Actuality vs Potentiality?

[Gorship]

JG, you're missing my point.......again. God created them, knowing they were going to die lost.He didn't have to, and yet He did.You can not escape it. That's one of the connudrums in both systems.

I have addressed it 5 times now.

Which one gives them opportunity to be saved.

Calvinism - no
Bible - yes

again

foreknowledge does not imply something is predetermined.

God creates man - Man chooses God or not - Fate is determined
Gods knowledge stretches across this - However did God decide for them?

Calvinism says Yes
I disagree - Man is given a choice - God sees the end - God desires all men to be saved.

The question then becomes which one is Just.

I would say Calvinism is far from Just if Man has no chance to be saved. ever. no matter what.

 

[Iconoclast]

BaptistJG

I agree the God of the bible doesn't - thus im not a Calvinist

You are not a calvinist because you do not understand the teaching at all.Your speaking of God doing something "on a whim" is misguided.

I dont know you tell me as a Calvinist - What justice is creating something to kill it?

This is evil speaking about God and His design.
Adam fell into sin and death. Adam reproduced mankind in his fallen image and likeness.
God warned him ahead of time of the consequence. He rebelled. Now you want to blame God? was God unjust to declare His terms? God destroyed millions with the flood...was that unjust?
A calvinist answers both sides of the issue you seek to get away from.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Im assuming your saying im committing idolatry? I guess I would say the same for a calvinist so we can agree to disagree.

No...I do not agree to disagree. Calvinists will not speak profanely about God.You error greatly in this. You should take care not to take God's name in vain in this.

Your right God doesn't fail - we do. I'm not sure how this is so difficult.

You try and make it difficult not understanding the effects of the fall and God's holy hatred of sin.

"if you say a lie loud enough and long enough the people will believe it"

Your taking 2 pet 3:9 out of context as many do is proof of that.

I agree that Election is Biblical, but not the Calvinistic view of it.

I do not think you can articulate the calvinist view of election , unless you cut and paste from a calvinist source.

- Im sorry you dont appreciate the hard language but im finding Calvinism more and more foolish the more I read reply's and study it out.

You have not shown you have any grasp of the teaching,and yet you speak as it's judge:wavey:

Riddle me this Icon

A women has a child - but doesn't want it - so she kills it and we call that abortion.

a god creates man -but only wants some to come to him - and we call that Calvinism? and that makes god just and holy and pure? Im not so certain.

This post again shows you do not know what the teaching is at all.Read and learn something about it first, then offer why you think it is not biblical.
What you are posting is not accurate at all.
listen.....this highlighted portion.....a god creates man ,but only wants some to come to him......does not reflect calvinism and the wording is horrendous.

a god creates........as if there were many gods????but only wants some to come to him......who says that? All are guilty and condemned! If God has purposed to save only one person that would be His right as creator.
The fact that he has elected a multitude is a great mercy.

I have addressed it 5 times now.

Which one gives them opportunity to be saved.

Calvinism - no
Bible - yes

again

foreknowledge does not imply something is predetermined.

Wrong....29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate

opps...Paul did not share your idea....

to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

[Gorship]

BaptistJG

You are not a calvinist because you do not understand the teaching at all.Your speaking of God doing something "on a whim" is misguided.

Enlighten me then Icon. Fix my supposed ignorance, How does God decide who is elect and who isnt. Do share.

This is evil speaking about God and His design.

No its not - Saying that "For God so loved the world" actually means "for God so loved the select elect" is vomiting on a diamond and saying it looks better.

Adam fell into sin and death. Adam reproduced mankind in his fallen image and likeness.

We fell into a sin nature - I don't agree that we are condemned at Birth - we acquire our own sins. Which we all will due to our sin nature.

God warned him ahead of time of the consequence. He rebelled. Now you want to blame God?

When did I blame God? God was rich in mercy to offer salvation to all those who believe in Him. That is more merciful than Calvinism could ever dream of.

was God unjust to declare His terms? God destroyed millions with the flood...was that unjust?

Nope - they were all sinners - They chose themselves over God again making a choice.

A calvinist answers both sides of the issue you seek to get away from.

Yawn. I just answered you.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Because of unbelief not predetermined fate. Your own verses arn't workin for ya.

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

A warning to take heed. Not just being told whats going to happen.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Do you not see where its saying to follow in Gods goodness.. there are choices involved in this..

No...I do not agree to disagree. Calvinists will not speak profanely about God.You error greatly in this. You should take care not to take God's name in vain in this.

Is this one of those "i know you are but what am i" moments. Cause I feel Calvinists do this exact same thing you accuse me of.

You try and make it difficult not understanding the effects of the fall and God's holy hatred of sin.

Yes God hates sin - where did I deny this?

Your taking 2 pet 3:9 out of context as many do is proof of that.

im sure.

I do not think you can articulate the calvinist view of election , unless you cut and paste from a calvinist source.

Well if you think im so uneducate me - please educate me.

You have not shown you have any grasp of the teaching,and yet you speak as it's judge:wavey:

Alright Icon Ill be waiting for a concise view of election to "blow my views away"

This post again shows you do not know what the teaching is at all.Read and learn something about it first, then offer why you think it is not biblical.
What you are posting is not accurate at all.
listen.....this highlighted portion.....a god creates man ,but only wants some to come to him......does not reflect calvinism and the wording is horrendous.

you can attack my spelling all day long.. im sure my old english teacher appreciates you helping me

a god creates........as if there were many gods????

This was done on purpose - as I dont agree in anyway of this view I used a lower case G and put it in the list with the rest of the bunch that claim to be biblical. Again though - if you feel I know nothing about election please do send me information on it so that I may change my views if you convince me of Calvinism I will be more than happy to write an apology on the board.

but only wants some to come to him......who says that? All are guilty and condemned! If God has purposed to save only one person that would be His right as creator. The fact that he has elected a multitude is a great mercy.

Your right - Knowing that God died for all so that whosoever belief in Him should not perish but have eternal life is AMAZING! Im glad we agree on that - I think all are called to repentance - you say only those who were elected are called.

-- edit --

Your little foreknew - predestined thing

My comment was talking about predetermining a select few of whom would be saved - I don't think this was done that is the picking the people God wants saved, God using His foreknowledge can surely know who those people were - and have a specific plan for them - Yes - but they still had a choice at some point as we all do. Apologies for the confusion; Fingers go faster than my brain.

As per Ro 8:29
- DrJ posted a video on interpreting Romans through the lens of God selecting Israel to be the chosen people. I would align myself in this position. In interpreting Romans.

Icon; there is no doubt you are extremely well versed in what you believe in. I just do not share these things - I am strongly opposed to the idea that God does not want all to be saved and elected certain people not giving the others the chance. If God is willing to elect all people ; I would be more than interested in checking out Calvinism again. Until then it seems to limit Gods redemptive work more than anything.

 

[convicted1]

I have addressed it 5 times now.

Which one gives them opportunity to be saved.

Calvinism - no
Bible - yes

again

foreknowledge does not imply something is predetermined.

God creates man - Man chooses God or not - Fate is determined
Gods knowledge stretches across this - However did God decide for them?

Calvinism says Yes
I disagree - Man is given a choice - God sees the end - God desires all men to be saved.

The question then becomes which one is Just.

I would say Calvinism is far from Just if Man has no chance to be saved. ever. no matter what.

Show me where a sinner has a choce, via the bible. As sinners, we were in spritiual bondage, in prison, if you will. Now, go find someone in prison who can just walk up and ask to be released. They have no other choice than to stay there, unless someone pays their bail. Then, and only then, can they choose to get out of prison. And they will choose to walk out of prison. That's how it was with us, Brother JG. We were in prison, and unless Jesus had paid our bail, we'd still be there. God sets us free, justifies us with the gift of faith(God has chosen to justify the heathen by faith), and then we can freely choose Christ then. Someone locked up has no choice other than to stay locked up until their bail is paid.

I used to be the biggest supporter of free will, but as a sinner, my will was bound up. I ALWAYS chose sin, when I delighted in it. If given the choice of going to church or a bar, I'd choose the bar. Sure, there were times I went to church to appease my parents, but I got nothing out of it. Then God showed me a better way, and drew me to Himself. Jesus came and broke the "yoke of bondage" that satan had on me, that was designed to only constrain me, burden me down, keep me from making a choice for Christ. I couldn't make that choice until Jesus 1st broke that yoke. Faith is what broke that yoke, and faith is a gift of God, and a fruit of the Spirit, so you take it from there. When Jesus broke that yoke, I then fled to Him, seeking His grace, love and mercy. I cried, begged, and pleaded for salvation, and He gave it to me on May 24, 2007 at ~01:30 am(it was a wed. night/thur. morn).


Go into my profile and read some of my previous posts and see how much different I was. I am posting this with much fear, because change is NEVER easy, and I do not want to misrepresent Him whatsoever. I am His forever, and am eternally grateful. Please do not take anything I say as me being hateful. Sometimes, I am afraid that my posts my appear to have the wrong 'tone" to them, and I wish to hurt no one's feelings, especially yours.

 

[Gorship]

Show me where a sinner has a choce, via the bible. As sinners, we were in spritiual bondage, in prison, if you will. Now, go find someone in prison who can just walk up and ask to be released. They have no other choice than to stay there, unless someone pays their bail. Then, and only then, can they choose to get out of prison. And they will choose to walk out of prison. That's how it was with us, Brother JG. We were in prison, and unless Jesus had paid our bail, we'd still be there. God sets us free, justifies us with the gift of faith(God has chosen to justify the heathen by faith), and then we can freely choose Christ then. Someone locked up has no choice other than to stay locked up until their bail is paid.

I used to be the biggest supporter of free will, but as a sinner, my will was bound up. I ALWAYS chose sin, when I delighted in it. If given the choice of going to church or a bar, I'd choose the bar. Sure, there were times I went to church to appease my parents, but I got nothing out of it. Then God showed me a better way, and drew me to Himself. Jesus came and broke the "yoke of bondage" that satan had on me, that was designed to only constrain me, burden me down, keep me from making a choice for Christ. I couldn't make that choice until Jesus 1st broke that yoke. Faith is what broke that yoke, and faith is a gift of God, and a fruit of the Spirit, so you take it from there. When Jesus broke that yoke, I then fled to Him, seeking His grace, love and mercy. I cried, begged, and pleaded for salvation, and He gave it to me on May 24, 2007 at ~01:30 am(it was a wed. night/thur. morn).


Go into my profile and read some of my previous posts and see how much different I was. I am posting this with much fear, because change is NEVER easy, and I do not want to misrepresent Him whatsoever. I am His forever, and am eternally grateful. Please do not take anything I say as me being hateful. Sometimes, I am afraid that my posts my appear to have the wrong 'tone" to them, and I wish to hurt no one's feelings, especially yours.

How many will it take to convince you is my only fear is starting this; However. I will give you two pieces from Paul in the book of acts and romans in his evangelism. After this, I have said all I really have to say on this matter (Im not as fired up anymore after writing a few novels replying to people ) and will move onto other threads, anyway, here you go.

24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

33 So Paul departed from among them.

34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

Actions people made in establishing their faith are bolded.

Romans 10

King James Version (KJV)

10 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above

7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I blued verse 12 as at first Paul is talking about the Jews but then makes it really clear this applies to the Greek (or non-jew) as well.

Bed time -Golf game tomorrow. All the best.

 

[Herald]

Show me where a sinner has a choce, via the bible. As sinners, we were in spritiual bondage, in prison, if you will. Now, go find someone in prison who can just walk up and ask to be released. They have no other choice than to stay there, unless someone pays their bail. Then, and only then, can they choose to get out of prison. And they will choose to walk out of prison. That's how it was with us, Brother JG. We were in prison, and unless Jesus had paid our bail, we'd still be there. God sets us free, justifies us with the gift of faith(God has chosen to justify the heathen by faith), and then we can freely choose Christ then. Someone locked up has no choice other than to stay locked up until their bail is paid.

Brother Willis,

May I add a bit of nuance to what you wrote?

Sinners make choices all the time, and they make those choices freely. What is important to understand is that the sinner makes choices consistent with his nature. We understand from scripture that the sinner is a slave to sin (Rom. 6:20). Just as a slave is obligated to serve his master, the sinner is obligated to serve sin. That does not mean that his unrighteous acts are done under coercion. The sinner freely sins. He sins with full volition. Even when the sinner is not technically committing a sin he is sinning because he is in a state of rebellion against God (1 Jo. 3:4).

While the sinner is unable to effect a change in his spiritual state on his own, he still possesses the knowledge of good and evil. He knows what he is doing is wrong (Rom. 1:32). He is under the command to repent (Acts 17:30). Unfortunately his fallen nature prevents him from repenting (Rom. 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 2:1). God must change the status quo or else the sinner will be forever without hope. That is what we see happen in Ephesians 2:4-9:

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

"But God". God is the subject. He is the One who first takes action. Because of His great love, even when were were dead in our trespasses, He made us alive together with Christ. We do not read here that the sinner did something to change the status quo. God is the One who changed the status quo. He regenerated the sinner. As if to underscore that fact, Paul writes, "And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God". God's changing of the status quo precedes faith. It must precede faith or else the sinner would be lost in sin for eternity, for the sinner lacks the ability to believe apart from God granting it.

 

[convicted1]

How many will it take to convince you is my only fear is starting this; However. I will give you two pieces from Paul in the book of acts and romans in his evangelism. After this, I have said all I really have to say on this matter (Im not as fired up anymore after writing a few novels replying to people ) and will move onto other threads, anyway, here you go.



Actions people made in establishing their faith are bolded.

Paul was addressing pagans here, and the Spirit was moving in some of them, showing them what Paul was preaching about. Some mocked Paul, some said they would hear this again, certain ones clung to him and believed. Why did some mock, some wanted to hear him again, and some claved to him and believed? You dig that out, and you'll get somewhere.

I blued verse 12 as at first Paul is talking about the Jews but then makes it really clear this applies to the Greek (or non-jew) as well.

Look at the ending of verse 12: 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.[/quote]

He is rich to those who call upon Him. Just like it says that He seeks and saves those which are lost. He doesn't go on some "easter egg" hunt and say, "Hey, there's one, and hey's here's another one". He seeks them out and saves them, the ones He is looking for. This has my head kinda spinning seeing this is becoming new to me.

Bed time -Golf game tomorrow. All the best.

Enjoy!!! Fore!!! I used to golf, but haven't in years. I still have a 520 cc driver made by Hippo called "The Beast". It has a yellow shaft and head and a friend of mine said it looked like a "clown's head", and that it looked like a cathead biscuit on the end of a stick. I hit a drive ~265 yards with it one time. I felt like Tiger Woods. I coulddn't hit one probably 50 feet now....LOL

 

[convicted1]

Brother Willis,

May I add a bit of nuance to what you wrote?

Sinners make choices all the time, and they make those choices freely. What is important to understand is that the sinner makes choices consistent with his nature. We understand from scripture that the sinner is a slave to sin (Rom. 6:20). Just as a slave is obligated to serve his master, the sinner is obligated to serve sin. That does not mean that his unrighteous acts are done under coercion. The sinner freely sins. He sins with full volition. Even when the sinner is not technically committing a sin he is sinning because he is in a state of rebellion against God (1 Jo. 3:4).

While the sinner is unable to effect a change in his spiritual state on his own, he still possesses the knowledge of good and evil. He knows what he is doing is wrong (Rom. 1:32). He is under the command to repent (Acts 17:30). Unfortunately his fallen nature prevents him from repenting (Rom. 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 2:1). God must change the status quo or else the sinner will be forever without hope. That is what we see happen in Ephesians 2:4-9:



"But God". God is the subject. He is the One who first takes action. Because of His great love, even when were were dead in our trespasses, He made us alive together with Christ. We do not read here that the sinner did something to change the status quo. God is the One who changed the status quo. He regenerated the sinner. As if to underscore that fact, Paul writes, "And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God". God's changing of the status quo precedes faith. It must precede faith or else the sinner would be lost in sin for eternity, for the sinner lacks the ability to believe apart from God granting it.

Good post, and thanks for the "rod of correction". I was meaning a free choice to serve God, without the work of the Spirit, and I didn't clarify it. Our will has to be changed from "our will", to "Father, thy will be done in our life". We loved sin too much to ever want to do that, as long as we are left to ourself. God changes our desire, by releasing the shackles from us, freeing us to choose Christ. If you're in jail for six months, and someone pays your bail, you'll freely choose to walk out everytime. People, for whatever reason, can't see this is what we're conveying. When you've been in bondage for years, and someone sets you free, you'll freely run to them and thank them. We're not robots as people think, but we're made free, and we freely choose to go to the One who freed us. Praise be to His name!!

 

[convicted1]

lol, never thought of you as wishy washy.

I think part of the problem I have with most of the options is that I could find Scripture that backs them all up and find Scriptures that refute them all.

I'm all for doctrinal purity, but I am not sure we will understand all this until we get to heaven. Until then, I'm going to let God be God, keep preaching the Word and try to help those who have never heard the Gospel hear it.

Very excellent post. This is the crossroads I am at, with the exception of option #3 of Brother 12Strings post. I don't believe I can find any support for the foreseen faith view, because I think they misapply Romans 8:29-32, or somwhere close to that area...

But I am seeking and studying this thing out......

 

[Winman]

You missed my point. God knew before you were created which way you were headed. He knows those who are going to be saved and those who aren't. The foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, God knows them that are His. So, He also knows those who aren't His. He knew this from even before the foundation of the world. Look at it like this. Take one of your closest relatives that you truly adored, who you think died lost. God knew even before the foundation of this world they would die that way, and yet, went ahead and created them anyway. Eventhough He knew they would reject Him, the gospel pleas, the calls of reconciliation, etc., they still died lost. He knew that. Now, how isn't that cruel? Thinking as a himan, that sounds cruel, but the Eternal sovereign God doesn't think as a human, and we can't think like Him.

Willis, have you forgotten what you once plainly understood? That's God's foreknowledge of who will believe does not determine who will believe and who will not? You USED to know this.

When God creates any man, it is not determined whether they will be saved or lost, even if God knows the eventual outcome. That person has their own personal choice of whether they will trust on Jesus.

And would you want it any other way? Would you be born a robot that cannot make a choice?

One word you missed....."us-ward".....the church......

Amazing how you have changed Willis, you sound just like every other Calvinist now.

Sin is sin, anyway you slice it, and God will punish any and all for it. We die naturally because of it, we died spiritually because of it.

And your point is?

Getting back to this. Why isn't it cruel for Him to create people He knows are going to hell even after repeated pleas to be saved? Why can't you call that cruel that they went to hell, He knew it beforehand, and yet made them anyway. How do you not see that as cruel and Him choosing some and passing over the rest is?

Again, God doesn't determine they are going to hell, every single one of these persons could trust Jesus and go to heaven, and if so, that is what God would know in his foreknowledge. You used to understand this, but somehow have forgotten.

Look at it like this. If a young christian married couple wanted to have a child. Now, they had exhaustive foreknowledge and knew beyond any shadow of doubt their child would die eternally lost, would they go ahead and decide to have that child? Probably not. And yet this is the very thing God has done, and is still doing. He knows the fate of all His creation beforehand. Explain how one is cruel and the other isn't. You can't have it both ways.

Well, if it was absolutely determined as Calvinism teaches you are correct. But you have forgotten that God's foreknowledge knows what they will choose. It is perfectly just. There is nothing cruel about it, God is giving them up to their own lusts.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

It is not God's fault men perish Willis, these persons make their own choice. And according to the word of God, they KNOW what choice they are making.

God is simply giving them what they want. It is difficult to believe that some folks would choose death, but that is exactly what they do. Stupid is as stupid does.

 

[Winman]

Please answer this.

In both systems, God created people He knew would die eternally lost, and would suffer eternal torment, correct? Even after all the pleas to be saved, all the witnesses sent their way, all the sermons they heard preached, they still died lost, and Him knowing beforehand they'd die in a perishing condition. How do you not see that as being cruel? God didn't have to create them, but yet He did. He created them, knowing they'd die lost. Thinking as a human, that does sound cruel. But He doesn't think that way.

So, how is it that by Him creating them knowing that regardless what He sent their way to save them, and they would still die lost, not be considered cruel? He didn't have to create them, you know?

So, it would be better never to have existed, never to have life, never to have the choice?

Look Willis, every single one of these persons could choose life and choose Jesus. It is the deterministic model that is cruel.

It is amazing, you NOW believe that God has created billions of people that he will never give the chance to be saved. These persons did not choose to be born sinners, they were born sinners because of the poor choice someone else made thousands of years ago. Now, these persons are born with a nature that MUST sin. Everything they do is sin, not by choice, but by the very nature they were created with.

Why Willis, these persons are not criminals that deserve punishment if this is true, they are VICTIMS. They are like a baby that is born addicted to crack because his mother chose to use illegal drugs.

So, NOW you are calling a God that gives every man the chance to be saved cruel, and NOW you believe that a God that creates billions of men to be sinners (without their choice or consent) and never gives them a chance to be saved is just.

Wow, Calvinism is the most insidious doctrine ever, it can overthrow the rational mind.

 

[Winman]

Good post, and thanks for the "rod of correction". I was meaning a free choice to serve God, without the work of the Spirit, and I didn't clarify it. Our will has to be changed from "our will", to "Father, thy will be done in our life". We loved sin too much to ever want to do that, as long as we are left to ourself. God changes our desire, by releasing the shackles from us, freeing us to choose Christ. If you're in jail for six months, and someone pays your bail, you'll freely choose to walk out everytime. People, for whatever reason, can't see this is what we're conveying. When you've been in bondage for years, and someone sets you free, you'll freely run to them and thank them. We're not robots as people think, but we're made free, and we freely choose to go to the One who freed us. Praise be to His name!!

How do you explain Cornelius then Willis? He was not saved, and he did not have the Spirit, and yet he was devout and prayed always, and he did good works that God recognized. In fact, God sent an angel especially to him to tell him how to be saved.

Do you now believe he was regenerated as the Calvinists teach? How can a man without the Holy Spirit be regenerated? I would LOVE to hear this explanation.

Now, I am not saying he was not influenced by God, he certainly was. This man was not born a Jew, so obviously somewhere along the line he heard the word of God and believed it, and willingly chose to serve the true God. He did what he believed God wanted him to do, pray and do good works. Obviously God recognized that he was sincere, and this is why God sent an angel to him to tell him how to be saved.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Cornelius was neither saved nor had the Spirit, yet he feared God and worked righteousness.

How do you explain that? Perhaps Total Inability is FALSE???

And doesn't Acts 10:35 completely refute Unconditional Election??

 

[kyredneck]

Then why doesn't Peter just use ELECT instead of ANY. "God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL SHOULD COME to repentance". I see you skipped right over THAT part where I showed all 5 uses of this term in the Bible, NONE of which fit the Calvie interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Pet 3:9

Peter was the apostle to the Jews and the 'longsuffering to you-ward' is the forty years God gave the Jews to repent and avoid 'the wrath to come' upon that generation and bringing the curses/plagues of Lev 26/Dt 28 down upon their progeny. 'I gave her time that she should repent; and she willeth not to repent' Re 2:21.


'Not wishing that any should perish' is in the same vein as Acts 2:40:

And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation.

Or Acts 3:23:

And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.

Or Rev 18:4:

Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:

 

[kyredneck]

How do you explain Cornelius then Willis?

Ro 2:13-15-the epitome.

He was not saved,

If by ‘saved’ you mean ‘conversion’, then yes, you are correct. Cornelius had not yet converted.

If by ‘saved’ you mean ‘regenerated’, then no, you are quite wrong, and neither do you have the power to see the heart, but one can see the fruit that comes from within. Cornelius BEFORE hearing the gospel and prior to coming to Christ:

a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, who gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always. Acts 10:2

It is evident the law was already in his heart [Ro 2:13-15], God had already wrought within him [Jn 3:21].

and he did not have the Spirit, and yet he was devout and prayed always, and he did good works that God recognized. In fact, God sent an angel especially to him to tell him how to be saved.

Do you now believe he was regenerated as the Calvinists teach? How can a man without the Holy Spirit be regenerated? I would LOVE to hear this explanation.

You are wrong (as always) to confuse the birth of the Spirit with the indwelling of the Spirit, the two are not the same. Indwelling/filling/baptism/gift of/sealed with, NOT the same as Jn 3:8 or Gal 4:29. And you have heard the explanation, yet you keep espousing the same old wearisome error.

Now, I am not saying he was not influenced by God, he certainly was. This man was not born a Jew, so obviously somewhere along the line he heard the word of God and believed it, and willingly chose to serve the true God. He did what he believed God wanted him to do, pray and do good works. Obviously God recognized that he was sincere, and this is why God sent an angel to him to tell him how to be saved.

Again, he is the epitome of Ro 2:13-15, because Cornelius did ‘by nature’ the things of the law he showed that the law was written upon his heart - read ‘born of the Spirit’.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

As in there is no distinction between Gentile and Jew.

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

As in Ps 87, Gal 4:26-28; Cornelius was ‘born from above’, a child of the heavenly Zion, a true blue real Jew.

Cornelius was neither saved nor had the Spirit, yet he feared God and worked righteousness.

Again, you do not have the power to see the heart, but one can see the fruit that comes from within. Cornelius is also the epitome of Jn 3:21:

But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God.

God had already wrought within Cornelius to do the truth and he came to the light to show his works had been wrought in God.

How do you explain that? Perhaps Total Inability is FALSE???

It was the law written upon his heart that enabled Cornelius 'to do by nature the things of the law'. He was a true blue real Jew, circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands.

And doesn't Acts 10:35 completely refute Unconditional Election??

No, it actually refutes hardline restrictivism and affirms direct regeneration

 

[webdog]

Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission. If they hadn't slain the lamb or goat, there wouldn't have been any blood to put upon the doorpost to begin with. But, please expound further........

Not sure what you are looking for clarification on. The blood was the payment. The application was faith.

You are now looking at this whole thing with an emotional view. You cannot discount justice. Justice demands punishment to the accused. Your prison analogy is faulty as you put yourself there, you weren't created there. If you were please explain how a just judge condemns you for something you had no control over.

 

[Winman]

Ro 2:13-15-the epitome.

That's funny, these are the very scriptures I've argued for several years that refute Total Inability. Now you agree with me.

If by ‘saved’ you mean ‘conversion’, then yes, you are correct. Cornelius had not yet converted.

He had not believed on Jesus, therefore he was dead in trespasses and sins. We are justified by faith in Jesus Christ.

If by ‘saved’ you mean ‘regenerated’, then no, you are quite wrong, and neither do you have the power to see the heart, but one can see the fruit that comes from within. Cornelius BEFORE hearing the gospel and prior to coming to Christ:

No man can be regenerated and not saved. To be regenerated literally means to be "alive again", and no man can be alive again until he is forgiven all his sins. That is what a man is "saved" from, his sins.

a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, who gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always. Acts 10:2

It is evident the law was already in his heart [Ro 2:13-15], God had already wrought within him [Jn 3:21].

The law is written on every man's heart and conscience, that is why all men are guilty before God, because even without a written law all men know they have sinned against God.

You are wrong (as always) to confuse the birth of the Spirit with the indwelling of the Spirit, the two are not the same. Indwelling/filling/baptism/gift of/sealed with, NOT the same as Jn 3:8 or Gal 4:29. And you have heard the explanation, yet you keep espousing the same old wearisome error.

You have not one word of scripture to support this view.

Again, he is the epitome of Ro 2:13-15, because Cornelius did ‘by nature’ the things of the law he showed that the law was written upon his heart - read ‘born of the Spirit’.

Again, you are refuting Total Inability as I have been saying for years here.

You are wrong that the law written on the heart equals being born again, else Cornelius would not have needed to hear the gospel and be saved.

As in there is no distinction between Gentile and Jew.

Nevertheless, Peter said those that fear God and work righteousness are ACCEPTED with him, showing election is CONDITIONAL.

As in Ps 87, Gal 4:26-28; Cornelius was ‘born from above’, a child of the heavenly Zion, a true blue real Jew.

No, otherwise he would not have needed to hear the gospel and be saved. You still don't get that we are "saved" from our sins.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Again, you do not have the power to see the heart, but one can see the fruit that comes from within. Cornelius is also the epitome of Jn 3:21:

But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God.

God had already wrought within Cornelius to do the truth and he came to the light to show his works had been wrought in God.

I perfectly agree that God influenced Cornelius, I have never said that any man can be saved apart from God's grace. Cornelius had to hear of the true God to worship him.

It was the law written upon his heart that enabled Cornelius 'to do by nature the things of the law'. He was a true blue real Jew, circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands.

Paul said "the Gentiles" do by nature the things contained in the law because they have the law written on their hearts and are a law to themselves. All men have the law written on their hearts. You don't get it, this scripture refutes Total Inability.

No, it actually refutes hardline restrictivism and affirms direct regeneration

Again, no man can be regenerated or spiritually alive until he trusts on Jesus and has his sins forgiven. Until Cornelius trusted Jesus he was dead in trespasses and sins, yet he had the ability to worship God and obey him when he commanded him to send for Peter, just as Adam and Eve had the ability to come to God when he called them in the garden, even though they had just sinned and were dead in sin.

You guys have to create a false regeneration to support your false doctrine of Total Inability. One false doctrine leads to another.

 

[kyredneck]

That's funny, these are the very scriptures I've argued for several years that refute Total Inability. Now you agree with me.

How so? Ro 2 clearly shows that it is 'the law written upon the heart' and the 'circumcision of the heart' that enables one to stand in the judgment:

6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh:
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2

It absolutely requires a supernatural change of heart for one to live by 'patience in well-doing'.

Cornelius was a true blue bonafide Jew.

 

[Winman]

How so? Ro 2 clearly shows that it is 'the law written upon the heart' and the 'circumcision of the heart' that enables one to stand in the judgment:

6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh:
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2

It absolutely requires a supernatural change of heart for one to live by 'patience in well-doing'.

Total Inability teaches that man by nature is unable to do anything pleasing to God, but Romans 2:14-15 teaches that the Gentiles who did not have the law DO BY NATURE THE THINGS CONTAINED IN THE LAW, showing that the law is written on their hearts and conscience. That absolutely refutes Total Inability.

As for regeneration, you completely redefine the word. Regeneration literally means to be "alive again". Well, why is a person dead? A person is dead because they have sinned and the wages or penalty of sin is death.

As long as you remain in your sins you cannot possibly be spiritually alive, because it is sin that causes you to be spiritually dead.

And when we say the term "saved", what are we saying we are saved from? Why, our sins! Jesus came to save his people from their sins as I just quoted you.

So, "regeneration" and being "saved" are the exact same thing. It means a person is washed clean and forgiven all their sins and is now "alive again".

You attempt to redefine the word regeneration, but it won't work. You cannot be saved or alive again until your sins are forgiven, and you cannot be forgiven until you first believe, therefore men have the ability to believe before they are alive again or regenerated.

 

[kyredneck]

Total Inability teaches that man by nature is unable to do anything pleasing to God, but Romans 2:14-15 teaches that the Gentiles who did not have the law DO BY NATURE THE THINGS CONTAINED IN THE LAW, showing that the law is written on their hearts and conscience. That absolutely refutes Total Inability.

It does not say written on their conscience, it's written on their hearts. The conscience part of it is this:

14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

For our glorifying is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in holiness and sincerity of God, not in fleshly wisdom but in the grace of God, we behaved ourselves in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward. 2 Cor 1:12

having a good conscience; that, wherein ye are spoken against, they may be put to shame who revile your good manner of life in Christ. 1 Pet 3:16

Herein I also exercise myself to have a conscience void of offence toward God and men always. Acts 24:16

Wherefore ye must needs be in subjection, not only because of the wrath, but also for conscience` sake. Ro 13:5

One who lives by 'patience in well-doing' can indeed have 'a conscience void of offense towards God and man'.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Quote:
This thread frightens me. The grand difference between Baptist soteriology and Calvinism comes to a forefront right here.
The difference is about those who trust God and obey ,and those who invent a god who does what they want him to do.

That says it all!:thumbs: