Admonishing a pastor

Sunday morning may have the weakest Christians in attendance, but it also the only time that the pastor will have access to a large portion of the congregation (since they will not be back at any other time during the week...).

Feed them the Word. The whole Word. Don't worry about whether it is the meat or the milk. So long as you put the cookies on the bottom shelf, preach it.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Dr. Bob Griffin said:

Well said Dr. Bob! After 45 years as a Christian, I think most of the sermons I've heard preached in the GARBC, BBFI and many of the sermons I've heard in KJVO churches are the "frothy pablum", three points and a poem variety.

Its so discouraging to go to church and get a "message" that is not a message from God.

Why does a preacher - any preacher - step into the pulpit professing to believe the Bible is the word of God

and then NOT preach a Bible message, expository, verse by verse?

I don't go to church to hear 9 illustrations and three, four or five alliterated points, the plan of salvation tacked on to the end of a "message" that had little or nothing to do with salvation and then 9 stanzas of 'Just As I Am'.

Since I also pastored for years, I know this issue from the preacher's side too. I preached verse by verse through a book of the Bible, believing that God would give my people what they needed, at the growth level they had reached, by guiding what I preached if I was yielded and prayed up and studied up.

Been taking care of my elderly folks for a few years now. Mom went home to heaven in January 2001 and I'm staying with Dad to help keep him in his own home till the Lord calls him home so am not pastoring now.

Kinda hard to go listen to sermons from well-educated, intelligent, experienced pastors who preach only topical messages with illustrations from the 1970ies. I know they know more than they preach - so why are they "phoning in the message"?

Don't mean to complain but I too carry a study Bible or something to read so my time is not "wasted".
I also outline the passage (if the preacher actually takes the time to read a passage) and write down the cross-references I would use if I was preaching the passage.

And yes, I've visited around - there are over 300 Baptist churches in my two county area. Lots of activity, lots of church programs but even in the Baptist churches "a famine for hearing the words of the Lord".

 

I understand the mentality of the pastor wanting to give milk on Sunday Morning, but that could be the very reason the "Sunday morning crowd" is just that, and the why of the matter you only see them in that service. But why is it when a revival meeting is held and the "more dedicated"/ "meat" crowd, come to the evening meetings and they are the ones who get saved under "hard" preaching, but the 'Milk" crowd never seems to even budge?

May be the "milk" crowd needs a little more evangelizing than teaching?

"..heaping to themselves teachers having itching ears" Only reason they come is to have their milk and get their itch scratched? )this guy gave me the picture of one having an itching ear)

 

When I was pastoring I said to myself I will never waste another's time if I can help it. Pastors should never waste people's time with wishy washy sermons that have no meat and no application. It is a privilege to come before the people with such awesome responsibility to deliver the message from God's word. It is a task God has given and it must never be taken lightly. I have seen it over and over and each church I pastored where sound preaching is convicting and God uses His word. My own preaching even convicts me when I listen to myself. When I was in seminary they said God's word is powerful but there are things we can do to draw away from that.

Non-believers do not want to come and hear nonsense. They come to hear real answers to their problems and answers to their dilemma with God. God has brought them there. Let's not waste their time and God's.

It has truly been my experience that new believers can often understand the sermon better than those who need a resurrection. The alive will always understand the sermons better than those who are dead. So when I hear regular complaints from the same person I just think to myself that the person is simply telling me about themself.


I have found that once the people are beginning to be discipled they appreciate good preaching more. It feeds their sould because they are listening.

 

What a poor lot they are who can sit through 120 minutes of their favourite movie (540 minutes of Lord of the Rings trilogy), at least 80- 90 minutes of their favourite sport, and cheer when they are given extra time, but can only stand 15 minute sermons! Poor things!

They should thank God they are not in Eastern Europe and other parts where sermons can last up to an hour and they may have to listen to three or four in one service!

Heaven is going to be such a trial for some! Imagine, eternity focused on the things of God

 

Why do people try to set a time limit on a preacher? Why, oh why can he just not preach what God lays on his heart without worring about the congregation not listening after he preaches so long?
One of our missionaries from Africa said recently that over there people walk an hour both ways sometimes so when they get there the preacher had better be ready to preach at least three hours! AMEN!
I know I'm not a preacher, and I don't have years of Bible college, and prehaps I'm asking a silly question, but why worry about this? Why not just study the Word, get alone with God and ask Him to give you the messege your church needs? Why not just preach what God lay's on your hear with out worrying? As someone said, God can teach any truth to a person as long as you speak plainly. He is able.
~Miss Abby
Proverbs 31:30 KJB

 

I base sermons on scripture with a practical life connection. "..What did Jesus mean when he said...?" Also any reasonably good speaker will try to watch his(her) audience. If I see a few nodding off, I'll tell a joke, then pause. The laughter, (even if it's a corny joke), will usually wake them up, then it takes a minute for their neighbour to explain what they missed. NOW, they are awake, and I continue on as if I didn't know anybody was snoozing. As has been pointed out earlier in this thread, if the message is boring, it's not always the fault of the listener.

 

What a poor lot they are who can sit through 120 minutes of their favourite movie (540 minutes of Lord of the Rings trilogy), at least 80- 90 minutes of their favourite sport, and cheer when they are given extra time, but can only stand 15 minute sermons! Poor things!

They should thank God they are not in Eastern Europe and other parts where sermons can last up to an hour and they may have to listen to three or four in one service!

Heaven is going to be such a trial for some! Imagine, eternity focused on the things of God
</font>[/QUOTE]I would'nt know what to do If my Pastor only preached for 15-20 min, I might have to stand in line at Luby's

 

Just a quick observation; first off pastors do not have an audience, unless of course they are an hierling!

Could you imagine Christ having a time limit on the sermon of the Mount? The people liked what He had to say and were hungry for it. It is a pastors job to feed the sheep that God has intrusted to him. There should be no time limits on the sermon. If people don't want a long sermon it is either because they aren't hungry or they aren't getting fed!!!

 

Pastors who preach topically have the same amount of time as preachers who preach expositorily. There may be a variety of reasons to preach topically for a period. But even topical messages must have deep study and exposition of relevant passages. I will preach a topical series this summer on "Dealing with Feeling" regarding the emotions of life and how to respond biblically. It will be probably 6-8 weeks. Most of the rest of this year, I will devote to the book of Hebrews, to hold forth and make bright the superiority of Christ. I think there is place for topics to be addressed from time to time. But it may be a sign of problems with the pastor.

My suspicion is that preachers who constantly preach on topics are 1) beating people up by looking for targets; 2) preaching on easy themes since it doesn't take much study; 3) lazy; and/or 4) don't know how and refuse to learn.

I realize that is overgeneralization but deal with it ... It is meant as an observation

The reality is that you do have to know your audience (and yes, the pastor has one, unless the pews are empty). Know where your people live.

I was disappointed to see Abiyah's quote of me and her understanding of it. I will repeat it here for those who didn't see it and then I will address it.

The last paragraph is something I completely agree with. The first is something I said, so of course I agree with that. The second is what bothers me.

There was no assumption made. I would think virtually every pastor here would agree that my statement was indeed fact. Sunday morning only Christians are generally weaker or visiting as unsaved. Early in my ministry here, I preached way over the heads of people. And I was not communicating. I got a lot of questions afterwards. And I began to think to myself, why not just answer teh questions in teh message? If I sound like tinkling glass and a sounding cymbal, but no one understands, what good is it?

I developed this little thing a while back in my thinking.

Personal Observations about Inner-City ministry.
These observations are things that I have found to be true in my ministry. They are not all-inclusive. They are simply my perspectives.
1. There is no substitute for time spent with people.
• In a chart that Nathan had in the 1971 Baptist Bulletin concerning the largest SSs in the GARBC, the common denominator in 8 of 10 was strong calling program.
• People are much more likely to be impacted (for better or worse) by people that they know well. That is why parents are quite often the biggest influence on a person’s life. It would seem logical that it is why people from divorced families are more likely to get divorced.
• Must find ways to get in people’s homes (Bible studies, common interests, drop bys, etc.).
• I have found that there is a direct correlation between the amount of calling that I do and the number of people that we have in services. I struggle with calling because it is something that I hate to do. I would rather translate Hebrew than visit someone’s house.

2. There is no glory in homiletically perfect messages that people don’t understand.
• Common terms do not make sense (invitation, theological terms, salvation, believer, etc.)
• Theological literacy is low; Theological accuracy must not be sacrificed.
• While the inner cities do, to some degree, seem to have a deeper religious culture (especially among blacks), there is a healthy dose of emotionalism, empty ritual, and tradition. Yet there is no radical change.

3. There is no impact if we do not preach to people where they are.
• We must preach to people in the context in which they live.
o Spiritually
o Life context
• Spending time with people is the only way to find out where they live and what their needs are. While preaching directly to people from the pulpit, or using them as an example, is not a good idea, it is much easier to minister in a context where you know the people and have a relationship with them.

In the first year I was here, I had a guy who wanted to get baptized. I talked to him and decided to baptize him (I would never do it again that way). When we concluded, I was explaining to him the procedure. I said, "Come to the front at the invitation and someone will meet you and help you get ready." He asked me, "Invitation?? What's that??" He did not even know these basic theological terms. I don't use that term anymore. I use other terms. My point is that if you do not communicate with your audience, then you shouldn't be preaching.

No one has ever accused me of being shallow or of not forcing people to think and grow in their understanding. My problem is the opposite. I expect them to know too much and I have to constantly remind myself that I am not preaching to a seminary audience. I am preaching to people who are not familiar with things like I am. About a year ago, I reset my heart to working very hard on my preaching. A friend of mine who just received a doctorate in homiletics and I exchange our sermon outlines every week for interaction and improvement. It has been very hard work but it is well worth it. Just last night, someone told me that it is obvious that I have worked very hard on my preaching and communicating to people where they live.

So, I reject Abiyah's claim and insinuation that I am talking down to anyone. You don't accuse your doctor of talking down to you when he speaks in layman's terms. You don't accuse your stockbroker of talking down to you when he talks in laymen's terms. You don't accuse your mechanic of talking down to you when he talks in laymen's terms. Don't accuse your pastor of it either. He may be ... but he may not be.

[ January 12, 2004, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

I think all of us skirt the main issue that leads to the greatest percentage of boring sermons in all pulpits.

Preaching is both a Divine Calling and a Spiritual Gift.

Many who preach do not have the Spiritual Gift of Preaching and nobody has the courage to tell them.

Nobody can question whether or not you or I have a divine calling that's something between us and God.

But Those with the Spiritual Gift of Discernment can tell quickly if we don't have the Gift of Preaching.

 

Just a question, and perhaps one we should start a thread on if there is interest ... what role do you think an ordination council serves?? I think those are the men who ought to say, "We don't see a call evidenced in your life."

I think part of the call to preach is what Paul called in 1 Tim 3, "able to teach." If a man is not able to teach, then he has not been called. The ordination council, if he gets that far with his pastor stepping in, should be willing to say that and recommend that the church not ordain him. He could very well be suited to a different type of ministry. But not preaching.

 

Just a question, and perhaps one we should start a thread on if there is interest ... what role do you think an ordination council serves?? I think those are the men who ought to say, "We don't see a call evidenced in your life."

I think part of the call to preach is what Paul called in 1 Tim 3, "able to teach." If a man is not able to teach, then he has not been called. The ordination council, if he gets that far with his pastor stepping in, should be willing to say that and recommend that the church not ordain him. He could very well be suited to a different type of ministry. But not preaching. </font>[/QUOTE]Your point is well taken but the reality of the way many Ordination Councils work is that they ask the BIG QUESTION - "If we refuse to ordain you what are you going to do?" To which the candidate is supposed to reply - "I'm gonna preach anyway."

So the question is - does the ordination process need an overhaul in Baptist Circles?

 

That is an automatic red flag if a guy says that in response.

Not in the ones I have been in. But in most. They need to be tough doctrinal examinations about belief and fitness for ministry. They sholdn't be done on Sunday afternoon in an hour before the evening ordination service. They shouldn't be done more than one at a time. They should cover all the doctrines and practices to see what this guy believes. In short, probably many of them do need an overhaul. An ordination council around here is a 2-3 hour affair that moves right through the doctrinal statement of the candidate and puts him on the spot to see what he believes.

 

I think they license guys way too easily, let alone ordain them. My senior pastor, in November, asked me to provide him my doctrinal statement and testamony. These were distributed to the deacons and pastoral staff. They had them for 6 weeks to look over. (This is after I served as an intern for 18 months). He wanted to consider me for licensure. The first Sunday of January we had a meeting with the staff and deacons who then spent a little over an hour asking me to clarify and expand the points I made in my doctrinal statement and even asked me about some things I did not hit upon, such as Calvinism vs Armeniamism... (I weaseled out on that one a little and explained the main points of each without giving my personal opinion, which is they both have valid points, but I am somewhat in the middle. I know God calls us, and we respond. Not sure of all of the dynamics and told that much.) But, they have decided to reccomend licensure to the full body at the church business meeting on the 28th.

I have heard that some ordination councils are less than that. And people wonder why our pulpets are full of men who preach the easy stuff.