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Actual boundaries of Promised Land , MUCH larger than Israel today
- Thread starter Ascetic X
- Start date
Fairy tales and fiction of Dispensational Zionism this is. 'Greater Israel' is a thing of the past, the promises were fulfilled long ago.
43 So Jehovah gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44 And Jehovah gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; Jehovah delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45 There failed not aught of any good thing which Jehovah had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass. Josh 21
And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which Jehovah your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, not one thing hath failed thereof. Josh 23:14
Blessed be Jehovah, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by Moses his servant. 1 Ki 8:56
For how many soever be the promises of God, in him is the yea: wherefore also through him is the Amen, unto the glory of God through us. 2 Cor 1:20
Gen 15:18 On the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying: "To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates;
25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen, that he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.
26 And he ruled over all the kings from the River even unto the land of the Philistines, and to the border of Egypt. 2 Chron 9
43 So Jehovah gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44 And Jehovah gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; Jehovah delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45 There failed not aught of any good thing which Jehovah had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass. Josh 21
And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which Jehovah your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, not one thing hath failed thereof. Josh 23:14
Blessed be Jehovah, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by Moses his servant. 1 Ki 8:56
For how many soever be the promises of God, in him is the yea: wherefore also through him is the Amen, unto the glory of God through us. 2 Cor 1:20
Gen 15:18 On the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying: "To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates;
25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen, that he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.
26 And he ruled over all the kings from the River even unto the land of the Philistines, and to the border of Egypt. 2 Chron 9
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You're positing the Zionist notion of a 'Greater Israel yet to come, right? The verses most definitely negates that notion.
Your Zionism is disgusting.
Ascetic X
Well-Known Member
Genesis 12:3
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Isaiah 60:14
The sons of those who afflicted you shall come bending low to you, and all who despised you shall bow down at your feet; they shall call you the City of the Lord, the Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 35:10
And the ransomed of the Lord shall return and come to Zion with singing; everlasting joy shall be upon their heads; they shall obtain gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
Hebrews 12:22
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,
Revelation 14:1
Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.
Isaiah 51:3
For the Lord comforts Zion; he comforts all her waste places and makes her wilderness like Eden, her desert like the garden of the Lord; joy and gladness will be found in her, thanksgiving and the voice of song.
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Isaiah 60:14
The sons of those who afflicted you shall come bending low to you, and all who despised you shall bow down at your feet; they shall call you the City of the Lord, the Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 35:10
And the ransomed of the Lord shall return and come to Zion with singing; everlasting joy shall be upon their heads; they shall obtain gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
Hebrews 12:22
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,
Revelation 14:1
Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.
Isaiah 51:3
For the Lord comforts Zion; he comforts all her waste places and makes her wilderness like Eden, her desert like the garden of the Lord; joy and gladness will be found in her, thanksgiving and the voice of song.
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Psalty
Active Member
What do you think of what Nehemiah said?
I personally think that we will see fulfillment of this again at Christs coming. Here are some to think about:
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Then let God give it to them. There's no reason we should have to finance that. They did it on their own with God the first time. They can do it on their own with God, if He's with them, this time.
Psalty
Active Member
I prefer Israel to the Islamic countries, but i know some people think the Jews control the world (not saying you are saying that).
Regardless, we are not obligated to fight for them.
When Oct 7th happened, I thought “is this Gods Leviticus 26 judgment beginning on them because of how secular and LGBT they have become?”
And then I thought, “And if He kicks Israel out of their land for failing to be faithful to Him, what will He do with America for our apostasy?!”
Who are you to dictate to God? God is Sovereign.
Who's dictating to God? I'm saying let God be God. Why muddy up that miracle with our carnal weapons of warfare?
And God is sovereign. He was sovereign for 49 years of Roe v Wade, and for Obergefell v. Hodges. He was sovereign for the Bolshevik Revolution, Mao Zedong, the Chinese annexation of Hong Kong, and for the Bay of Pigs.
Providence is no sanctification of an event. Or are you afraid that the appearance of Israel, falsely so called, in the Middle East might not be proven to be the miracle Dispies proclaim it to be?
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Are you saying that the return of Israel is not in line with prophecy?
Certainly not the prophecies you're thinking of. The Zionist state in the Middle East is not the Israel of the Bible, and it is not the Israel even of Judaism. It is identity theft, as Rabbi Shapiro put it in his book. The religious Jews world wide were against the creation of a Jewish state.
Israel™ certainly is antichrist, and the appearance of that state may be in line with prophecies of the Antichrist, but it's not in line with any prophecy concerning the Israel of God.
Ascetic X
Well-Known Member
Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro is a discredited zealot bent on helping the enemies of Israel.
For example, Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro’s pompous and misguided claim that Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel is nothing short of a historical and theological farce. His attempt to pass off his warped interpretation as divine insight is a masterclass in arrogance and ignorance.
Claiming that Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel because it doesn’t align with his narrow theological framework is an act of intellectual dishonesty. His argument suggests that only a messianic era legitimizes Jewish sovereignty over the city, a view rejected by the vast majority of rabbinic authorities.
Shapiro’s claim is not just theologically absurd; it’s a slap in the face to Jewish history, identity, and the countless prayers and sacrifices made for the city of Jerusalem. Dovid HaMelech’s declaration stands as an eternal reminder that Jerusalem is the heart of the Jewish people.
Jerusalem is, always has been, and always will be the capital of Israel — whether Shaoiro’s inflated ego can handle it or not.
Shapiro makes an absurd and baseless claim that the Torah was given in the desert at Har Sinai to teach us that the Land of Israel is not important, which is pure nonsense. Hashem did not give the Torah to the Jewish people without the Land of Israel being a keystone element in his plan, and the promises to Avraham, Yitzchak, and Yaakov were not tied to the arrival of the Moshiach.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So you are trusting a Rabbi.
How did he deal with:
Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the nations and gather you out of all the countries, and I will bring you back into your own land.
Eze 36:25 I will also sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. I will cleanse you from all your impurities and all your idols.
Eze 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes and to carefully observe My ordinances.
Israel physical restoration happened but the spiritual restoration takes place when Jesus Christ comes and rules from Jerusalem.
What's with all the Judaizing? You think you're being more true to jabber in a dead language than to say Abraham, Isaac or Jacob? Or Christ? The demons are subject to Jeezus, Heysoose, and Yayzu as much as Yeshua.
It's just a fact that Israel, as defined by Judaism for two millennia, is not a geopolitical nation. Zionism is a new thing.
It's also a fact that the real Israel, the Israel of the Bible, the Israel of God, that is Mount Zion, is the Church of the Firstborn.
Heb 12:22-23
I've had a book on my shelves for a number of years, A Rabbi Talks with Jesus, by Jacob Neusner. He was considered by many the foremost authority on Judaism in the first centuries of Christianity. He wasn't an Orthdox Jew. He was a Reform Jew, but the way Shapiro identifies 'true Jews' reminded me of the way Neusner identified Israel.
Neusner spoke of an 'eternal Israel', by which he meant all Jews from Sinai forward, and of an 'Israel of the here and now,' by which he meant Jews practicing in a community. In one of his dialogues with the Jesus of his imagination drawn from the Gospel of Matthew*, Neusner saw Jesus preaching a new Israel in His commandment to seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness...
"But, sir, the Israel of home and family is where I am."
And that leads me to ask my other question provoked by my reckoning with the Ten Commandments: What of Israel where it is, what of Israel when it takes place? [he does not mean Israel™] And to clarify these somewhat opaque questions and spell out why they matter, we turn to the one of the Ten Commandments that tells us to sanctify the Sabbath, the commandment that speaks of time and space: Israel in the here and now of home and village.
Neusner went on to describe how he saw Jesus preaching not just a new Israel, but also a new holy place in Jesus' defense of the disciples' plucking and eating ears of grain on the Sabbath day.
When, therefore, Jesus says that something greater than the Temple is here, he can only mean that he and his disciples may do on the Sabbath what they do because they stand in the place of the priests in the Temple: the holy place has shifted, now being formed by the circle made up of the master and his disciples.
Anyway. I bought the book, because I wanted to see what arguments the 'world's foremost authority on Judaism vs Early Christianity' would make. He didn't misunderstand Jesus at all. The Jesus seen by Neusner said, "I'm God. My disciples are the true kingdom, the true Israel, and the true temple." And that was just too much for him. But he saw that message where most of us unlearned in Judaism usually miss it, in the Gospel written primarily to the Jews.
But all of that to say, that Shapiro's and Neusner's identification of Jews and of Israel appear to be indicative of that of an orthodox Judaism, and it is not Israel™.
*He could not conceive an argument with John's Jesus, because eternal Israel in [the Gospel of] John is treated with unconcealed hatred ...
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No. I trust God. I think God is a god of His word.
He sees that being fulfilled with the coming of Messiah. I see it that way too.
The thing is, Messiah has come. Shapiro missed it. It seems you might have too. I didn't.
Did it? Then why is there still an American Jewry? Or a Jewry anywhere else than in Palestine?