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Adam represented all men and Christ represented...who exactly?

ReformedBaptist

Well-Known Member
You have the ability to skip threads and not respond to things that don't interest you, or do you? :) I'm studying up on the subject for some research I'm doing and this gets my juices flowing and sharpens me to think through all avenues of this topic. If you don't like it, don't read it. You won't hurt my feelings.

Sounds like I have. I understand the interest in the subject. As one who also went down the road you are going, obviously in a different direction or to a different conclusion, my advice to you is keep your focus on Christ Jesus and not be too focused on controversy.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Sounds like I have.
You haven't. I do think its a bit rude for someone hijack a thread because you think someone is consumed with a topic especially when that someone has a avatar named for his Dogma and over twice the number of posts on the subject. A case of the pot calling the kettle black, maybe?
I understand the interest in the subject. As one who also went down the road you are going, obviously in a different direction or to a different conclusion, my advice to you is keep your focus on Christ Jesus and not be too focused on controversy.
Amen and amen. :wavey:
 

ReformedBaptist

Well-Known Member
You haven't. I do think its a bit rude for someone hijack a thread because you think someone is consumed with a topic especially when that someone has a avatar named for his Dogma and over twice the number of posts on the subject. A case of the pot calling the kettle black, maybe?

Amen and amen. :wavey:

An avatar is an image, so if a screaming baby with a photoshopped army helmet with the caption 'Incoming' means Calvinism to you....HAHAHAHA

Really, that gave me a chuckle.

It is true that I have commented on this subject alot. Interesting that your counting my posts....weird actually.

But in any case, it goes to my point. It is something I have focused on in the past..alot. My advice to you is that it can be a distraction from a simple devotion to Christ.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
It is true that I have commented on this subject alot. Interesting that your counting my posts....weird actually.
Don't fatter yourself. It says "3000 post club" under your name.


But in any case, it goes to my point. It is something I have focused on in the past..alot. My advice to you is that it can be a distraction from a simple devotion to Christ.
Same here. You could look at my history here in the archives and see that I spent a lot of time on this, but haven't been here in years. Like I said, I'm sharpening my iron for this subject. I agree that we should never lose our devotion, after all nothing else really matters except faith expressing itself through love.
 

ReformedBaptist

Well-Known Member
Don't fatter yourself. It says "3000 post club" under your name.


Same here. You could look at my history here in the archives and see that I spent a lot of time on this, but haven't been here in years. Like I said, I'm sharpening my iron for this subject. I agree that we should never lose our devotion, after all nothing else really matters except faith expressing itself through love.

I am really trying not to get any fatter. HAHAHA

I just have more to say than you do...but I thought you were saying that I focused on Calvinism twice as much as you. I hope that is not the case, but if so..how revealing!

It is a debate forum and this is a hot topic. Since it is your focus now, and your needing some ammo for whomever poor soul your going after with your sharpened daggers, I will be honored to take up the debate with you.
 

Winman

Active Member
Gotta get in on this. I may live in Connecticut, but I am a North Carolina "tarheel" by birth. I lived there for my first 10 years when my family moved to Florida. But it was northern Florida where all the Southerners live, not down where all the Yankees live.

But I hold nothing against Yankees, six of my eight children were born north of the Mason Dixon line.

And speaking of manly, I am very proud of being a tarheel. That was a nickname that came from the Civil War.

According to the book Histories of the Several Regiments from North Carolina in the Great War, the name resulted from a joke, or insult. During a particular battle, North Carolina troops held their ground while other troops retreated. Afterward, some of the other soldiers asked the troops from North Carolina if there was any more tar down in the old north state. They said, "No, not a bit; old Jeff’s bought it all up." When asked what he was going to do with it, they replied, "He is going to put it on you'ns heels to make you stick better in the next fight."

Now maybe you understand why I am so stubborn and keep fighting with you Cals.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Now maybe you understand why I am so stubborn and keep fighting with you Cals.

But why fight with your brothers and sisters in Christ? I believe in the doctrine of grace but that has no effect on my witnessing. I will continue to stand for Christ in an unsaved world and pray that in whatever way Christ decides to do it, that there might be some saved and that He might be so gracious as to use me to do so. Why do some refuse Christ? What is it to me? But I will be faithful in what I'm commanded to do and that is all I can do. It's not up to me to go "soul winning" - but instead to tell others of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

What good is it to go fighting with your brothers and sisters in Christ when there is a world heading to hell? I'd say you're fighting the wrong fight.
 

Winman

Active Member
But why fight with your brothers and sisters in Christ? I believe in the doctrine of grace but that has no effect on my witnessing. I will continue to stand for Christ in an unsaved world and pray that in whatever way Christ decides to do it, that there might be some saved and that He might be so gracious as to use me to do so. Why do some refuse Christ? What is it to me? But I will be faithful in what I'm commanded to do and that is all I can do. It's not up to me to go "soul winning" - but instead to tell others of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

What good is it to go fighting with your brothers and sisters in Christ when there is a world heading to hell? I'd say you're fighting the wrong fight.

Because the scriptures say contend for the faith.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.


Here Paul speaks of men who brought in false doctrine telling the believers in Galatia they had to be circumcised to be saved. And notice Paul said he did not submit to them even for one hour.

This is why I argue and debate. I believe Calvinism to be major error. And I don't just say it, I constantly show scripture you can examine for yourself to support my position. Those who differ in belief from me could easily challange my understanding and interpretation of the scriptures but never do. Why? If your doctrine is so sound, it sould be easy to prove by scripture. It should also be easy to prove me in error.

But I am not just going to sit back and let people teach what I believe to be error to others.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Because the scriptures say contend for the faith.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.


Here Paul speaks of men who brought in false doctrine telling the believers in Galatia they had to be circumcised to be saved. And notice Paul said he did not submit to them even for one hour.

This is why I argue and debate. I believe Calvinism to be major error. And I don't just say it, I constantly show scripture you can examine for yourself to support my position. Those who differ in belief from me could easily challange my understanding and interpretation of the scriptures but never do. Why? If your doctrine is so sound, it sould be easy to prove by scripture. It should also be easy to prove me in error.

But I am not just going to sit back and let people teach what I believe to be error to others.

What you see as a grave error has been taught and believed by many great men of God. Do you believe that they were unsaved? Do you believe that they followed a cult? We're talking Whitefield, Spurgeon, Bunyan, Fuller, Manly, Boyce, and Edwards.
 

Winman

Active Member
What you see as a grave error has been taught and believed by many great men of God. Do you believe that they were unsaved? Do you believe that they followed a cult? We're talking Whitefield, Spurgeon, Bunyan, Fuller, Manly, Boyce, and Edwards.

Well, if they believe the doctrines of Calvinism I have seen here, and they agree with those doctrines, then I believe them to be in serious error. Just because they are famous and well known does not make their doctrine sound. The Catholics could give you a list of dozens of what they consider great teachers of their faith. The Catholics know their names just as well as you know these Calvinists. Being well known and respected does not mean their doctrine was sound.

The Mormons would say Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were great men of God. Were they?

The Jehovah's Witness would say Charles Taze Russell, Joseph Franklin Rutherford, and Nathan H. Knorr were all great men of God. Were they?

As far as anybody being saved or not, I cannot possibly say that. Only God is the Judge, I will leave it to Him who judges righteously. That is none of my business. I try not to go there.

A person can be saved and be in error. Truth be known, I doubt any Christian anywhere is 100% correct on all doctrine. But that does not mean serious error cannot be known and easily refuted from scripture.

And that is the case with Calvinism, it can easily be shown to be error, there are literally hundreds of scriptures that contradict it. An example:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

This verse clearly says a man hears the gospel, then believes it, and only after believing receives the Holy Ghost. This clearly teaches unsaved man has the ability to hear, understand, and believe the gospel, and upon doing so receives the Holy Spirit.

But Calvinism teaches the exact opposite. Calvinism teaches man receives the Holy Ghost first, then is enabled to have faith and the desire to hear the gospel. But there is not one verse in all the scriptures that shows this.

Another example from Acts 2

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


What does this passage show? It shows first these men heard God's word and were convicted (not regenerated). Then Peter tells them they must repent and turn from unbelief and trust Christ for forgiveness of sins. Then Peter tells them if they do this they will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Now, this fits Eph 1:13 perfectly, but absolutely contradicts the teachings of Calvinism.

So, I am not just saying Calvinists are in error and then not showing why as they often do with me. No, I am giving you scripture you can look up in your Bible and examine for yourself. If you think I have misinterpreted the scriptures, you are free to tell me why. I can handle that.

But just because someone is a famous preacher or writer is meaningless. Many famous preachers and writers are heretics.
 
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annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
This verse clearly says a man hears the gospel, then believes it, and only after believing receives the Holy Ghost. This clearly teaches unsaved man has the ability to hear, understand, and believe the gospel, and upon doing so receives the Holy Spirit.

But Calvinism teaches the exact opposite. Calvinism teaches man receives the Holy Ghost first, then is enabled to have faith and the desire to hear the gospel. But there is not one verse in all the scriptures that shows this.

Another example from Acts 2

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


What does this passage show? It shows first these men heard God's word and were convicted (not regenerated). Then Peter tells them they must repent and turn from unbelief and trust Christ for forgiveness of sins. Then Peter tells them if they do this they will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Now, this fits Eph 1:13 perfectly, but absolutely contradicts the teachings of Calvinism.

I see the issue here. You do not know the teachings of the doctrine of grace.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Well then, please educate me.

Although I most likely will be castigated for doing so and labeled a cult follower, I wish to use someone else's words because, honestly, I have a boat load of things to do today and cannot take the time to put this in my own words. I've been ill since Christmas and my house is a disaster (to put it mildly) and I am having company tomorrow. So if you would humor me, I think this would best explain the reformed's position on regeneration.

B. The Exact Nature of Regeneration Is Mysterious to Us
Exactly what happens in regeneration is mysterious to us. We know that somehow we who were spiritually dead (Eph. 2:1) have been made alive to God and in a very real sense we have been “born again” (John 3:3, 7; Eph. 2:5; Col. 2:13). But we don’t understand how this happens or what exactly God does to us to give us this new spiritual life. Jesus says, “The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with every one who is born of the Spirit” (John 3:8).
Scripture views regeneration as something that affects us as whole persons. Of course, our “spirits are alive” to God after regeneration (Rom. 8:10), but that is simply because we as whole persons are affected by regeneration. It is not just that our spirits were dead before—we were dead to God in trespasses and sins (see Eph. 2:1). And it is not correct to say that the only thing that happens in regeneration is that our spirits are made alive (as some would teach),5 for every part of us is affected by regeneration: “If any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come” (2 Cor. 5:17).
Because regeneration is a work of God within us in which he gives us new life it is right to conclude that it is an instantaneous event. It happens only once. At one moment we are spiritually dead, and then at the next moment we have new spiritual life from God. Nevertheless, we do not always know exactly when this instantaneous change occurs. Especially for children growing up in a Christian home, or for people who attend an evangelical church or Bible study over a period of time and grow gradually in their understanding of the gospel, there may not be a dramatic crisis with a radical change of behavior from “hardened sinner” to “holy saint,” but there will be an instantaneous change nonetheless, when God through the Holy Spirit, in an unseen, invisible way, awakens spiritual life within. The change will become evident over time in patterns of behavior and desires that are pleasing to God.
In other cases (in fact, probably most cases when adults become Christians) regeneration takes place at a clearly recognizable time at which the person realizes that previously he or she was separated from God and spiritually dead, but immediately afterward there was clearly new spiritual life within. The results can usually be seen at once—a heartfelt trusting in Christ for salvation, an assurance of sins forgiven, a desire to read the Bible and pray (and a sense that these are meaningful spiritual activities), a delight in worship, a desire for Christian fellowship, a sincere desire to be obedient to God’s Word in Scripture, and a desire to tell others about Christ. People may say something like this: “I don’t know exactly what happened, but before that moment I did not trust in Christ for salvation. I was still wondering and questioning in my mind. But after that moment I realized that I did trust in Christ and he was my Savior. Something happened in my heart.”6 Yet even in these cases we are not quite sure exactly what has happened in our hearts. It is just as Jesus said with respect to the wind—we hear its sound and we see the result, but we cannot actually see the wind itself. So it is with the working of the Holy Spirit in our hearts.

C. In This Sense of “Regeneration,” It Comes Before Saving Faith
Using the verses quoted above, we have defined regeneration to be the act of God awakening spiritual life within us, bringing us from spiritual death to spiritual life. On this definition, it is natural to understand that regeneration comes before saving faith. It is in fact this work of God that gives us the spiritual ability to respond to God in faith. However, when we say that it comes “before” saving faith, it is important to remember that they usually come so close together that it will ordinarily seem to us that they are happening at the same time. As God addresses the effective call of the gospel to us, he regenerates us and we respond in faith and repentance to this call. So from our perspective it is hard to tell any difference in time, especially because regeneration is a spiritual work that we cannot perceive with our eyes or even understand with our minds.
Yet there are several passages that tell us that this secret, hidden work of God in our spirits does in fact come before we respond to God in saving faith (though often it may be only seconds before we respond). When talking about regeneration with Nicodemus, Jesus said, “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” (John 3:5). Now we enter the kingdom of God when we become Christians at conversion. But Jesus says that we have to be born “of the Spirit” before we can do that.7 Our inability to come to Christ on our own, without an initial work of God within us, is also emphasized when Jesus says, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him” (John 6:44), and “No one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father” (John 6:65). This inward act of regeneration is described beautifully when Luke says of Lydia, “The Lord opened her heart to give heed to what was said by Paul” (Acts 16:14). First the Lord opened her heart, then she was able to give heed to Paul’s preaching and to respond in faith.
By contrast, Paul tells us, “The man without the Spirit (literally, the “natural man”) does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned” (1 Cor. 2:14 NIV). He also says of people apart from Christ, “no one understands, No one seeks for God” (Rom. 3:11).
The solution to this spiritual deadness and inability to respond only comes when God gives us new life within. “But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses made us alive together with Christ” (Eph. 2:4–5). Paul also says, “When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ” (Col. 2:13 NIV).8
The idea that regeneration comes before saving faith is not always understood by evangelicals today. Sometimes people will even say something like, “If you believe in Christ as your Savior, then (after you believe) you will be born again.” But Scripture itself never says anything like that. This new birth is viewed by Scripture as something that God does within us in order to enable us to believe.
The reason that evangelicals often think that regeneration comes after saving faith is that they see the results (love for God and his Word, and turning from sin) after people come to faith, and they think that regeneration must therefore have come after saving faith. Yet here we must decide on the basis of what Scripture tells us, because regeneration itself is not something we see or know about directly: “The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with every one who is born of the Spirit” (John 3:8).
Because Christians often tend to focus on the results of regeneration, rather than the hidden spiritual act of God itself, some evangelical statements of faith have contained wording that suggests that regeneration comes after saving faith. So, for example, the statement of faith of the Evangelical Free Church of America (which has been adapted by a number of other evangelical organizations) says,
We believe that the true Church is composed of all such persons who through saving faith in Jesus Christ have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and are united together in the body of Christ of which He is the Head. (paragraph 8)
Here the word “regeneration” apparently means the outward evidence of regeneration that is seen in a changed life, evidence that certainly does come after saving faith. Thus “being born again” is thought of not in terms of the initial impartation of new life, but in terms of the total life change that results from that impartation. If the term “regeneration” is understood in this way, then it would be true that regeneration comes after saving faith.
Nevertheless, if we are to use language that closely conforms to the actual wording of Scripture, it would be better to restrict the word “regeneration” to the instantaneous, initial work of God in which he imparts spiritual life to us. Then we can emphasize that we do not see regeneration itself but only the results of it in our lives, and that faith in Christ for salvation is the first result that we see. In fact, we can never know that we have been regenerated until we come to faith in Christ, for that is the outward evidence of this hidden, inward work of God. Once we do come to saving faith in Christ, we know that we have been born again.
By way of application, we should realize that the explanation of the gospel message in Scripture does not take the form of a command, “Be born again and you will be saved,” but rather, “Believe in Jesus Christ and you will be saved.”9 This is the consistent pattern in the preaching of the gospel throughout the book of Acts, and also in the descriptions of the gospel given in the Epistles.

from http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/regeneration_grudem.html
 

zrs6v4

Member
Well, if they believe the doctrines of Calvinism I have seen here, and they agree with those doctrines, then I believe them to be in serious error. Just because they are famous and well known does not make their doctrine sound. The Catholics could give you a list of dozens of what they consider great teachers of their faith. The Catholics know their names just as well as you know these Calvinists. Being well known and respected does not mean their doctrine was sound.

The Mormons would say Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were great men of God. Were they?

The Jehovah's Witness would say Charles Taze Russell, Joseph Franklin Rutherford, and Nathan H. Knorr were all great men of God. Were they?

As far as anybody being saved or not, I cannot possibly say that. Only God is the Judge, I will leave it to Him who judges righteously. That is none of my business. I try not to go there.

A person can be saved and be in error. Truth be known, I doubt any Christian anywhere is 100% correct on all doctrine. But that does not mean serious error cannot be known and easily refuted from scripture.

And that is the case with Calvinism, it can easily be shown to be error, there are literally hundreds of scriptures that contradict it. An example:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

This verse clearly says a man hears the gospel, then believes it, and only after believing receives the Holy Ghost. This clearly teaches unsaved man has the ability to hear, understand, and believe the gospel, and upon doing so receives the Holy Spirit.

But Calvinism teaches the exact opposite. Calvinism teaches man receives the Holy Ghost first, then is enabled to have faith and the desire to hear the gospel. But there is not one verse in all the scriptures that shows this.

Another example from Acts 2

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


What does this passage show? It shows first these men heard God's word and were convicted (not regenerated). Then Peter tells them they must repent and turn from unbelief and trust Christ for forgiveness of sins. Then Peter tells them if they do this they will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Now, this fits Eph 1:13 perfectly, but absolutely contradicts the teachings of Calvinism.

So, I am not just saying Calvinists are in error and then not showing why as they often do with me. No, I am giving you scripture you can look up in your Bible and examine for yourself. If you think I have misinterpreted the scriptures, you are free to tell me why. I can handle that.

But just because someone is a famous preacher or writer is meaningless. Many famous preachers and writers are heretics.

Winman, I am still working out a few very minor details with Calvinism that dont change the major details such as election and initiation by God in His sovereign grace. I highly disagree with you on your approach to Scripture. You seem to not look at Scripture as a whole in its large context and miss minor details that change everything. It is very simple to miss the flow or style of writing that was written in a culture 2,000 years ago. We could sit on here all day and I can give you texts such as Romans 9:11-12 that you will have to justify in some weird way. Instead of just quoting Ephesians 1:13 why not break down Ephesians 1:1-14 where it shows that God elects people according to His will. Your Acts 2 verse is a perfect example of what I have tried to tell you in numerous posts.

you quoted: Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


The problem is you left the interpretation to those two verses and forgot the very next verse that shows sovereign grace with the human choice.

Acts:2:39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

This verse does not imply that God calls everyone internally, but that the offer is to all externally (Jews and Gentiles) and those who respond are the ones God has internally called. Those who God internally calls will respond. I clearly showed this in the book of John and will do it again if you want.

The only way to get around this verse is to try and read it differently which isnt being honest. Anyone can twist verses and at times and Im sure we all are guilty of not being honest students.

If you want to grab Romans 9:10-12, Jude 1:4, and Ephesians 1:1-14, we can start there.
 
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