Age of accountability and abortion

[APuritanMindset]

I am not asking this question to cause issues, but here is another delimma we as Christians run into if the age of accountability is true. If it is true that a child that dies in infancy goes to heaven, why are we against abortion? Yes, I agree that abortion is murder, but why are we against this form of murder? Wouldn't the good outweigh the bad in this situation?

 

[bapmom]

Its wrong because it is taking that decision of life or death into our own hands when it is not an issue of meting out justice for wrongdoing according to the law......

I first think of how God used the heathen nations to judge Israel's disobedience, yet He still held those nations responsible for their having fought against Israel. The judgement of Israel was deserved (good) but God still considered the other nations to be doing wrong in it.

We leave such decisions as life and death of innocents in the hands of God.

 

[Petrel]

If it's ok to kill an unborn baby because he or she will go to heaven, then it ought to be ok to kill an adult Christian because he or she will go to heaven.

It's not the destination of the soul that determines whether it's right or wrong to kill.

 

[Paul33]

Satan isn't stupid. I'm not at all convinced that children necessarily go to heaven if they die before the "age of accountability."

1 Cor. 7:14 seems to imply that the faith of one parent makes the children "holy." Perhaps, the children of believers go to heaven if they die as infants, and the children of unbelievers don't.

I don't know. But I do know that God foreknows those who are his and has promised that his elect will be called, justified, sanctified, and glorified.

 

[APuritanMindset]

Originally posted by Paul33:
Satan isn't stupid. I'm not at all convinced that children necessarily go to heaven if they die before the "age of accountability."

1 Cor. 7:14 seems to imply that the faith of one parent makes the children "holy." Perhaps, the children of believers go to heaven if they die as infants, and the children of unbelievers don't.

I don't know. But I do know that God foreknows those who are his and has promised that his elect will be called, justified, sanctified, and glorified.

This seems to be the best answer of any of the questions that I have asked regarding age of accountability. It's also nice to know that U am not the only one who has that stance on this board.

 

[Helen]

Suppose, let's just SUPPOSE (and this is a wrong supposition, but I need it to make a point) that it is OK to abort babies because we know they will go to heaven.

We have just made murderers out of all the adults involved, including the mothers.
At the VERY least, that is what is wrong about abortion!

But the fact is that it is God who is in charge of life and death. No conception is an accident to Him, although it may be to us. He knows what He is doing. Period.

 

[Craigbythesea]

If the doctrine of the age of accountability is true, that all babies go to heaven, simple logic tells us very clearly that we should kill all babies because, if we do not, some of them will reach the age of accountability, sin, and go to hell for eternity!!!

What could possibly be more cruel in the sight of God than to allow a baby, who has a guaranteed free ticket to heaven, to grow up and spend eternity in hell!

This simple and plain logic should show everyone that the doctrine of the age of accountability is not only a totally false doctrine, but that it is also the most grossly absurd doctrine than has ever been taught by man!

 

[Helen]

So you are willing to make murderers of the rest of us, and then also tell God He doesn't know what He is doing when a baby is conceived?

That is something I can no way go for, Craig!

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Helen:
So you are willing to make murderers of the rest of us, and then also tell God He doesn't know what He is doing when a baby is conceived?

That is something I can no way go for, Craig!

God is NOT the God of the absurd and the ridiculous; therefore the doctrine of the age of accountability can NOT be a true doctrine!

You can NOT show anywhere in the Bible that God is not logical; nor can you show from any logic model that the logic that I used in my argument does not result exclusively in the conclusion that I have drawn.

 

[APuritanMindset]

Originally posted by Helen:
So you are willing to make murderers of the rest of us, and then also tell God He doesn't know what He is doing when a baby is conceived?

That is something I can no way go for, Craig!

The aborting of infants would be justifiable, though, if one held strictly to the age of accountability. It wouldn't be murder but salvation for we would be assuring their place in heaven.

As for saying that God doesn't know what He is doing when a baby is conceived, I am not sure how one would get around that.

But from a purely logical standpoint, abortion is not such a gross thing if age of accountability be true. Which also means that we would have no right to argue against it on the grounds of the harm done to the baby in an abortion.

 

[Helen]

Abortion is murder. "Thou shalt not murder" cancels that argument before you guys start. It doesn't matter about any other thing, actually.

However, both of you are trying to use man's logic against God's Word. The only time we are told to use logic theologically is in Isaiah 1 where we are told to come reason with the Lord so that we can realize the state of our sinfulness.

That, by the way, is something no child could do, as children are not capable of logic to that extent.

You may not LIKE the idea of an age of accountability, but the Bible indicates there is one, regardless of our feelings one way or the other about it.

In the meantime, getting back to this thread, even IF all babies were to go to heaven, (whether or not any of us believes that one way or the other), the idea of aborting them for that reason makes the rest of us murderers. As a child of God that is something I find abhorrent in the fullest sense. I know God knows what He is doing when a child is conceived. I know Him enough to trust Him implicitely in this and other issues. And I know Him enough to know that the commandment to not murder is still in effect and also applies to babies.

Taking the reverse, however, that some babies are born to go to hell no matter what, you have then just presented us with a deity who does NOT love the world, and probably loves a lot of little kids a lot less then their own parents love them.

That is not the God I know and worship and live for.

 

[Craigbythesea]

If the doctrine of eternal security and the doctrine of the age of accountability as you are presenting it, are both true doctrines, all Christian parents should enjoy their children until right up to the day before their 20th birthday and then kill them and have an absolute guarantee that their who family will be together in heaven. After all, if they allow their children to reach 20 years of age, some of them may perish in hell—and that would be infinitely worse than being “murdered” by loving parents who wish to spare their children from spending eternity in the fires of hell.

Most obviously, therefore, the Bible does NOT teach that all babies and children go to heaven.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Helen wrote,

However, both of you are trying to use man's logic against God's Word. The only time we are told to use logic theologically is in Isaiah 1 where we are told to come reason with the Lord so that we can realize the state of our sinfulness.

Logic is a gift from God, and there is no difference between “man’s logic” and God’s logic. And Jesus, Himself, implored those who were seeking to kill Him to think logically and thus realize that he was indeed the Son of God.

John 10:22. At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem;
23. it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.
24. The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."
25. Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
26. "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30. "I and the Father are one."
31. The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.
32. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"
33. The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."
34. Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?
35. "If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
36. do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
37. "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
38. but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

 

[Helen]

Yup, let's make murderers out of all parents.

Let's tell God He doesn't know what He is doing when He gives life to people.

Let's pretend we have the right to decide about life and death, using our own logic instead of obedience to God (that's sort of like what Eve did, isn't it?)

And let's pretend that Jesus was lying when He said the children are His.

You have a scary theology, Craig.

 

[Helen]

There is no difference between man's logic and God's logic????? (By the way, the example you raised did have to do with sin and salvation, which is exactly what Isaiah 1 was dealing with when we read "Come, let us reason together..." And just because Jesus chooses to use their own logic against them does not invalidate Isaiah 55, quotes here)


For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways," declares the Lord.
"As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts."
Isaiah 55:8-9

What is really interesting are the verses IMMEDIATELY preceding that, written as though they were anticipating Calvinism and refuting it before it was started:

Seek the Lord while he may be found/
call on him while he is near.
Let the wicked forsake his way
and the evil man his thoughts.
Let him turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him,
and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

But back to the thread, I prefer that we stick with obeying God and not making parents and doctors into murderers on the pretext of saving the children, OK?

Thanks, anyway...

 

[KenH]

I agree with those who understand - correctly - thet the Bible does not teach an "age of accountability".

 

[Helen]

It does teach that, but indirectly. Jesus said the children are His. Those below the age of 20 were not held accountable for rebellion in the wilderness in Exodus. Bible explains Bible.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Helen:
It does teach that, but indirectly. Jesus said the children are His. Those below the age of 20 were not held accountable for rebellion in the wilderness in Exodus. Bible explains Bible.

That explanation doesn't work, Helen. Remember, God commanded that all of the Canaanites, including those under the age of 20, were to be destroyed. He didn't exempt those under the age of 20.

 

[Helen]

That is the same as all in the Flood being killed regardless of age and all in Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. But the Hebrews are people He has used as a specific picture to us with explanations included.

There is a clue in the Sodom and Gomorrah story, however, which is also hinted at about the antediluvian world in Genesis 6. Evil and wickedness and violence had become absolutely pervasive. It is interesting to recall the conversation between Abraham and the Visitor before the destruction of Sodom. Remember that 'bargaining' scene? If only 50 righteous people are left? If less than 50? If only TEN righteous people are found there?...

But not even ten.

What is important about all that is that is shows us the effect just a few righteous people can have on a population. If there are not a few righteous people left, then how will any of the children be exposed to the alternative to the violence and horror they grow up with in their culture? If they have no choice, then that stops any possibility for them after they do reach the age of accountability, doesn't it?

So God calls them home.

Because every person who has died spiritually gets a choice about his eternal destiny.

It appears, if you look at that conversation with Abraham and if you look at the comments before the Flood, and then if you compare it with Paul's words to Timothy in 2 Timothy 3 about these last days and look at the instruction in the rest of the Bible as well, that God will not destroy a civilization until there is no chance for the children to have a chance later.

So the instruction we get regarding the time in the desert with the Israelites and the fact that those 20 and over are held accountable to God while those under 20 are not, we get an idea of how and why God is doing what He is doing and how HE sees us.

 

[KenH]

Sorry, Helen, but that dog just won't hunt.

Not that I think in the long run this argument over an "age of accountability" really matters. Salvation is not based on the luck of the draw(whether one dies young enough before being "accountable" or in the right circumstances). Salvation is not a random event.