Silverhair
Well-Known Member
We seem to give each other those gentle reminders which is a good thing, you would someone had a hand in it.
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AD 66 – Definitive Date of Preterism
- Thread starter asterisktom
- Start date
We seem to give each other those gentle reminders which is a good thing, you would someone had a hand in it.
At least we agree on salvation, but my view on the falsehood of preterism is based upon careful study os Scripture & history, while your view that it's true is based upon the writings of several quax such as Gentry. You cannot get past Jesus' saying He'd return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the great trib. If it's already occurred, how come Jesus isn't now physically here, ruling the world? How could Nero have been the beast when he ws never in Jerusalem to enter the temple, and he died, rather than being cast alive into hell ? There are simply too many unanswered questions for preterism to be true.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
And my view on the falsehood of the futurist view is based upon careful study of Scripture and history, while yours is based on false interpretations of Scripture. I don't want to rehash our differences again. I have found the answers to those preterism questions, and I am fully convinced of the accuracy of this view. I trust Gentry, DeMar, etc because they correctly teach what Jesus taught.
37818
Well-Known Member
There are futurist views. Only Revelation [about 96AD] and John's Gospel account were written after 70AD. My view is pre wrath, post trib, pre millennium.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
How do you get pre wrath, post trib to work together?
37818
Well-Known Member
Well there is one event. Takes place after the tribulation Matthew 24:29-31 and before God's stated wrath, Revelation 6:12-17. And there are a number of other passages, one being 1 Thessalonians 1:10.
A similular view:
https://www.amazon.com/Post-Trib-Pre-Wrath-Rapture-Abridged-ebook/dp/B00JOYUYFY
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Interesting view but I do not think that is what we find in the bible. But this has never been high on my list. I do not plan to be here for it anyway. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
Lodic
Well-Known Member
As a Preterist, I firmly believe the entire New Testament - including Revelation, Gospel of John, and his Epistles - were written prior to AD 70. Still, when it comes down to it, our views of the "End Times" are secondary issues. It's good to study, and we should know why we believe our particular view. However, we shouldn't let secondary views distract us from our primary focus - leading the lost to Christ, and helping our brothers & sisters in Christ mature in the Faith.
37818
Well-Known Member
I have had that understanding since about 1969. BTW there is absolutely no Scripture which actually teaches pre trib rapture. Anyway it is another discussion.
37818
Well-Known Member
The issue is then why the late 95-96AD date for the book of the Revelation? The reason or evidence for that late date needs to be given and shown that it is not really possible.
Robert Young says it's a 'stupid mistake' by Sulpicius Severus and repeated by others that has resulted in a domino effect of bad information down through the centuries concerning the dating of Revelation:
"It was written in Patmos about A.D.68, whither John had been banished by Domitius Nero, as stated in the title of the Syriac version of the Book; and with this concurs the express statement of Irenaeus (A.D.175), who says it happened in the reign of Domitianou, ie., Domitius (Nero). Sulpicius Severus, Orosius, &c., stupidly mistaking Domitianou for Domitianikos, supposed Irenaeus to refer to Domitian, A.D. 95, and most succeeding writers have fallen into the same blunder. The internal testimony is wholly in favor of the earlier date." (Concise Critical Comments on the Holy Bible, by Robert Young.”
Sir, when I asked you to name the beast, you gave the nonsense anser, "Nero". Now, you know Scripture states the beast & false prophet will be cast alive into hell, and we all know from history that Nero died, and how he died. And you said the FP was the nation of Israel. Obviously, Israel wasn't cast alive into hell. How can you still believe the pret garbage after knowing those facts?
And you CANNOT get past the fact that Jesus said He'd return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the great trib, and even YOU admit His return is still future.
No, you've been deceived by Gentry, DeMar, & other similar quax.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
Agreed. People try to give evidence for a late date writing, but that evidence is weak at best, and relies heavily on external evidence. Those who believe the early date is correct rely on the ton of internal evidence within the book of Revelation itself. The "early date" authorship hurts the "cause" of those who believe the events point to the future. It's a type of confirmation bias.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
I CAN and I HAVE gotten past the fact that Jesus did return IMMEDIATELY after the Great Tribulation. As I've explained many times, He "came" in judgment. That doesn't change the fact that the 2nd Coming is still future.
You don't have any new arguments, so you revert back to accusing me of being deceived by Gentry, DeMar, etc. You take the attitude that you have studied Scripture and history, but I must not have. You couldn't be further from the truth. I have no doubt that you have studied extensively, but so have I. We have come to different conclusions from our studies. Sure, I've read material from Preterist authors, but I agree with them after I studied to Scripture to determine whether they were right.
First, Jesus NEVER mentioned TWO returns. The only one He mentioned was the parousia. He caused the Romans to execute His judgments upon the Jews to fulfill the "days of vengeance" He decreed against them.
And again, He describes the parousia to come IMMEDIATELY AFTER the great trib. You've been deceived by those quack pret authors. You need to study ACTUAL HISTORY a lot closer.
37818
Well-Known Member
The best I could find.
The two dates, 95 AD and 65 AD.
Domitian 95 AD. Under Domitian claimed from as early the 2nd century.
Nero 65 AD. Under Nero claimed from the early 6th century.
Source: The Date of the Book of Revelation – Christopher L. Scott
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Speaking of confirmation bias.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
This was a post I made in reply to the question
Is the Re-Emergence of the modern nation of Israel fulfillment of Bible prophecy?
God made a number of eternal promises to Israel but the restoration of the State of Israel in 1948 dos not seem to be one of them.
From what I have read it would seem that all the references re Israel being in the land, renewed, called back from other lands etc. point to a time during or after Jacob's trouble.
God has not forgotten Israel nor turned away from her but Israel has turned away from God. Israel does not, at this time, name Jesus as their Messiah and King.
Gen 17:7-8 ..an everlasting covenant, .. all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession;
Isa 59:20-21 this is My covenant with them,” says the LORD ...“from now and forever.“
Jer 23:5-8 days are coming," .. "When I will raise up for David a righteous Branch; ... "In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell securely; ...who brought up and led back the descendants of the household of Israel from the north land and from all the countries where I had driven them.' Then they will live on their own soil."
Some have taken the words “Then they will live on their own soil.” as the State of Israel. But this does not work as Israel does not now dwell securely in their land. This is speaking of a time yet future.
Jesus will make a covenant with Israel after they have placed their faith in Him as their Messiah. This will only happen during the tribulation times.
Jer 31:31-34 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, ...for they will all know Me, ...for I will forgive their iniquity,
The birth of the State of Israel while it is something that, IMHO, was directed by God I do not see it as a fulfillment of prophecy. Israel has returned to their land a number of times and we should not use this one {1948} as a time marker for the return of Jesus the Christ.
Mar 13:32 "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
Is the Re-Emergence of the modern nation of Israel fulfillment of Bible prophecy?
God made a number of eternal promises to Israel but the restoration of the State of Israel in 1948 dos not seem to be one of them.
From what I have read it would seem that all the references re Israel being in the land, renewed, called back from other lands etc. point to a time during or after Jacob's trouble.
God has not forgotten Israel nor turned away from her but Israel has turned away from God. Israel does not, at this time, name Jesus as their Messiah and King.
Gen 17:7-8 ..an everlasting covenant, .. all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession;
Isa 59:20-21 this is My covenant with them,” says the LORD ...“from now and forever.“
Jer 23:5-8 days are coming," .. "When I will raise up for David a righteous Branch; ... "In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell securely; ...who brought up and led back the descendants of the household of Israel from the north land and from all the countries where I had driven them.' Then they will live on their own soil."
Some have taken the words “Then they will live on their own soil.” as the State of Israel. But this does not work as Israel does not now dwell securely in their land. This is speaking of a time yet future.
Jesus will make a covenant with Israel after they have placed their faith in Him as their Messiah. This will only happen during the tribulation times.
Jer 31:31-34 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, ...for they will all know Me, ...for I will forgive their iniquity,
The birth of the State of Israel while it is something that, IMHO, was directed by God I do not see it as a fulfillment of prophecy. Israel has returned to their land a number of times and we should not use this one {1948} as a time marker for the return of Jesus the Christ.
Mar 13:32 "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
Right - Jesus never mentioned two comings. In Matthew 24:30, Jesus told His disciples that "the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man arriving on the clouds of heaven". This does not say that Christ came back at that time, but they would see a sign. A sign is not the same thing as the object the sign points toward. What will it take to show you that this is not the 2nd Coming? The Days of Vengeance were the judgment Jesus spoke of in the Olivet Discourse.
You are wasting your time by just repeating your claim that Gentry, DeMar, et al are quacks. You have made your views very plain, but you do not provide support for your argument. All you have ever done is present your opinion. Gentry, et al provide plenty of support from Scripture and from the history of the Jewish Wars to convince the reader with an open mind that the Olivet Discourse and most of Revelation point to the end of the Old Covenant age, and not to the literal end of the world.
You will probably never agree, and I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince you. Your mind is made up, but recognize that my mind is also made up. I write for the benefit of those who are willing to take an objective look for themselves.
The only Israelis now known are the Jews, who consist of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. But the others arehere. They don't know their true ancestral national ID. But God said He will make Judah & Israel one nation again. So, that event is still future.