Adam's Sin or Our Sins?

[revmwc]

Not sure I understood your question, can you rephrase it?

When Paul says we were dead in tresspass and sin how were we dead?
What were we seperated from? Death means seperation so what were we seperated from?

We are told what we were seperated in we were dead in tresspasses and sins, if that be true then that means we were seperated from define what we were seprated from?

If we were quickened how were we quickened? Ephesians 2: 1 "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;"

So define two things here:
1. How we were dead - what we were seperated from
Here is my definition, this death is sepration of the human spirit from God in time. Now you give your deifinition.

2. We were made alive (quickened) what was quickened?

Romans 7: 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Paul is saying we were walking in the domination of sin as unbelievers (i.e. by our old nature) the law showed to us the sin and our death define this death)

6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

We have been deliverd from sin which the law revealed and we should serve in newness of spirit, spiritual life. So that in Ephesians 2:1 we were quickened made alive spiritually is how I define it. Spiritually alive.

Now you define it?

 

[Van]

Reply to Skandelon,

There are two passages I want to throw into the mix:

2 Cor. 5:18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them.

And

Rom 3:25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Both of these indicate that prior to God's message of reconciliation being sent into all the world God didn't count men's sin against them and they go "unpunished." How do you all think that relates to this discussion regarding Adam's sin?

I mean, if God is not even holding men accountable for sins they actually committed in order to allow them mercy through faith, what makes us think He is holding us accountable for the sin of Adam still? Didn't the atonement of Christ handle that problem once and for all?

If we look at 2 Corinthians 5:18, when do we think God is "not counting men's sins against them?" While reconciling or after God reconciled the person to Himself? I read it after receiving the reconciliation.

If we look at the phrase "reconciling the world" it does not say the world has been reconciled, so it looks to me like God is reconciling the world, one believer at a time, when He puts a person in Christ, they receive the reconciliation, and so by the process of putting individuals in Christ, God is reconciling the world.

Turning now to Romans 3:25 it reads (NASB) [Christ]"whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation, in His blood through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed:

Again, what this seems to say, in my opinion, is that when God justifies a person, God passes over their previously committed sins. And we are justified, when God credits our faith as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ where we undergo the circumcision of Christ. We are justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is "in Christ Jesus."

Together the two verses make a compelling case that only when a person is spiritually placed in Christ, are they justified and therefore their previously committed sins passed over.

 

[Calv1]

This morning at our men's meeting (SBC church), an SBC minister stressed the point that we are all guilty and condemned because of Adam's sin. Later, I phoned him and questioned him about that and quoted the paragraph below from the SBC BF&M about us being condemned because of our own sins. Although he did not have the BF&M in front of him, he said he was very familiar with the BF&M and saw no conflict with us being guilty of Adam's sin.

The minister may be a Calvinists. My question is: Do Calvinists and Non-Calvinists take different positions on this issue?

III. Man
"Man is the special creation of God, made in His own image. He created them male and female as the crowning work of His creation. The gift of gender is thus part of the goodness of God's creation. In the beginning man was innocent of sin and was endowed by his Creator with freedom of choice. By his free choice man sinned against God and brought sin into the human race. Through the temptation of Satan man transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original innocence whereby his posterity inherit a nature and an environment inclined toward sin. Therefore, as soon as they are capable of moral action, they become transgressors and are under condemnation. Only the grace of God can bring man into His holy fellowship and enable man to fulfill the creative purpose of God. The sacredness of human personality is evident in that God created man in His own image, and in that Christ died for man; therefore, every person of every race possesses full dignity and is worthy of respect and Christian love."

Adam means "Man". We, as a race, are sinful. We are not directly responsible for Adams sin, we did not do that, however we were "In Adam", literally in His loins, therefore we all inherit a sin nature from our father Adam.

While Christs atonement was "Not necessary", in regards to salvation it was necessary, that His righteousness would be imputed upon us, as well as His taking away our sins.

 

[webdog]

When Paul says we were dead in tresspass and sin how were we dead?

Spiritually. We die spiritually by sinning and committing trespasses.

What were we seperated from? Death means seperation so what were we seperated from?

God as we are not separated from our bodies when we break His law.

Paul is saying we were walking in the domination of sin as unbelievers (i.e. by our old nature) the law showed to us the sin and our death define this death)

I think it is a stretch to state spiritual death occurs simply by having a sin nature. I still have a sin nature and I'm not spiritually dead. Paul was clear that we were once dead in OUR trespasses and sins that WE used to walk in. That doesn't get much more clearer, we die spiritually for our sins, not the sin of another.

 

[JesusFan]

Spiritually. We die spiritually by sinning and committing trespasses.

We were ALREADY born dead into sin, as the Sin of Adam was imputed to all who came after him. Adam ids the "head: of the human race before God, and so when he fell, we all fell in him.
just as we are "in Christ" due to the new birth, having a new nature in us, we are "in Adam: before that, in sin...
We sin because we are sinners, not sinners due to us sinning...

God as we are not separated from our bodies when we break His law.
I think it is a stretch to state spiritual death occurs simply by having a sin nature. I still have a sin nature and I'm not spiritually dead. Paul was clear that we were once dead in OUR trespasses and sins that WE used to walk in. That doesn't get much more clearer, we die spiritually for our sins, not the sin of another.

UNLESS you are "in Christ" you will have both a sin nature ONLY and will be "spritual dead" as you need to have the Holy Spirit in you in order to be "alive again in Christ"

 

[webdog]

UNLESS you are "in Christ" you will have both a sin nature ONLY and will be "spritual dead" as you need to have the Holy Spirit in you in order to be "alive again in Christ"

For those that have transgressed God's law I agree. Just being conceived does not constitute spiritual death. We are sinners in the same way Adam was...but willfully breaking God's law.

"I was alive (spiritually) apart from the law once, but when the commandment came (understanding God's law) sing sprang to life and I died" - Apostle Paul

 

[JesusFan]

For those that have transgressed God's law I agree. Just being conceived does not constitute spiritual death. We are sinners in the same way Adam was...but willfully breaking God's law.

The reason though we sin against God is due to the fact that we Are sinners by our very natures, will sin willfully, as our very natures are bent/at ementy with God

"I was alive (spiritually) apart from the law once, but when the commandment came (understanding God's law) sing sprang to life and I died" - Apostle Paul

Again, unless God is able to regenerate you, save/reddem you to new life in Christ, we would ALL be sinners by both nature and choice...

I define "dead" as meaning unable to have a relationship with God, unable to :know: Him, and unable to perceive spiritual things without His aiding us...

 

[webdog]

Again, unless God is able to regenerate you, save/reddem you to new life in Christ, we would ALL be sinners by both nature and choice...

You have just redefined sinner with "by both nature...".

I define "dead" as meaning unable to have a relationship with God, unable to :know: Him, and unable to perceive spiritual things without His aiding us...

With all due respect it matters not how we define things, but how Scripture does. Scripture defines spiritual death as separation from the source of life. Using your definition believers are unable to sin unless empowered to by God as we are told we are dead to sin.

 

[revmwc]

Spiritually. We die spiritually by sinning and committing trespasses.
God as we are not separated from our bodies when we break His law.
I think it is a stretch to state spiritual death occurs simply by having a sin nature. I still have a sin nature and I'm not spiritually dead. Paul was clear that we were once dead in OUR trespasses and sins that WE used to walk in. That doesn't get much more clearer, we die spiritually for our sins, not the sin of another.

Spiritual death is sepration from God in time, everyone except Christ is seperated from God in time until they are regenerated spiritually. Regeneration the new birth is to be born Spirtually. We had to be spiritually dead to be born spiritually alive. You say we die spiritually by sinning so the very first temper tantrum a child has to get their way would cause spiritual death.
Spiritual Death - everyone is born Spiritually dead. As Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
tells us death was imputed (placed in their account) to all mankind. This death is sepration of the human spirit from God in time. GEN. 2:17; Rom 5:12; Ephesians 2:1

Gen. 2: 17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

What happened Adam and Eve hid from God (seperation from God in Time) in shame of there sin and God made the way for restoration.

Ephesians 2:1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

We were spiritually dead in tresspasses and sins. (death by sin)

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Spiritual Death passed upon all mankind at birth. When we receive Christ we become Spiritually alive, our sin nature remains and we sin. But this sin doesn't cause spiritual death it brings Temporal death, temporary lose of fellowship from God, He chastens but we are no longer under the control (filling) of the Holy Spirit. 1st John 1:9 comes into play, we must confess to restore the fellowship (filling of the Holy spirit). If we continue in sin we go into Operational death, continuing not to operate under the filling ofthe Spirit. You msut be able to distinguish the types of death, in order to know what God's word is telling us.

 

[JesusFan]

You have just redefined sinner with "by both nature...".

Actually, just defining it as the Bible does, as ALL are dead in their sins and trespasses, none without being "rebirthed" by Holy Spirit are even able to be "alive" in the Biblical sense...

With all due respect it matters not how we define things, but how Scripture does. Scripture defines spiritual death as separation from the source of life. Using your definition believers are unable to sin unless empowered to by God as we are told we are dead to sin.

Paul says that he did not even know what Sin was until convicted by the Law of God, and that shows us what is meant would be more in the extent that we are all "dead" to realising we are sinners, as we are just doing "natural things" and need either law/Spirit to convict us ofour own sinfulness...

 

[Calv1]

For those that have transgressed God's law I agree. Just being conceived does not constitute spiritual death. We are sinners in the same way Adam was...but willfully breaking God's law.

"I was alive (spiritually) apart from the law once, but when the commandment came (understanding God's law) sing sprang to life and I died" - Apostle Paul

"I was conceived in sin"
"They sin from the womb, telling lies"

You are born spiritually dead and unable to please God. You are born a "Slave to sin".

You can't possibly be saying you were righteous from the womb, ready for Heaven, then when you grew you became a sinner? If so, abortion would do more for Heaven than any preacher!

 

[webdog]

"I was conceived in sin"
"They sin from the womb, telling lies"

You are born spiritually dead and unable to please God. You are born a "Slave to sin".

You can't possibly be saying you were righteous from the womb, ready for Heaven, then when you grew you became a sinner? If so, abortion would do more for Heaven than any preacher!

I see...a psalm containing poetic language meant to be taken figuratively trumps a letter from Paul to a church...meant to be taken literally.

I really question your desire to truly learn and grow based on your interactions in this short time, so I am not going to dig deeper into this with you.

 

[TomVols]

If so, abortion would do more for Heaven than any preacher!

Calv, while I get your hyperbole, I'd rethink using abortion to analogize the discussion at hand. I dunno about anyone else, but I'm not wild about it.

The whole "born perfect" thing would make Finney get a Calvinist tatoo. But still, could you find a better way to say what you're saying?

 

[TomVols]

Administrative clarification

I see...a psalm containing poetic language meant to be taken figuratively trumps a letter from Paul to a church...meant to be taken literally.

Just for edification and education, are you implying that the genre of the Psalter is not to be used in any way in a literal form? I think the word "figuratively" is misused or misinterpreted. When the Psalmist declares that "The Earth is the Lord's...." (Ps 24) he is being literal, though poetic. When he declares that the lovingkindness of the Lord is everlasting, or we are fearfully and wonderfully made, he is literal though poetic.

I ask this for clarification. I think what you meant to say was the why should David trump Paul? Otherwise, hermeneutically, it's hard to justify a sensius plenor understanding of what you said.

Thanks!

 

[webdog]

Just for edification and education, are you implying that the genre of the Psalter is not to be used in any way in a literal form? I think the word "figuratively" is misused or misinterpreted. When the Psalmist declares that "The Earth is the Lord's...." (Ps 24) he is being literal, though poetic. When he declares that the lovingkindness of the Lord is everlasting, or we are fearfully and wonderfully made, he is literal though poetic.

I ask this for clarification. I think what you meant to say was the why should David trump Paul? Otherwise, hermeneutically, it's hard to justify a sensius plenor understanding of what you said.

Thanks!

First, one psalm states we are sinners from conception...the other from birth. If this is to be taken literal, which is it?

Second, I've never heard a newborn speak lies let alone speak. Do they have asper fangs filled with venom...that transform to those of a lion? If we are going to use these psalms literally, we need to be consistent, no? Was David taught wisdom in the womb? Does God cleanse us from our original sin with hyssop?