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Advent

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
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Not proof, but at least you tried.

I'm not bent out of shape, and I don't mean to be harsh with you, as I believe you are a good person. But the older I get, the less I can tolerate certain things.

Hello TH

I was raised in the RC church...and this whole advent idea was promoted.

Are you saying this has a different origin? What is your proof as I have read more along the line of what was offered in Heralds post.

What do you see in scripture that supports such an idea? I see the cross as central.The incarnation being necessary to have the cross happen...but The Angelic announcement in Lk 1 works for me.:thumbs:
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Nor do I......

Do you fellas really consider these commentaries as vitriol? I dont see that, but what surprises me is the staunch "Puritanical" belief system that as Martyn Lloyd-Jones would describe as "a joyless, hard, not to say harsh & cold type of religion. He (ML-J) credits this hardness to being the result of intellectualism & the more the intellect dominates the less joy there will be, and the hardness, and a coldness, and a harshness, and a bigotry tend to come in." I personally have seen this in the Orthodox Presbyterian Churches where there are true Hyper Calvinists who will legislate (I use that term to illustrate the legalistic character of the place) a church goers life for them. Even driving up to the place, you note the dreary & colorless church & grounds.... Bad Bad Bad & Bring out your dead :laugh:

Thankfully Lloyd-Jones corrects himself with....." I almost said that it tends to produce 'dead Calvinism', but I am not saying that. Why not? Because I regard the term "dead Calvinism" as a contradiction in terms. I say that dead Calvinism is impossible, and that if your Calvinism appears to be dead it is not Calvinism, it's a philosophy. It is a philosophy using Calvinistic terms, it is an intellectualism, and not real Calvinism.

I do sincerely hope that people do not represent Calvinism & Puritanism in these characteristics.....because I never saw it displayed amongst my own Calvinistic relatives......who were the kindest, most gentle & loving people on the planet. Not that my RC Family were not .... but they did not have a calm demeanor that the Calvinists did. They had the assurance that God was in their lives shaping them.....and that leads to feelings, to passion, to warmth, to praise, to thanksgiving.
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I didn't protest at all. You've quoted my first post for a second time.

That's what you believe. It is obvious from Scripture that is not the case. Only one verse (2 Corinthians 13:5) could even remotely be put up as a verse that advises to examine one's self as to salvation, but even that verse is not about such examination. Paul is speaking to those in the church at Corinth who doubt he is sent by God. All Paul is saying is that if they doubt he is from God, perhaps they need to look at themselves to see if they are hearing God, i.e., "in the faith", able to hear the voice of God whether through others, through the written word, or from Him directly.

Paul states he does not examine himself (1 Corinthians 4:3) as to being a believer, or being sent by God. This is again when Corinthian believers question his authenticity. He says his own conviction that there is nothing standing against him does not acquit him, but the Lord God does so. If Paul doesn't examine himself as to salvation, why would he advise anyone else to do so? That would be the height of inconsistency, and call into question his apostleship.

You have a misunderstanding of what self-examination is for the Christian. It is not to see if one is a believer. It is to see if one is on the proper path to know, grow in, and be a true disciple of God. That doesn't entail belief, though certainly belief is necessary for one to be in that position. It entails right relationship with Him. In other words, not forgetting who we are and what He has done for us to put us in that position to begin with.

I demonstrated from scripture we are to examine ourselves to see if we are of the faith, and if we fail the exam, we are not saved.

1 Corinthians 4:3 simply makes my point again, Paul does not examine himself as whether he conforms to being a servant of the Lord or steward of the mysteries of God. It says nothing concerning examining himself as to whether he is of the faith. But 2 Corinthians 13:6 indicates he passes the test of verse 5.

You say I have a misunderstanding, that we are not to test or examine ourselves to see if we are of the faith. I think you do not understand 2 Corinthians 13:5-6. Additionally, self discipline and self control requires self examination, contemplation and correction.

Thisnumbersdisconected is correct in the interpretation of 2 Corinthians 13.

There is nothing in this passage in which Paul is calling the Corinthians to question their salvation, but to question how they are living out their salvation.

The believer is to examine himself, to bring himself to account, to lay the soul, mind, and walk honest before God's word for cleansing and instruction.

Paul is telling the Corinthians - if you don't, you know my apostolic authority and although I don't want to destroy you, but build you up, I will not tolerate your wrong doing.

This doesn't mean that every person in the Corinthian church was a believer. The unbeliever can't test what they don't have.

It is to believer's that such must examine themselves, not for salvation, but for their "conversation."
 

Herald

New Member
Not proof, but at least you tried.

I'm not bent out of shape, and I don't mean to be harsh with you, as I believe you are a good person. But the older I get, the less I can tolerate certain things.

I do not mind the harshness. I was raised 10 miles west of Manhattan where speaking one's mind was the norm.

As far as not tolerating certain things, glad to have you in the club.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I do not mind the harshness. I was raised 10 miles west of Manhattan where speaking one's mind was the norm.

As far as not tolerating certain things, glad to have you in the club.

You Herald confuse me. Jersey born & bred in a Urban Community of Italian Blood.... probably Irish (im Guessing) but you appear to disavow yourself of any traditional aspects of Christianity that bring joy into our sinful lives. Not that I believe that a overtly commercial & overblown holiday is necessary (perhaps thats what your saying & Im not getting it) but even among on Calvinistic family, there was a time of warmth & joy to Christmas......and they probably knew the bible far better than anyone in this board.
 

Herald

New Member
You Herald confuse me. Jersey born & bred in a Urban Community of Italian Blood.... probably Irish (im Guessing) but you appear to disavow yourself of any traditional aspects of Christianity that bring joy into our sinful lives. Not that I believe that a overtly commercial & overblown holiday is necessary (perhaps thats what your saying & Im not getting it) but even among on Calvinistic family, there was a time of warmth & joy to Christmas......and they probably knew the bible far better than anyone in this board.

Italian-Scottish descent.

Read what I wrote earlier. I have no problem with Christmas outside of formal ecclesiastical recognition. No Christmas trees in the sanctuary. No 2nd commandment violation by having a baby Jesus near the pulpit. We preach Christ crucified and risen from the dead! Our victory!

We go to Christmas parties. I use the season to strike up conversations that allow me to share Christ. That is all fine. But not in worship because it is not prescribed in Scripture.
 

Jerome

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
In last winter's ARBCA newsletter,

James Galyon, Reformed Baptist chaplain, reported:

I took part in all of the Nellis Chapel programs for Christmas – the annual Christmas Tree and Menorah Lighting, Advent services and the Christmas Eve service. While the Christmas Tree and Menorah Lighting is a pretty tame affair with the singing of secular Christmas songs and the arrival of Santa Claus, the Advent and Christmas Eve services were all very Christ-honoring with the messages preached. It’s an honor to serve with fellow chaplains who proclaim the true meaning of Christmas.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Italian-Scottish descent.

Read what I wrote earlier. I have no problem with Christmas outside of formal ecclesiastical recognition. No Christmas trees in the sanctuary. No 2nd commandment violation by having a baby Jesus near the pulpit. We preach Christ crucified and risen from the dead! Our victory!

We go to Christmas parties. I use the season to strike up conversations that allow me to share Christ. That is all fine. But not in worship because it is not prescribed in Scripture.

My neighbor, Frank (Francis) Benson is the Chaplin for the Kearney fire Dept., so he leaves NW Jersey at 4:30 am each morning...even with his cancer....he is a great guy. He wears his kilt every Christmas & New Year. My MIL is a Scot as is my wife's uncle Al MacAdoo....we will all be wearing kilts at my sons wedding with pipes playing
 

Herald

New Member
My neighbor, Frank (Francis) Benson is the Chaplin for the Kearney fire Dept., so he leaves NW Jersey at 4:30 am each morning...even with his cancer....he is a great guy. He wears his kilt every Christmas & New Year. My MIL is a Scot as is my wife's uncle Al MacAdoo....we will all be wearing kilts at my sons wedding with pipes playing

It's "Kearny" not "Kearney". I should know because I was born there and graduated High School there. The fire chief, Steve Dyl, was in my graduating class.
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
My neighbor, Frank (Francis) Benson is the Chaplin for the Kearney fire Dept., so he leaves NW Jersey at 4:30 am each morning...even with his cancer....he is a great guy. He wears his kilt every Christmas & New Year. My MIL is a Scot as is my wife's uncle Al MacAdoo....we will all be wearing kilts at my sons wedding with pipes playing

It's "Kearny" not "Kearney". I should know because I was born there and graduated High School there. The fire chief, Steve Dyl, was in my graduating class.


Typical "Yankees" arguing over a vowel.

:)
 
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