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- Thread starter natters
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Michelle:The SIMPLE truth is, that you also fail to understand, is GOD in His POWER, CONTROL, and PROVIDENCE, allowed this to be rendered as "God forbid" and "Lucifer" in our english language for generations in the believing churches.
WRONG.
The "simple truth" is that God allowed human translators to render His word into various languages, including English. The KJV is no more special than any other valid translation is.
There is no error, where you try to find error (which calls God a liar - and puffs up your own mind), in order to JUSTIFY those things that have altered the very words of God.
Call it what you want; another "simple truth" is that "God forbid" is NOT a literal translation of the Greek, & "the image of" in Romans 11:4 isn't in the Greek at all. Therefore, if "morning star" in Isaiah 14:12 in some BVs is wrong, then so are the above renderings in the KJV. It cannot be one without the other.
WRONG.
The "simple truth" is that God allowed human translators to render His word into various languages, including English. The KJV is no more special than any other valid translation is.
There is no error, where you try to find error (which calls God a liar - and puffs up your own mind), in order to JUSTIFY those things that have altered the very words of God.
Call it what you want; another "simple truth" is that "God forbid" is NOT a literal translation of the Greek, & "the image of" in Romans 11:4 isn't in the Greek at all. Therefore, if "morning star" in Isaiah 14:12 in some BVs is wrong, then so are the above renderings in the KJV. It cannot be one without the other.
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You're correct. Transliterating the word "lucifer" in the aforementioned passage is by no means an error. The error lies when we presume that the word in the passage referrs to Satan. It does not. The KJV's own marginal notes attest to that.
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It does, and I have provided many scriptural references as to why - I showed you what God has said about it. Those who claim it doesn't, haven't. I also gave you the evidence that Lucifer means Satan in English by giving you a dictionary definition of it. Not only that, Lucifer is speaking of a person, not a star, and it is not metaphorical in the context of the scripture. Go ahead and believe the blasphemous rendering if you so choose. I for one will not, and reject it.
John 16
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
You're correct. Transliterating the word "lucifer" in the aforementioned passage is by no means an error. The error lies when we presume that the word in the passage referrs to Satan. It does not. The KJV's own marginal notes attest to that.
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It does, and I have provided many scriptural references as to why - I showed you what God has said about it. Those who claim it doesn't, haven't. I also gave you the evidence that Lucifer means Satan in English by giving you a dictionary definition of it. Not only that, Lucifer is speaking of a person, not a star, and it is not metaphorical in the context of the scripture. Go ahead and believe the blasphemous rendering if you so choose. I for one will not, and reject it.
John 16
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
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Michelle:The SIMPLE truth is, that you also fail to understand, is GOD in His POWER, CONTROL, and PROVIDENCE, allowed this to be rendered as "God forbid" and "Lucifer" in our english language for generations in the believing churches.
WRONG.
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I would like to see your proof, and not just what man has said about it, but what has God said about in his words, that allow you to tell me it isn't? (2 Tim.2:14-16)
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
Michelle:The SIMPLE truth is, that you also fail to understand, is GOD in His POWER, CONTROL, and PROVIDENCE, allowed this to be rendered as "God forbid" and "Lucifer" in our english language for generations in the believing churches.
WRONG.
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I would like to see your proof, and not just what man has said about it, but what has God said about in his words, that allow you to tell me it isn't? (2 Tim.2:14-16)
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
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quote:
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Originally posted by natters:
I don't think "Lucifer" is an error. Lucifer means morning star, as does Heylel in Hebrew as does Phosphorus in Greek as does Lucero in Spanish as does Morgenstern in German. It is correct. All the evidence supports this: dictionaries, lectionaries, concordances, historical writings, notes by reformation-era translators, everything. The only "evidence" that doesn't support it is the opinions of those who simply wish it wasn't true.
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Askjo quoted:
Click here: Lucifer
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Praise God! for explaining the truth for us in the other scriptures to give us a clearer and better understanding. What a wonderful Lord we serve!
Bless your heart Askjo! You are rightly dividing the word of truth, as we are commanded to do. Thank you very much for this post. (2 Tim.2:14-16)
May the Lord continue to richly bless you Asjko.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
quote:
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Originally posted by natters:
I don't think "Lucifer" is an error. Lucifer means morning star, as does Heylel in Hebrew as does Phosphorus in Greek as does Lucero in Spanish as does Morgenstern in German. It is correct. All the evidence supports this: dictionaries, lectionaries, concordances, historical writings, notes by reformation-era translators, everything. The only "evidence" that doesn't support it is the opinions of those who simply wish it wasn't true.
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Askjo quoted:
Click here: Lucifer
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Praise God! for explaining the truth for us in the other scriptures to give us a clearer and better understanding. What a wonderful Lord we serve!
Bless your heart Askjo! You are rightly dividing the word of truth, as we are commanded to do. Thank you very much for this post. (2 Tim.2:14-16)
May the Lord continue to richly bless you Asjko.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
Actually, no, you haven't. You've given verses that have nothing to do whatsoever with the aforementioned verse. In doing so, you're doing two things: 1 - you're adding to the word of God, and 2 - you're wrongly dividing the Word of God.
That sounds very amusing coming from someone who heretically adds to the Word of God by requiring everyone to believe in an unscriptural single-translationism heresy.
If you claim the the rendering is "blasphemous", then you claim that the KJV's own margin notes (which refute your claim) are blasphemous.
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That sounds very amusing coming from someone who heretically adds to the Word of God by requiring everyone to believe in an unscriptural single-translationism heresy.
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This statement is full of lies and false accusations about my faith and my stand on this issue.
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
That sounds very amusing coming from someone who heretically adds to the Word of God by requiring everyone to believe in an unscriptural single-translationism heresy.
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This statement is full of lies and false accusations about my faith and my stand on this issue.
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
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If you claim the the rendering is "blasphemous", then you claim that the KJV's own margin notes (which refute your claim) are blasphemous.
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footnotes are not the words of God and are not therefore authoritative. They only are, if you believe mens opinions, over that of what God has said in the scriptures.
John 16
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
If you claim the the rendering is "blasphemous", then you claim that the KJV's own margin notes (which refute your claim) are blasphemous.
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footnotes are not the words of God and are not therefore authoritative. They only are, if you believe mens opinions, over that of what God has said in the scriptures.
John 16
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
No, I'm sorry, I hate to be so firm with you sister, but it's not.
You add to the Word of God by promoting the idea that there is to be only one translation for all people of all time, and that the said translation have authority over all other texts. You require all Christians to adhere to that same belief. Imposition of such belief is not scripturally supportable.
I don't tell you this out of malice, but out of sincere Christian brotherly concern.
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Actually, no, you haven't. You've given verses that have nothing to do whatsoever with the aforementioned verse. In doing so, you're doing two things: 1 - you're adding to the word of God, and 2 - you're wrongly dividing the Word of God.
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How easy it is for you to claim such a thing, without evidence or proof otherwise. I believe God and what he has said about this, rather than what men say. I have given you the scriptures to back that up. You have not provided one iota from the scriptures to back up your claim. God's word ALWAYS defines itself within the cannon of scripture. If you are correct, you should be able to provide the scriptural authority in God's words to show me kindly otherwise, to which you have not done.
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
Actually, no, you haven't. You've given verses that have nothing to do whatsoever with the aforementioned verse. In doing so, you're doing two things: 1 - you're adding to the word of God, and 2 - you're wrongly dividing the Word of God.
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How easy it is for you to claim such a thing, without evidence or proof otherwise. I believe God and what he has said about this, rather than what men say. I have given you the scriptures to back that up. You have not provided one iota from the scriptures to back up your claim. God's word ALWAYS defines itself within the cannon of scripture. If you are correct, you should be able to provide the scriptural authority in God's words to show me kindly otherwise, to which you have not done.
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
What God said is in Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic. God did not speak in English or Latin. What God said was not a proper name for the devil. It is men, not God, that came up with Lucifer. Hence, if you truly believe what God says, then you cannot assert that God was referring to Satan in the aforementioned verse.
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Then you assert that, by your own standards, that the KJV translators were being blasphemous by including the marginal note "day star".
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2 Tim.2
14. Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
Titus 3
8. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
9. But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11. Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
John 16
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
Then you assert that, by your own standards, that the KJV translators were being blasphemous by including the marginal note "day star".
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2 Tim.2
14. Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
Titus 3
8. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
9. But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11. Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
John 16
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
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What God said is in Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic. What God said was not a proper name for the devil. It is men, not God, that came up with Lucifer. Hence, if you truly believe what God says, then you cannot assert that God was referring to Satan in the aforementioned verse.
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Then by what, might I ask, were you saved?
Romans 10
13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15. And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16. But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
What God said is in Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic. What God said was not a proper name for the devil. It is men, not God, that came up with Lucifer. Hence, if you truly believe what God says, then you cannot assert that God was referring to Satan in the aforementioned verse.
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Then by what, might I ask, were you saved?
Romans 10
13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15. And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16. But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Interesting.
Teach me how to link to a specific post.
I only know how to link to a specific page.
BTW, quoting oneself is NOT considered sufficient
argument in any circle that i know of.
Michelle:The SIMPLE truth is, that you also fail to understand, is GOD in His POWER, CONTROL, and PROVIDENCE, allowed this to be rendered as "God forbid" and "Lucifer" in our english language for generations in the believing churches.
robycop3:WRONG.
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Michelle:I would like to see your proof, and not just what man has said about it, but what has God said about in his words, that allow you to tell me it isn't? (2 Tim.2:14-16)
EASY!
Luke 20:16, KJV "He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.
same verse, NIV:"What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others." When the people heard this, they said, "May this never be!"
From the NASB:
"He will come and destroy these vine-growers and will give the vineyard to others." When they heard it, they said, " May it never be!"
Romans 11:4, KJV But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Same verse, NIV:And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal."
From the NASV: But what is the divine response to him? " I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."
And from the NKJV:But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."
robycop3:WRONG.
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Michelle:I would like to see your proof, and not just what man has said about it, but what has God said about in his words, that allow you to tell me it isn't? (2 Tim.2:14-16)
EASY!
Luke 20:16, KJV "He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.
same verse, NIV:"What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others." When the people heard this, they said, "May this never be!"
From the NASB:
"He will come and destroy these vine-growers and will give the vineyard to others." When they heard it, they said, " May it never be!"
Romans 11:4, KJV But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Same verse, NIV:And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal."
From the NASV: But what is the divine response to him? " I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."
And from the NKJV:But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
The Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
is now available on line at:
http://bible.crosswalk.com/
(They have the best search engine of all!!!)
Isaiah 14:12 (HCSB = The Holman Christian Standard Bible)
Shining morning star,
how you have fallen from the heavens!
You destroyer of nations,
you have been cut down to the ground.
Praise Iesus, the Sonne of God!
is now available on line at:
http://bible.crosswalk.com/
(They have the best search engine of all!!!)
Isaiah 14:12 (HCSB = The Holman Christian Standard Bible)
Shining morning star,
how you have fallen from the heavens!
You destroyer of nations,
you have been cut down to the ground.
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Luke 20:16, KJV "He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.
same verse, NIV:"What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others." When the people heard this, they said, "May this never be!"
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I do not recognize the mv's as my final authority, so they have no relevance to me.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
Luke 20:16, KJV "He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.
same verse, NIV:"What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others." When the people heard this, they said, "May this never be!"
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I do not recognize the mv's as my final authority, so they have no relevance to me.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle