Advent

[Salty]

Does your local church do any thing special for Advent?

why or why not?

 

[Van]

Advent or Coming, or Visit refers to Christ. His first coming or advent happened over 2000 years ago, but He returned to Heaven with a promise to come again. His return is immanent. Many Churches make a big deal about that. One model used may be found at Easter services. Christ died on Friday, but Sunday is coming. We find ourselves in the Christian Saturday. Christ has died, but Sunday is coming.

Too much is often made of Christ, meek and mild, a baby in swaddling clothes, at peace with the sounds of sheep. Sunday is coming. Are we ready for the judge. Do we fear Him as we should or have we no wisdom?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Advent or Coming, or Visit refers to Christ. His first coming or advent happened over 2000 years ago, but He returned to Heaven with a promise to come again. His return is immanent. Many Churches make a big deal about that. One model used may be found at Easter services. Christ died on Friday, but Sunday is coming. We find ourselves in the Christian Saturday. Christ has died, but Sunday is coming.

Too much is often made of Christ, meek and mild, a baby in swaddling clothes, at peace with the sounds of sheep. Sunday is coming.

Amen! Great post -- up to this point. Then ...

Are we ready for the judge. Do we fear Him as we should or have we no wisdom?

He will judge my fruits at the Bema Seat. He's not going to judge my salvation. That's assured. If by "fear" you mean am I in awe of Him? Absolutely. But I have nothing to tremble and quake about before Him, other than His presence will undoubtedly overpower my senses and flatten me prostrate before Him.

 

[go2church]

Every year. Part of Advent his the past coming of Jesus but also a looking forward to his second coming. It also marks the start of the church calendar.

 

[Van]

He will judge my fruits at the Bema Seat. He's not going to judge my salvation. That's assured. If by "fear" you mean am I in awe of Him? Absolutely. But I have nothing to tremble and quake about before Him, other than His presence will undoubtedly overpower my senses and flatten me prostrate before Him.

The professing church is made up of wheat and tares. So the fact you or I claim to trust in Christ does not guarantee we have been born anew. If that we so there would be no need to "examine ourselves" to see if we are of the faith at every communion.

So the question has relevance. But He of course will not judge our faithfulness, if we are born anew, such that we will lose our salvation, we will enter heaven as one escaping from a fire, bringing little or no rewards with us.

I defined "fear of the Lord." If you are certain you are born again, then you might say you have no need to tremble and quake. But then the folks of Matthew 7 thought they were saved and therefore they could engage in lawlessness. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, not taking God for granted.

Just saying...

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

The professing church is made up of wheat and tares. So the fact you or I claim to trust in Christ does not guarantee we have been born anew. If that we so there would be no need to "examine ourselves" to see if we are of the faith at every communion.

I cannot agree with that, Van. I know for certain I am in Christ's arms and born again. There is no doubt. I am not a tare, and I do not entertaing thoughts that, because of my salvation, I can "sin at will." That's absurd for a truly saved person to think, though I know it is often used as an argument by those who believe we can "lose" our salvation. How can we lose something we have nothing to do with obtaining?

Tares are darnel wheat. They are genetically different from wheat. They look very much like wheat throughout the growth season, but at harvest, the heads turn black. They become readily apparent. Do tares know they are tares? They're weeds. How would they know anything? But people aren't weeds. Deep in their heart of hearts, the "tares" of the church know they are not in Christ's bosom. They do not "examine" themselves because they know what they will find.

We examine ourselves not to determine our salvation, but to determine our conformation to the image of Christ. One who does not believe has no desire to be so conformed. We, as those who love Him and trust in Him, constantly measure ourselves against the Master, and when we find we are wanting in one area or another, we make correction in order to be conformed.

John 10, NASB
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."​

If we were to question our faith, we would not be able to hear His voice. We may, from time to time, actually question our salvation, but the very fact we ask ourselves or God such a question is indicative of the truth that we are, indeed, saved. No unsaved person would even think of needing to ask the question in the first place.

From time to time, it is desirable to examine or prove ourselves to know we are in alignment with God's mind and will. We check ourselves, as it were, to ensure that we are walking worthy of our calling. Passover is only a short time away. As Christians, we need to consider the self-examination process God's Word says we should be undergoing as the spring festivals approach.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I cannot agree with that, Van. I know for certain I am in Christ's arms and born again. There is no doubt. I am not a tare, and I do not entertaing thoughts that, because of my salvation, I can "sin at will." That's absurd for a truly saved person to think, though I know it is often used as an argument by those who believe we can "lose" our salvation. How can we lose something we have nothing to do with obtaining?

Tares are darnel wheat. They are genetically different from wheat. They look very much like wheat throughout the growth season, but at harvest, the heads turn black. They become readily apparent. Do tares know they are tares? They're weeds. How would they know anything? But people aren't weeds. Deep in their heart of hearts, the "tares" of the church know they are not in Christ's bosom. They do not "examine" themselves because they know what they will find.

We examine ourselves not to determine our salvation, but to determine our conformation to the image of Christ. One who does not believe has no desire to be so conformed. We, as those who love Him and trust in Him, constantly measure ourselves against the Master, and when we find we are wanting in one area or another, we make correction in order to be conformed.

John 10, NASB
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."​

If we were to question our faith, we would not be able to hear His voice. We may, from time to time, actually question our salvation, but the very fact we ask ourselves or God such a question is indicative of the truth that we are, indeed, saved. No unsaved person would even think of needing to ask the question in the first place.

From time to time, it is desirable to examine or prove ourselves to know we are in alignment with God's mind and will. We check ourselves, as it were, to ensure that we are walking worthy of our calling. Passover is only a short time away. As Christians, we need to consider the self-examination process God's Word says we should be undergoing as the spring festivals approach.

See bold: So, you did not choose to accept God's offer of salvation? So, you're just a robot.

 

[Herald]

Our church barely recognizes the Christmas season, never mind Advent. I have no problem with Christians celebrating Christmas, but is a holiday that the Bible never tells us to recognize in the Church; i.e. as part of worship. It is, at its roots, a Popish holiday.

That said, I understand that many Gospel preaching churches do not agree. I am not going to rail against a church that observes Christmas. I can only obey my conscience and leave others in God's hands.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

See bold: So, you did not choose to accept God's offer of salvation? So, you're just a robot.

On my own, I am incapable of making that choice. It can only happen when I am drawn by the Holy Spirit, called to Him and have my mind opened to the facts of the gospel. It is in that small, finite bit of time/space I am able to make a decision. On my own, forget it. Ain't happenin'.

 

[Van]

I cannot agree with that,

Me thinks thou protest too much again.

You know you are a born anew believer by examining yourself, yet examining yourself is not for that purpose.

Next, inexplicably, you claim no tare ever examined him or herself, and turned to God and fell on their knees. How would you know the mind of all tares over time? Lots of "re-dedications" are actually coming to wholehearted faith for the first time!

What does "hear My voice" mean? It does not mean simply hearing Christ's words, lots of folks heard and then turned away. The idea is "My Sheep" born anew believers, strive to follow Christ - learning and then trying to adhere to all His commands and instructions.

Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. (A)Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that (B)Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

It seems salvation and not conformance is in view. If Jesus Christ is not in you, you are not saved.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Me thinks thou protest too much again.

I didn't protest at all. You've quoted my first post for a second time.

You know you are a born anew believer by examining yourself, yet examining yourself is not for that purpose.

That's what you believe. It is obvious from Scripture that is not the case. Only one verse (2 Corinthians 13:5) could even remotely be put up as a verse that advises to examine one's self as to salvation, but even that verse is not about such examination. Paul is speaking to those in the church at Corinth who doubt he is sent by God. All Paul is saying is that if they doubt he is from God, perhaps they need to look at themselves to see if they are hearing God, i.e., "in the faith", able to hear the voice of God whether through others, through the written word, or from Him directly.

Paul states he does not examine himself (1 Corinthians 4:3) as to being a believer, or being sent by God. This is again when Corinthian believers question his authenticity. He says his own conviction that there is nothing standing against him does not acquit him, but the Lord God does so. If Paul doesn't examine himself as to salvation, why would he advise anyone else to do so? That would be the height of inconsistency, and call into question his apostleship.

You have a misunderstanding of what self-examination is for the Christian. It is not to see if one is a believer. It is to see if one is on the proper path to know, grow in, and be a true disciple of God. That doesn't entail belief, though certainly belief is necessary for one to be in that position. It entails right relationship with Him. In other words, not forgetting who we are and what He has done for us to put us in that position to begin with.

 

[Van]

I demonstrated from scripture we are to examine ourselves to see if we are of the faith, and if we fail the exam, we are not saved.

1 Corinthians 4:3 simply makes my point again, Paul does not examine himself as whether he conforms to being a servant of the Lord or steward of the mysteries of God. It says nothing concerning examining himself as to whether he is of the faith. But 2 Corinthians 13:6 indicates he passes the test of verse 5.

You say I have a misunderstanding, that we are not to test or examine ourselves to see if we are of the faith. I think you do not understand 2 Corinthians 13:5-6. Additionally, self discipline and self control requires self examination, contemplation and correction.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Our church barely recognizes the Christmas season, never mind Advent. I have no problem with Christians celebrating Christmas, but is a holiday that the Bible never tells us to recognize in the Church; i.e. as part of worship. It is, at its roots, a Popish holiday.

That said, I understand that many Gospel preaching churches do not agree. I am not going to rail against a church that observes Christmas. I can only obey my conscience and leave others in God's hands.

A "Popish holiday"? Oh, please.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

On my own, I am incapable of making that choice. It can only happen when I am drawn by the Holy Spirit, called to Him and have my mind opened to the facts of the gospel. It is in that small, finite bit of time/space I am able to make a decision. On my own, forget it. Ain't happenin'.

And yet it is you of your own free will who had to make that choice. You were not compelled to make it.

 

[Herald]

A "Popish holiday"? Oh, please.

You do not have to say please. No need to stand on circumstance.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

You do not have to say please. No need to stand on circumstance.

I challenge you to prove that Christmas is a "Popish holiday". One should not make statements that stand on. . . . nothing.

 

[Herald]

Brian Schwetley writes:

Christmas was not celebrated by the apostolic church. It was not celebrated during the first few centuries of the church. As late as A.D. 245,
Origen (Hom. 8 on Leviticus) repudiated the idea of keeping the birthday
of Christ, "as if he were a king Pharaoh." By the middle of
the 4th century, many churches in the Latin west were celebrating
Christmas. During the 5th century, Christmas became an official Roman
Catholic holy day. In A.D. 534, Christmas was recognized as an official
holy day by the Roman state.

The reason that Christmas became a church holy day has nothing to
do with the Bible. The Bible does not give the date of Christ's birth.
Nowhere in the Bible are we commanded to celebrate Christmas. Christmas
(as well as many other pagan practices) was adopted by the Roman church
as a missionary strategy.

The syncretism with paganism as a missionary strategy is clearly revealed
in Pope Gregory I's instructions to missionaries, given in A.D. 601:
"Because they [the pagans] were wont to sacrifice oxen to devils,
some celebration should be given in exchange for this. . .
they should celebrate a religious feast and worship God by their feasting,
so that still keeping outward pleasures, they may more readily receive
spiritual joys."

None other that Charles Spurgeon repudiated any ecclesiastical observance of Christmas, although he was not as bothered about the benefits of mediating upon Christ's incarnation:

"We have no superstitious regard for times and seasons. Certainly we do not believe in the present ecclesiastical arrangement called Christmas. First, because we do not believe in the mass at all, but abhor it, whether it be sung in Latin or in English; and secondly, because we find no Scriptural warrant whatever for observing any day as the birthday of the Savior; and consequently, its observance is a superstition, because not of divine authority. Superstition has fixed most positively the day of our Savior's birth, although there is no possibility of discovering when it occurred. ... It was not till the middle of the third century that any part of the church celebrated the nativity of our Lord; and it was not till very long after the Western church had set the example, that the Eastern adopted it. ... Probably the fact is that the "holy" days were arranged to fit in with the heathen festivals. We venture to assert, that if there be any day in the year, of which we may be pretty sure that it was not the day on which the Savior was born, it is the twenty-fifth of December. Nevertheless since, the current of men's thoughts is led this way just now, and I see no evil in the current itself, I shall launch the bark of our discourse upon that stream, and make use of the fact, which I shall neither justify nor condemn, by endeavoring to lead your thoughts in the same direction. Since it is lawful, and even laudable, to meditate upon the incarnation of the Lord upon any day in the year, it cannot be in the power of other men's superstitions to render such a meditation improper for to-day. Regarding not the day, let us, nevertheless, give God thanks for the gift of His dear Son."

Even the term itself is derived from Roman Catholic observance - "Christ-mass" shortened to "Christmas".

But do not get too bent out of shape, sir. My view (the view held by the majority of the first Protestants and the Puritans) is distinctly in the minority. I have no problem with the festive nature of Christmas, so long as it is not observed in an ecclesiastical sense as part of worship.

 

[go2church]

I thought this was about advent? In some traditions Christmas isn't celebrated, though epiphany is. Use or don't use the church calendar, I don't understand the vitriol toward those who do.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Brian Schwetley writes:



None other that Charles Spurgeon repudiated any ecclesiastical observance of Christmas, although he was not as bothered about the benefits of mediating upon Christ's incarnation:



Even the term itself is derived from Roman Catholic observance - "Christ-mass" shortened to "Christmas".

But do not get too bent out of shape, sir. My view (the view held by the majority of the first Protestants and the Puritans) is distinctly in the minority. I have no problem with the festive nature of Christmas, so long as it is not observed in an ecclesiastical sense as part of worship.

Not proof, but at least you tried.

I'm not bent out of shape, and I don't mean to be harsh with you, as I believe you are a good person. But the older I get, the less I can tolerate certain things.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I thought this was about advent? In some traditions Christmas isn't celebrated, though epiphany is. Use or don't use the church calendar, I don't understand the vitriol toward those who do.

Nor do I......