Adam's Death and Person

[The Biblicist]

Did Jesus die spiritually?

Jesus is not mere man and so can't be compared to son's of Adam. He was not born of the seed of man, but the seed of the woman so "death" did not "pass" down to him. No man could take his life, he gave it. When considering Jesus we recognizde he is ONE person but with TWO natures that cannot be mixed together as one nature but cannot be separated from one person. No sin could be found in him, and he did no sin but he did BECOME SIN on the cross when our sins were legally imputed to him and the Father separated his fellowship from the HUMAN Jesus because he became LEGALLY SIN by imputation. At no time did he possess a SIN NATURE thus at no time was he ever in a SPIRITUAL CONDITION OF DEATH. He LEGALLY, POSITIONALLY became sin.

But the unique one of kind Son of God cannot free your from your problems with COMMON man and death.

 

[Yeshua1]

In a thread that is now closed, we discussed the realities concerning the narrative in Genesis 1-3.

I brought up what Paul said concerning Adam and Christ and the nature of the Resurrection and said I would bring in more context to show Adam was alive physically, but not spiritually. Another aspect of that was to show Adam's death was physical.

This is the passage I want to focus on for a second...

1 Corinthians 15:21-22 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also came through a man.
For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Paul says physical death came through man. Not Spiritual death.

Context sheds more light...

1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy to be eliminated is death.

Physical death.

Then Paul answers the question how are they raised and what Kind of Body will they get?

It's my understanding that when Paul speaks of Body--he means entire being...body, soul, and spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 Now may the God of peace himself make you completely holy and may your spirit and soul and body be kept entirely blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Romans 12:1 Therefore I exhort you, brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a sacrifice – alive, holy, and pleasing to God – which is your reasonable service.

So upon the Resurrection of the dead, we will receive what Christ is...a glorified person in Body Soul and Spirit.

1 John 3:2 Dear friends, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that whenever it is revealed we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is.

So, we must see what Paul says about that...

1 Corinthians 15:44-49 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Let me cut to the chase, everyone can read for themselves...

Adam was given a natural body, soul, spirit. In Christ through the Resurrection, we receive a glorified body, soul, and Spirit.

Look at Vs. 49!

Adam's image was not simply a physical body. His IMAGE would have to mean body, soul and spirit. We took on the same image he had and then we will take on the same image Christ has...a glorified body, soul, and spirit. Adam's image was natural and earthly. Yes, God made him physically alive and gave him characteristics of God, making Adam only in the image of God to a certain degree. And we see here we will bear the image of Christ. A spiritually alive person as Christ is!!!

I must continue...

1 Corinthians 15:54-57 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

He's talking physical death here.

Paul even says "I'm in danger of dying daily" so if there was no resurrection my ministry is not worth dying for.

Adam and Eve had no need of the Mediator/Messiah until the fall, so before their sinning, had to have spiritual life, as were in relationship with holy God!

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus is not mere man and so can't be compared to son's of Adam. He was not born of the seed of man, but the seed of the woman so "death" did not "pass" down to him. No man could take his life, he gave it. When considering Jesus we recognizde he is ONE person but with TWO natures that cannot be mixed together as one nature but cannot be separated from one person. No sin could be found in him, and he did no sin but he did BECOME SIN on the cross when our sins were legally imputed to him and the Father separated his fellowship from the HUMAN Jesus because he became LEGALLY SIN by imputation.

But the unique one of kind Son of God cannot free your from your problems with COMMON man and death.

There is a great Mystery to me of how the sinless Son of God could also at same time be made sin for us, and you explained it well here!

 

[The Biblicist]

Adam and Eve had no need of the Mediator/Messiah until the fall, so before their sinning, had to have spiritual life, as were in relationship with holy God!

They don't understand the scope of meaning for either "death" or "life." He had the life of God directly infused into his being from God's being and it was manifest in his "upright" moral condition although it was a mutable condition.

 

[Yeshua1]

They don't understand the scope of meaning for either "death" or "life." He had the life of God directly infused into his being from God's being and it was manifest in his "upright" moral condition although it was a mutable condition.

If you miss the mark on this issue, basically denying the Pauline Justification laid out concerning the first and the second Adam, pretty much mess up your theology big time!

 

[loDebar]

Jesus is not mere man and so can't be compared to son's of Adam. He was not born of the seed of man, but the seed of the woman so "death" did not "pass" down to him. No man could take his life, he gave it. When considering Jesus we recognizde he is ONE person but with TWO natures that cannot be mixed together as one nature but cannot be separated from one person. No sin could be found in him, and he did no sin but he did BECOME SIN on the cross when our sins were legally imputed to him and the Father separated his fellowship from the HUMAN Jesus because he became LEGALLY SIN by imputation. At no time did he possess a SIN NATURE thus at no time was he ever in a SPIRITUAL CONDITION OF DEATH. He LEGALLY, POSITIONALLY became sin.

But the unique one of kind Son of God cannot free your from your problems with COMMON man and death.

Spiritual death is separation from God and He did suffer this as God, He suffered physical death as man,

We do too, spiritual death as a sinful condemned being and physical death as a man.

 

[The Biblicist]

Spiritual death is separation from God and He did suffer this as God,

No, he did not suffer this "as God" because God is immutable and the triune Godhead exists in an immutable union as one God. Furthermore, God never sinned, and sin cannot be imputed to God.

He suffered physical death as man,

His human nature is makes it possible for him to be a representative for man. He was made sin in his capacity as a HUMAN REPRESENTATIVE.

 

[loDebar]

No, he did not suffer this "as God" because God is immutable and the triune Godhead exists in an immutable union as one God. Furthermore, God never sinned, and sin cannot be imputed to God.


His human nature is makes it possible for him to be a representative for man. He was made sin in his capacity as a HUMAN REPRESENTATIVE.

He was God who took the penalty or you are not saved.

Here shows the separation that one who is eternal can be separated from the Holy Father.
Mat 27:46
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

He became Sin
2Co 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Bodies do not sin only , sin is of the spirit or soul.

Eze 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Jesus said We can sin in our heart without our bodies

Mat 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

As a human we can share in His death as was the plan

Heb 2:14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

 

[The Biblicist]

He was God who took the penalty or you are not saved.


;

You can't deify his humanity nor can you humanize his deity.

 

[The Biblicist]

He was God who took the penalty or you are not saved.

Here shows the separation that one who is eternal can be separated from the Holy Father.
Mat 27:46
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

He became Sin
2Co 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Bodies do not sin only , sin is of the spirit or soul.

Eze 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Jesus said We can sin in our heart without our bodies

Mat 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

As a human we can share in His death as was the plan

Heb 2:14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Divinity is omnipresent. When Jesus was speaking to Niocodemus he told him that he was present in heaven when speaking to him (Jn. 3:9-11). Your view requires the Divinity of Christ merely to separate his fellowship with his humanity as that is the only possible way Jesus could be separated from God, since being God himself.

 

[percho]

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. James 1:13-15

Did that apply to Adam?
Was Adam drawn away of his own lust and enticed, for the fruit of the tree?

Consider: And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. Gen 3:6

 

[loDebar]

You can't deify his humanity nor can you humanize his deity.

I am doing neither, He was 100% God to pay for sin, He was 100% man so we can share in His death.

He took sin upon Himself and Did take that penalty and was separated from the God head because of Sin.
God is unity yet separable as shown as different persons.
The Godhead was not on the cross, as you suggest but Jesus alone

 

[The Biblicist]

I am doing neither, He was 100% God to pay for sin, He was 100% man so we can share in His death.

He took sin upon Himself and Did take that penalty and was separated from the God head because of Sin.
God is unity yet separable as shown as different persons.
The Godhead was not on the cross, as you suggest but Jesus alone

Go back and study the doctrine of the Trinity because you obviously don't have any true depth in your understanding of it. Look at the orthodox summary of it and you will see the historic belief is that there is one indivisible divine substance manifested in three distinct Persons. The Persons can be distinguished from each other but the substance is indivisible. Your theory repudiates the historic Christian understanding of the Trinity as you are not only demanding the divine substance is divided at the cross, but your theory demands that the deity of Christ was separated from his humanity.

The true doctrine is that his deity enabled his suffering as a man to satisfy an eternal penalty while his humanity provided both the righteousness and penalty to be satisfied. He became sin in no other sense but LEGALLY and by IMPUTATION never literally or by nature.

 

[loDebar]

Go back and study the doctrine of the Trinity because you obviously don't have any true depth in your understanding of it. Look at the orthodox summary of it and you will see the historic belief is that there is one indivisible divine substance manifested in three distinct Persons. The Persons can be distinguished from each other but the substance is indivisible. Your theory repudiates the historic Christian understanding of the Trinity as you are not only demanding the divine substance is divided at the cross, but your theory demands that the deity of Christ was separated from his humanity.

The true doctrine is that his deity enabled his suffering as a man to satisfy an eternal penalty while his humanity provided both the righteousness and penalty to be satisfied. He became sin in no other sense but LEGALLY and by IMPUTATION never literally or by nature.

Jesus was still GOD on the Cross, He had to be to take the penalty for His creation of sin, He was separated from A Holy Godhead because He became sin. One human death could not satisfy the debt of sin, but God could. A creator suffered the penalty for the creation.

You doctrine was prevalent in earlier times similar to Modalistic Monarchianism except you add the a human death is sufficient ( the I John 5:7 controversy was added or explained for this reason) The Godhead was not on the Cross, Jesus was alone . The separability of the God Head is crucial when one considers the Holiness of God and rejection of sin. The entire problem we are in.

 

[MB]

Go back and study the doctrine of the Trinity because you obviously don't have any true depth in your understanding of it. Look at the orthodox summary of it and you will see the historic belief is that there is one indivisible divine substance manifested in three distinct Persons. The Persons can be distinguished from each other but the substance is indivisible. Your theory repudiates the historic Christian understanding of the Trinity as you are not only demanding the divine substance is divided at the cross, but your theory demands that the deity of Christ was separated from his humanity.

The true doctrine is that his deity enabled his suffering as a man to satisfy an eternal penalty while his humanity provided both the righteousness and penalty to be satisfied. He became sin in no other sense but LEGALLY and by IMPUTATION never literally or by nature.

.

It seems to me you are separating Christ from the crucifixion. By separating His Spirit from His body. If Christ Spirit wasn't entirely there on that Cross during the crucifixion we are all doomed to hell In fact He gave up His spirit and died on that Cross. No one killed Christ He gave up His Spirit to God the Father
MB

 

[The Biblicist]

.

It seems to me you are separating Christ from the crucifixion. By separating His Spirit from His body. If Christ Spirit wasn't entirely there on that Cross during the crucifixion we are all doomed to hell In fact He gave up His spirit and died on that Cross. No one killed Christ He gave up His Spirit to God the Father
MB

No, I am arguing for the very opposite. The Person of Christ was on the cross. I am just saying you cannot separate the Deity of Christ from the Godhead as they share one inseparable substance even though distinguishable by three Persons.

 

[loDebar]

No, I am arguing for the very opposite. The Person of Christ was on the cross. I am just saying you cannot separate the Deity of Christ from the Godhead as they share one inseparable substance even though distinguishable by three Persons.

The Trinity was on the Cross?

Jesus removed His glory,

Phl 2:6
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phl 2:7
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phl 2:8
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

 

[MB]

No, I am arguing for the very opposite. The Person of Christ was on the cross. I am just saying you cannot separate the Deity of Christ from the Godhead as they share one inseparable substance even though distinguishable by three Persons.

I do not disagree with this and this is exactly why Christ was on the cross being fully God and man

 

[MB]

The Trinity was on the Cross?

Jesus removed His glory,

Phl 2:6
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phl 2:7
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phl 2:8
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

In my humble opinion I can think of nothing more glorifying than sacrificing His Life for me. It is the greatest act of love there could ever be. Him dying for the likes of me. I've never felt worthy of His Love.
MB

 

[loDebar]

I do not disagree with this and this is exactly why Christ was on the cross being fully God and man

He adds though, the humanity of Jesus death was sufficient to pay for sins,