (and I'm relatively new at this. Before two years ago, I never really thought in this much depth.) consider the cleansing as a one time washing away of the sins. The cleansing is both retroactive and proactive.

Now, don’t get me wrong – I'm not trying to overstate the extent to which we agree. I intentionally said that this is a “rudimentary” belief, so I’m sure you and I can still find various things to disagree about with respect to purgatory (other than the mere existence of such a purification). Although, frankly, the Catholic view is pretty rudimentary itself – not a whole lot has been defined, and most things are left open for theologians (or even nitwits like me!) to argue about.
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I don't think you are a nitwit.

For example, questions like “Is this purification instantaneous or time-consuming?” or “What all are we purified of, exactly?” or “How does it work, exactly?” are pretty much wide open for discussion and debate. The only other aspects that are (somewhat) defined are (i) that, if we pray for those being purified, God will somehow give effect to those prayers; and (ii) that the purification involves some sort of pain (not necessarily – in fact, probably not, in my opinion – physical in nature). The most frequent analogy for this is to a "purifying fire" -- sort of like refining the impurities out of gold.
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Okay.

Anyway, we can chat about those areas, if you’d like. (Or we can find something else to talk about.)
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Since, I'm not very well versed on Purgatory, you can bring up points and we'll discuss them. Is that okay with you?

In the meantime, though, if anyone asks if you “believe in purgatory,” at least you can say something like, “Well, I do believe in a purification between death and heaven, but I’m not sure if I agree with those wacky Catholics about x, y and z aspects of it . . . .”
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This is where you've strayed from my belief. I don't think the cleansing occurs between death and heaven. I think the cleansing occurs before death. Which means I'll have to rethink my take on those verses from Corinthians I quoted earlier. Hmmmmmm?

Or something like that.
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Or not.

LisaMC · Feb 24, 2003

Bumping this up for you Mark.

dumbox1 · Feb 24, 2003

Thanks Lisa!

I see it -- but (as usual) I might not get a chance to think about it for a day or so!

The life of a procrastinating scatterbrain...

Mark

dumbox1 · Feb 24, 2003

Hi Lisa,

I'm not quite sure if we're agreeing or disagreeing here.

(But I hope I haven't made such a negative impression that you'd consider changing your interpretation of a Bible passage just to avoid the possiblity of agreeing with me about something!)

God bless,

Mark

LisaMC · Feb 24, 2003

No, Mark. But, in conversing with you on this subject, one of which I have given little thought, I have had to address what I understand here. If anything, you are helping me clarify things for myself. I realize it drives people nuts, but I can face and admit where my understanding is lacking or seemingly contradicts with my own understanding.

So, anyhoooo, take your time. I'll be around.

dumbox1 · Feb 25, 2003

Hi Lisa,

Well, you did warn me up front that you hadn't looked at this one as closely as some of the other topics, so I can hardly complain two (or however many) months later about it!

Anyway, from the not-necessarily-unbiased point of view of one outside observer (me! ), I think you're right that there may be a little bit of "seeming contradiction" that you need to reconcile.

I'm not sure where (if anywhere) we should go from here. Should we suspend our discussion until a later date? Talk about something else? Try to talk through the "cleansing, etc." dilemma together? I'm open to suggestions.

God bless,

Mark

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