Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Come on now, Jeff. Where did I say anything of the sort??? I didn't say this. You are reading into my words.
I do apologize. Sometimes message boards make our words more biting, considering we can't make use of vocal inflection, facial expressions, etc.
I meant no offense.
I was simply under the impression that you didn't think this family should be going about finding a church home in the manner they were.
My question is, What are you expecting to find? You say you are looking for peace. But what in the world is that??? And what lets you know that is from the Lord? And if you need peace, then we don't have everything necessary to equip us for service and maturity as 2 Tim 3:17 promises. I think there are serious problems with this "peace" approach. I lived way too long in my life looking for "peace" and I was a miserable Christian. I had complete peace about things that blew up in my life. I had no peace about things that were absolutely what I should have been doing. I had a man challenge me on it and ask me these questions. I started thinking about it and studying Scripture. I realized that "seeking for God's guidance" is not found by this elusive "peace," whatever that is. The Bible never speaks of God leading us through peace. Friesen's book "Decision Making and the Will of God" is very good on this issue. He really hits the nail on the head. I read that about 3 or 4 years after I came to my position and I found great peace in knowing that someone else agreed with me. I remember laughing out loud at some of his examples. I wondered if he knew me. Peace comes to the believer in obedience.
I agree.
But I would say that my life has operated quite differently.
When confronted by two options where one must choose between good and best I find it in my best interests to spend a deal of time in prayer, seeking the Lord's will.
In regards to finding "peace" I mean by that an inner satisfaction with a certain choice. I believe this to be a scriptural concept as well.
None the less, it's not worth debating. Suffice to say I find that both your and my way of finding the Lord's will well within the parameters outlined by scripture.
I do seek the Lord's guidance. He guides through his word, and circumstances and desires. I simply would caution people about looking for something outside of his word. He is not working that way.
I hope this comes across gently - I mean no sarcasm when I write, please keep that in mind - but how do you look to "circumstances and desires" for guidance from the Lord all the while being cautious about "looking for something outside of His word"?
I would consider that tricky business, considering the heart is deceitful above all things.
However, I digress...
Second, as to the use of Scripture in this discussion, let me say this: The first record we have of baptism in the church is Acts 2. There, the pattern is salvation, baptism, added to the church.
Again, I agree but I do not see that baptism necessarily indicates a desire to be added to a certain local body, even the baptising body.
Even if the situation in Acts was normative, we have numerous problesm. Would this situation be the same if there were numerous churches as opposed to one group? What kind of baptism allowed one in? For instance - the group that had only received John's baptism yet received the Holy Spirit, would their baptism be sufficient for inclusion?
The fact that the apostles knew there were 3000 suggests that they were in fact keeping some sort of formal records, contrary to your suggestion that that is too elaborate.
Record keeping isn't beyond the capabilities of a primitive accounting.
What I said would be too elaborate would be a system similar to today's constitution and bylaws that are used to determine membership.
I can't help but think that "added to their number" means more or less "came to be worshippers of Christ" as opposed to "were formally welcomed into fellowship by a corporate decision based on pre-set guidelines".
Accepting that that is the pattern of the early church, we should assume the same in every other case of baptism. The references you mention should be assumed to fit that pattern, rather than fitting another pattern.
That's where we diverge. I don't see that the way you frame the verse is indicitive of any normative practice of the early church. Therefore there is no "pattern" such as the one you lay out.
Surely you realize that your position is as much unstated in those verses as mine is.
And that is my point - no mention of baptism being tied to any sort of membersip.
But what is the backdrop of NT theology about baptism and "added to the church." That one leads to the other. Your suggestion that these people were baptized apart from joining the church is certainly not found in the text.
It's not mentioned in the text. There is no "backdrop" at all, let alone from the text you cite.
As for your comment that I ignore the issue of her wanting to find the church she should be part of, I didn't ignore it at all. In fact, I specifically addressed it. I siad Why not just tell this teen to find the church they want to join and get baptized there? In fact, I said it twice. So I didn't ignore it; I said, Solve it. Find the church you want to be a member of and get baptized and join there. [/QB]
Again, why not allow her to be obedient in the first manner until she's made a decision on the 2nd?
Surely you can see the two aren't tied together.
One can be obedient to baptism even before one is obedient to church membership while one evaluates the "word, circumstances, and desires" in order to find God's will about the church.
Why put off obedience?
