Adam and certain death

[Zaatar71]

I have had the pleasure of discussing Christ's work of redemotion over a through threads with several members. I appreciate their time and effort in expressing their views. One thing that struck me, however, and I found very strange was their opinion of my position. @Brightfame52 considers my positiin unbiblical. @Zaatar71 thinks my view is noth unbiblical and new. @Piper 2 considers it "wierd" and "garbage", stating that those on another site he follows makes it.

All of that is perfectly fine with me. I do not demand other people think as I do, or insist others say I am correct. What I find as strange is the fact that I never told them my view, nor did they ask.

As people were gracious enough to put their belief out there, I thought that I would as well. It may be "unbiblical" to many oeople, and thats OK because I am not asking people to adopt my view. I believe we should examine aa many views as possible and test them against God's Word. Eat the meat and spit out the bones.

Anyway, here is a short summary of my position on the topic we had been discussing (it isn't all inclusive, just what I could quickly summerize):


God created Adam (man) from the dust, planted a Garden and placed Adam there. God commanded Adam not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (Gen 2). God told Adam that in the day he ate of the fruit death would be certain (Gen 2:17).

Where does it say..death would be certain? If we go by "what is written..It says;17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Did he die that day? That is what is written!

Through Adam’s sin death entered the world and spread to all man, for all have sinned Rom 5:12)

Did all men die in Adam? or only after they personally sinned?

The wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23), for sin produces death (James 1:15). Death spread to all because all have sinned (Romans 5:12).

Was original sin the cause of all spiritual death? Are men conceived spiritually dead?

 

[JonC]

Good questions, @Zaatar71

Where does it say..death would be certain? If we go by "what is written..It says;17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Did he die that day? That is what is written!

Genesis 217. "But from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will certainly die.” In the day you eat of it you will certainly die" (not "you will die on that day). The source uses בְּי֛וֹם (age, life, day, days, years). תָּמֽוּת (death), and מ֥וֹת (the physical cessation of life, the power or realm of death). In that day death would be certain. God emphasises this in the next chaoter eith "for dust you are and to dust you will return).

Did all men die in Adam? or only after they personally sinned?

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

No, original sin is not the cause of "spiritual death".

1 Cor 15:45-48. The first man, Adam, became a living person.” The last Adam was a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second Man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy one, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly One, so also are those who are heavenly.

Man was created flesh, a living person, natural man. The second man (Jesus) is a life giving Spirit. Natural man is "spiritually dead", but do mot "die spiritually" (natural man lacks spiritual life and needs to be born of the Spirit).

Yes, natural man is by definition "spiritually dead", in need of spiritual life. First the natural, then the spiritual.

 

[Zaatar71]

Good questions, @Zaatar71


Genesis 217. "But from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will certainly die.” In the day you eat of it you will certainly die" (not "you will die on that day). The source uses בְּי֛וֹם (age, life, day, days, years). תָּמֽוּת (death), and מ֥וֹת (the physical cessation of life, the power or realm of death). In that day death would be certain. God emphasises this in the next chaoter eith "for dust you are and to dust you will return).


1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

No, original sin is not the cause of "spiritual death".

1 Cor 15:45-48. The first man, Adam, became a living person.” The last Adam was a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second Man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy one, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly One, so also are those who are heavenly.

Man was created flesh, a living person, natural man. The second man (Jesus) is a life giving Spirit. Natural man is "spiritually dead", but do mot "die spiritually" (natural man lacks spiritual life and needs to be born of the Spirit).

Yes, natural man is by definition "spiritually dead", in need of spiritual life. First the natural, then the spiritual.

Virtually every translation says in that die, you will certainly die.
YLT
and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'
Something died that day. Thank you for openly denying spiritual death. Thank you for openly denying the total effects of Adam's sin. Thank you for not going by what was written. 1cor15 is off the topic.
Denying the origin of spiritual death, looks to be a clear denial of scripture, but thanks for expressing your opinion, and theory.

I believe scripture; watch here;8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

 

[JonC]

Virtually every translation says in that die, you will certainly die.
YLT
and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'
Something died that day. Thank you for openly denying spiritual death. Thank you for openly denying the total effects of Adam's sin. Thank you for not going by what was written. 1cor15 is off the topic.
Denying the origin of spiritual death, looks to be a clear denial of scripture, but thanks for expressing your opinion, and theory.

I believe scripture; watch here;8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Yes, virtually every English translation says "in (or on) the day youveat of the tree you shall certainly (or surely) die".

"for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”(RSV)
"for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (KJV)
"for when you eat from it you will certainly die" (NIV)
"for when you eat from it you will certainly die" (NASB)
"for when you eat from it you will certainly die" (NET)
"for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” (OJB...orthodox Jewish bible)
"for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” (RGT...Revised Geneva Translation)

My point is no translation says "you will die on the day you eat of it"

On the day you eat of it you will surely die.

I believe Scripture here. On the day Adam ate if the fruit death became certain (he would surely die...return to the dust from which he was made).

I am not denying that natural man is spiritually dead (Paul made this very clear when he referred to Adam as the natural which comes before the Spitrital).

But I am denying that man can have spiritual life and then die spiritually.

This means I am also denying that the Second death is spiritual death (that the lost will spiritually die, as they are already spiritually dead).

 

[Zaatar71]

My point is no translation says "you will die on the day you eat of it"

No translation says, He died ON That day,let's look
KJ21
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it. For in the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die.”
ASV
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
AMP
but [only] from the tree of the knowledge (recognition) of good and evil you shall not eat, otherwise on the day that you eat from it, you shall most certainly die [because of your disobedience].”
AMPC
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and blessing and calamity you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.
BRG
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
CSB
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for on the day you eat from it, you will certainly die.”
CSBA
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for on the day you eat from it, you will certainly die.’
CEB
but don’t eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, because on the day you eat from it, you will die!”
CJB
except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You are not to eat from it, because on the day that you eat from it, it will become certain that you will die.”
CEV
except the one that has the power to let you know the difference between right and wrong. If you eat any fruit from that tree, you will die before the day is over!”
DARBY
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest of it thou shalt certainly die.
DRA
But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death.
ERV
But you must not eat from the tree that gives knowledge about good and evil. If you eat fruit from that tree, on that day you will certainly die!”
EASY
But you must not eat any fruit from the tree that gives knowledge of good and evil. If you do eat fruit from that tree, that day you will certainly die.’
EHV
but you shall not eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, for on the day that you eat from it, you will certainly die.”
ESV
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

 

[Zaatar71]

pt2;
except the one that has the power to let you know the difference between right and wrong. If you eat any fruit from that tree, you will die before the day is over!”
DARBY
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest of it thou shalt certainly die.
DRA
But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death.
ERV
But you must not eat from the tree that gives knowledge about good and evil. If you eat fruit from that tree, on that day you will certainly die!”
EASY
But you must not eat any fruit from the tree that gives knowledge of good and evil. If you do eat fruit from that tree, that day you will certainly die.’
EHV
but you shall not eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, for on the day that you eat from it, you will certainly die.”
ESV
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
ESVUK
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
EXB
but you must not eat the fruit from the tree ·which gives the [T of the] knowledge of good and evil [C eating from this tree would make Adam, not God, the determiner of right and wrong]. If you ever eat fruit from that tree, you will [L certainly] die!”
GNV
But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt die the death.
GW
But you must never eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because when you eat from it, you will certainly die.”
GNT
except the tree that gives knowledge of what is good and what is bad. You must not eat the fruit of that tree; if you do, you will die the same day.”
HCSB
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for on the day you eat from it, you will certainly die.”
ICB
But you must not eat the fruit from the tree which gives the knowledge of good and evil. If you ever eat fruit from that tree, you will die!”
ISV
but you are not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, because you will certainly die during the day that you eat from it.”
JUB
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou dost eat of it thou shalt surely die.
KJV
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
AKJV
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
LSB
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat from it; for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”
LEB
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die.”

MSG
God commanded the Man, “You can eat from any tree in the garden, except from the Tree-of-Knowledge-of-Good-and-Evil. Don’t eat from it. The moment you eat from that tree, you’re dead.”
MEV
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”
NOG
But you must never eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because when you eat from it, you will certainly die.”
NABRE
except the tree of knowledge of good and evil. From that tree you shall not eat; when you eat from it you shall die.
NASB
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for on the day that you eat from it you will certainly die.”
NASB1995
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

 

[Zaatar71]

NCB
but you must never eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you were to eat from it, you would surely die.”
NCV
but you must not eat the fruit from the tree which gives the knowledge of good and evil. If you ever eat fruit from that tree, you will die!”
NET
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will surely die.”
NIRV
But you must not eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you do, you will certainly die.”
NIV
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
NIVUK
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.’
NKJV
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
NLV
But do not eat from the tree of learning of good and bad. For the day you eat from it you will die for sure.”
NLT
except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat its fruit, you are sure to die.”
NRSVA
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.’
NRSVACE
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.’
NRSVCE
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.”
NRSVUE
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.”
OJB
But of the Etz HaDa’as Tov v’Rah, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the yom that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
RGT
“But from the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat. For on the day that you eat of it, you shall surely die.”
RSV
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.”
RSVCE
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.”
TLV
But of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you must not eat. For when you eat from it, you most assuredly will die!
VOICE
I only require that you abstain from eating the fruit of one tree—the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Beware: the day you eat the fruit of this tree, you will certainly die.
WEB
but you shall not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”
WYC
forsooth eat thou not of the tree of knowing of good and of evil; for in whatever day thou shalt eat thereof, thou shalt die by death. (but thou shalt not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for on the day that thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die.)
YLT
and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

 

[Zaatar71]

I believe what is written ,in scripture;13 The son of Geber, in Ramothgilead; to him pertained the towns of Jair the son of Manasseh, which are in Gilead; to him also pertained the region of Argob, which is in Bashan, threescore great cities with walls and brasen bars:
I believe in "what is written" again see this!7 Thus hath the Lord God shewed unto me; and, behold, he formed grasshoppers in the beginning of the shooting up of the latter growth; and, lo, it was the latter growth after the king's mowings.

 

[JonC]

Yes...EXACTLY. No translation says that Adam would die on that day. They ALL say that death would be certain when (when, in that day, or on that day).

In the day you eat of the fruit you will certainly die.

I believe what is written ,in scripture;13 The son of Geber, in Ramothgilead; to him pertained the towns of Jair the son of Manasseh, which are in Gilead; to him also pertained the region of Argob, which is in Bashan, threescore great cities with walls and brasen bars:
I believe in "what is written" again see this!7 Thus hath the Lord God shewed unto me; and, behold, he formed grasshoppers in the beginning of the shooting up of the latter growth; and, lo, it was the latter growth after the king's mowings.

No, you are re-wording Scripture.

On the day (or age) you eat of it you will certainly die.

Death woukd be certain.

You are reading it like "you will certainly die on the day that you eat the fruit".

I seriously doubt you see the difference. But God's statement describing this death (to dust you shall return) abd Oaul's insistence that Adam was natural man which comes before the spiritual) should have been big enough clues to at least get you to re-examine the verse.

 

[Charlie24]

Where does it say..death would be certain? If we go by "what is written..It says;17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Did he die that day? That is what is written!

Did all men die in Adam? or only after they personally sinned?

Was original sin the cause of all spiritual death? Are men conceived spiritually dead?

I don't expect you to agree with anything I say.

Physical death is the separation of soul from the body.

Spiritual death is the separation of the soul from God.

When God told Adam he would die if he disobeyed by eating from a certain tree, Adam ate and physically died almost a century later.

But after they sinned they hid from God when they heard His voice.

They had no more fellowship with God, they fell from innocence (not knowing good nor evil) and were spiritually dead.

Paul said that sin is not imputed where there is no Law, But Adam and Eve's sins were imputed, God had directly told them, "Thou shalt not..."

 

[JesusFan]

Good questions, @Zaatar71


Genesis 217. "But from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will certainly die.” In the day you eat of it you will certainly die" (not "you will die on that day). The source uses בְּי֛וֹם (age, life, day, days, years). תָּמֽוּת (death), and מ֥וֹת (the physical cessation of life, the power or realm of death). In that day death would be certain. God emphasises this in the next chaoter eith "for dust you are and to dust you will return).


1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

No, original sin is not the cause of "spiritual death".

1 Cor 15:45-48. The first man, Adam, became a living person.” The last Adam was a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second Man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy one, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly One, so also are those who are heavenly.

Man was created flesh, a living person, natural man. The second man (Jesus) is a life giving Spirit. Natural man is "spiritually dead", but do mot "die spiritually" (natural man lacks spiritual life and needs to be born of the Spirit).

Yes, natural man is by definition "spiritually dead", in need of spiritual life. First the natural, then the spiritual.

Adam and Eve were created with spiritual and physical life, and in the Fall, that aspect of them that was spiritually alive to God died, and all save Jesus have been born into Adam and under His fall, so received his spiritual death

Yes...EXACTLY. No translation says that Adam would die on that day. They ALL say that death would be certain when (when, in that day, or on that day).

In the day you eat of the fruit you will certainly die.

No, you are re-wording Scripture.

On the day (or age) you eat of it you will certainly die.

Death woukd be certain.

You are reading it like "you will certainly die on the day that you eat the fruit".

I seriously doubt you see the difference. But God's statement describing this death (to dust you shall return) abd Oaul's insistence that Adam was natural man which comes before the spiritual) should have been big enough clues to at least get you to re-examine the verse.

Adam was spiritual and physically alive when was created, and both aspects were cursed and affected by the Fall, and we also experience both deaths due to His original Sin

I don't expect you to agree with anything I say.

Physical death is the separation of soul from the body.

Spiritual death is the separation of the soul from God.

When God told Adam he would die if he disobeyed by eating from a certain tree, Adam ate and physically died almost a century later.

But after they sinned they hid from God when they heard His voice.

They had no more fellowship with God, they fell from innocence (not knowing good nor evil) and were spiritually dead.

Paul said that sin is not imputed where there is no Law, But Adam and Eve's sins were imputed, God had directly told them, "Thou shalt not..."

And due to their original Sin and the Fall, all of us were born under same spiritual and physical death situation

 

[Charlie24]

And due to their original Sin and the Fall, all of us were born under same spiritual and physical death situation

That I agree, but an infant child although born in sin, is innocent until they become as Adam and Eve who were innocent and then knowing what they were doing, disobeyed God.

 

[JesusFan]

That I agree, but an infant child although born in sin, is innocent until they become as Adam and Eve who were innocent and then knowing what they were doing, disobeyed God.

Would say that they are still guilty as being in Adam judged as a lost sinner, but that God can and does apply the saving grace of the Cross towards them

 

[Charlie24]

Would say that they are still guilty as being in Adam judged as a lost sinner, but that God can and does apply the saving grace of the Cross towards them

The Scripture says we are born in sin, not that we are born sinners. There's a difference.

 

[JonC]

Adam was spiritual and physically alive when was created, and both aspects were cursed and affected by the Fall, and we also experience both deaths due to His original Sin

Not according to God's Word as given through Paul. Paul says Adam was alive but "natural" and not spiritual.

Do you have a passage stating that or are you just repeating Catholic Doctrine?

Adam was spiritual and physically alive when was created, and both aspects were cursed and affected by the Fall, and we also experience both deaths due to His original Sin

You already said this.

And I gave you Scrioture that says otherwise.

Let's compare the two passages (yours and mine) and work it out.

What verse are you reading that says Adam was spiritually alive and then died spiritually?

 

[JonC]

The Scripture says we are born in sin, not that we are born sinners. There's a difference.

Some of the argument against this comes from Catholic Doctrine (Augustine's use of a mistranslation of Romans 5:12, where the Vulgate rendered the word ἐφ᾽ ᾧ (because) as "in whom".

This has been corrected in translations, but that tradition remains.

Even though they have no verse to quote as the error has been corrected in all English translations, the doctrine had already been established in the Catholic Church. They view all men as having sinned in Adam.

This is especially true with the Presbyterian denomination (and Reformed Baptists due to that influence) because they carried over quite a lot of Roman Catholic doctrine (some of it in a reformed version).

Over the years here I have learned that when you tackle tradition with Scripture, tradition will always win. Online forums generally attract people who want to fight for their ideas rather than discuss, examine, and evaluate them against God's Word.

 

[Charlie24]

Some of the argument against this comes from Catholic Doctrine (Augustine's use of a mistranslation of Romans 5:12, where the Vulgate rendered the word ἐφ᾽ ᾧ (because) as "in whom".

This has been corrected in translations, but that tradition remains.

Even though they have no verse to quote as the error has been corrected in all English translations, the doctrine had already been established in the Catholic Church. They view all men as having sinned in Adam.

This is especially true with the Presbyterian denomination (and Reformed Baptists due to that influence) because they carried over quite a lot of Roman Catholic doctrine (some of it in a reformed version).

Over the years here I have learned that when you tackle tradition with Scripture, tradition will always win. Online forums generally attract people who want to fight for their ideas rather than discuss, examine, and evaluate them against God's Word.

I didn't know those specific details, I'm continuously learning something here!

 

[JonC]

I didn't know those specific details, I'm continuously learning something here!

I as well.

Theology was just something that interested me. But, on a related but not to this thread side note, this influenced their (the Catholic) view of atonement.

Ignore the following if you find it boring (I am bored, at work, passing time.

Since we all sinned with Adam (that mistranslation) we all inherit original sin. Baptism (usually infant baotism) washes away this original sin. Our sins (the ones we commit) must be settled through confession and penance.

Punishment is a moral good (justice) for sins. Therefore God, as the ultimate Judge, punishes sins. Jesus died for our sins, but He could not be punished for our sins because that would not be just (the punishment couldn't be the punishment due the crime, but a satisfactory punishment to clear the criminal). However, He could suffer a satisfactory punishment in our place (the punishment just couldn't be for our sins). An innocent man can justly take upon himself a penalty that satisfies the judge instead of the guilty man being punished for a crime as long as all parties are willing.

It is kinda nuts, but remember this came about in the 13th century. We'd all be kinda nuts if we lived back then....no TV and all.

Anyway, this was the doctrine that Calvin reformed. But when we reform or revise things a lot of the original remains. That idea that we sinned with Adam rather than, say. "in" him (representative substitution....a representing of the human race reflecting the whole) remained in tradition.


Anyway....if you made it that far, sorry to have bored you. I just find it interesting.

 

[Charlie24]

I as well.

Theology was just something that interested me. But, on a related but not to this thread side note, this influenced their (the Catholic) view of atonement.

Ignore the following if you find it boring (I am bored, at work, passing time.

Since we all sinned with Adam (that mistranslation) we all inherit original sin. Baptism (usually infant baotism) washes away this original sin. Our sins (the ones we commit) must be settled through confession and penance.

Punishment is a moral good (justice) for sins. Therefore God, as the ultimate Judge, punishes sins. Jesus died for our sins, but He could not be punished for our sins because that would not be just (the punishment couldn't be the punishment due the crime, but a satisfactory punishment to clear the criminal). However, He could suffer a satisfactory punishment in our place (the punishment just couldn't be for our sins). An innocent man can justly take upon himself a penalty that satisfies the judge instead of the guilty man being punished for a crime as long as all parties are willing.

It is kinda nuts, but remember this came about in the 13th century. We'd all be kinda nuts if we lived back then....no TV and all.

Anyway, this was the doctrine that Calvin reformed. But when we reform or revise things a lot of the original remains. That idea that we sinned with Adam rather than, say. "in" him (representative substitution....a representing of the human race reflecting the whole) remained in tradition.


Anyway....if you made it that far, sorry to have bored you. I just find it interesting.

Definitely not bored with it, theology has been my interest as far back as I can remember as a child.

I don't believe that we sinned with Adam, but I do believe that Christ bore our sins and took the punishment we deserved.

I once heard a preacher ask the congregation (I was there) why did Christ die such a horrible death after nearly being beaten to death.

He was actually looking for someone to speak up, but no one did.

He said that His punishment was as wide as the sin of man. he suffered horribly for the most horrible sins of man.

I was a young man at that time and it broke my heart, because I knew inside me it was true, that Christ loved us that much.

 

[Zaatar71]

I don't expect you to agree with anything I say.

Not so, I do agree several times, watch,

Physical death is the separation of soul from the body.

Yes,agreed

Spiritual death is the separation of the soul from God.

yes ,agreed, as in Isa.59:
59 Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

When God told Adam he would die if he disobeyed by eating from a certain tree, Adam ate and physically died almost a century later.

But God said in the day you eat, you will die. Something died that very day as God said it would....He did not say some other day you will die, he said in the day you eat, you will die.
Yes Charlie I agree, but what happened to his spirit? Did he stay in communion with God, just like before he sinned, or did he die spiritually that day, as the text says, dying, thou shalt surely die.? In other words.. When does Spiritual death happen?

But after they sinned they hid from God when they heard His voice.

Agreed, because they were alienated from the life of God, the fellowship they had in their original righteousness.

They had no more fellowship with God,

Yes, agreed...God had to "cover them" but the damage was already done, Spiritual death had taken place, but they still had physical life for years.

they fell from innocence (not knowing good nor evil) and were spiritually dead.

Exactly what I have said spread over three threads now...so you see we agree on this! We might not agree on other things, but as you see we can agree.

Paul said that sin is not imputed where there is no Law, But Adam and Eve's sins were imputed, God had directly told them, "Thou shalt not..."

You are on it Charlie!