Age of accountability and abortion

[Helen]

I'm sorry, too, but that is just letting Bible explain Bible.

Age of accountability has nothing to do with any luck of any draw. That is what Reformation theology espouses -- you are either born to be saved or born to go to hell and there is nothing you can do about it, according to them. That is 'luck of the draw.'

But God so loved the world that He gave His Son for ALL of us, to pay for ALL sin for ALL time. No sin is left unatoned for, and there is no insult to God, as a result, which will survive through eternity. All is taken care of. It is what we choose to do about that which makes the difference, and there is no luck involved in that at all. We are each presented with enough truth to choose to follow that truth, which will lead us to Christ (see John 6) or to reject and suppress that truth, choosing creation over the creator, which will consign us to hell, see Romans 1.

The Bible is cohesive. It explains itself. The words "Choose this day whom you will serve" have real meaning. It is not a rhetorical question. God plea to 'come, let us reason together' is a real invitation, not a rhetorical question.

The Bible is not a rhetorical Book! We do have a choice. There is nothing random about salvation at all.

And, to get back to the thread, just because the babies and children are His, as He told us, will NEVER give anyone the right to murder them! God has a plan for each of their lives, whether they choose to follow Him or not, and He WILL be glorified in it all.

You can trust that.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by APuritanMindset:
I am not asking this question to cause issues, but here is another delimma we as Christians run into if the age of accountability is true. If it is true that a child that dies in infancy goes to heaven, why are we against abortion? Yes, I agree that abortion is murder, but why are we against this form of murder? Wouldn't the good outweigh the bad in this situation?

I wondered when someone would make the connection here.

Petrel said:

If it's ok to kill an unborn baby because he or she will go to heaven, then it ought to be ok to kill an adult Christian because he or she will go to heaven.

It's not the destination of the soul that determines whether it's right or wrong to kill.

Except that it is said an adult Christian can never lose His standing in Christ. Children can!! No one would be doing a good thing as much as they would be preventing a greater evil.

I find it amusing that to counter this obvious and logical conclusion to the all-babies-go-to-heaven theology, Helen is arguing like a Calvinist.

 

[bapmom]

The only countering to that argument would be that we do not take the decision of who lives or dies into our own hands, like we said before.

Yes, it would be a logical conclusion IF you feel like its ok for you to decide life and death instead of God. BUT, since we "allow" God to be sovereign, we realize that us making that choice to kill a baby is not right.

We have no right to decide that....only God does. And only God has the right to decide if babies go to heaven, and only God has the right to say, "Ok, now you understand, so now you have to choose....Jesus or not Jesus."

 

[Helen]

Thanks, bapmom.

 

[Petrel]

Originally posted by Aaron:
Except that it is said an adult Christian can never lose His standing in Christ. Children can!! No one would be doing a good thing as much as they would be preventing a greater evil.

Since when did we become utilitarians?

 

[Paul33]

Originally posted by Helen:

Taking the reverse, however, that some babies are born to go to hell no matter what, you have then just presented us with a deity who does NOT love the world, and probably loves a lot of little kids a lot less then their own parents love them.

That is not the God I know and worship and live for.

No babies are born to go to hell "no matter what."

All of us are born in sin. All of us deserve to die. None of us can save ourselves. God foreknew all of this and decreed that Jesus would die for every person's sin before the foundation of the world. God provided the solution to sin. God lifted up Jesus Christ drawing all men to himself. Salvation is from God, and if we do "nothing," that is we stop rebelling, God will save us from our sins by his own merit. If we persist in rebellion, despite the drawing of God, we are passed over. All of this by the mind of God before anything was created.

Therefore, no baby is born to go to hell no matter what. Some go to hell because God foreknew some to be in a state of persistent rebellion of their own free will. Just because God is God and cannot help but know the future state of potential persons does not mean that God is responsible for their future actions.

 

[Paul33]

Originally posted by Helen:
I'm sorry, too, but that is just letting Bible explain Bible.

Age of accountability has nothing to do with any luck of any draw. That is what Reformation theology espouses -- you are either born to be saved or born to go to hell and there is nothing you can do about it, according to them. That is 'luck of the draw.'

But God so loved the world that He gave His Son for ALL of us, to pay for ALL sin for ALL time. No sin is left unatoned for, and there is no insult to God, as a result, which will survive through eternity. All is taken care of. It is what we choose to do about that which makes the difference, and there is no luck involved in that at all. We are each presented with enough truth to choose to follow that truth, which will lead us to Christ (see John 6) or to reject and suppress that truth, choosing creation over the creator, which will consign us to hell, see Romans 1.

The Bible is cohesive. It explains itself. The words "Choose this day whom you will serve" have real meaning. It is not a rhetorical question. God plea to 'come, let us reason together' is a real invitation, not a rhetorical question.

The Bible is not a rhetorical Book! We do have a choice. There is nothing random about salvation at all.

And, to get back to the thread, just because the babies and children are His, as He told us, will NEVER give anyone the right to murder them! God has a plan for each of their lives, whether they choose to follow Him or not, and He WILL be glorified in it all.

You can trust that.

Even John Calvin didn't believe what you just said reformation theology teaches. Read Calvin's commentary on John 3:16!

 

[KenH]

The "age of accountability" advocates are left to only try to infer that their position comes from the Bible. They cannot prove it.

 

[Helen]

Ken, you are simply declaring it is wrong without dealing with any of the verses which say it is true! Your declaration does not make it a fact.

Paul, I know Calvin did not say what I said Reformation theology teaches. But the final conclusion from Calvinism/Reformation theology is just that. It simply stops short of that horrid conclusion by saying God knew ahead of time that these kids WOULD sin and rebel and not repent later, so they go to hell.

For something they never did.

That directly contradicts the Bible, which calls each man accountable for what he HAS done. "The soul that sins will die."

Babies do not sin. They may have sin natures, but they have not yet got the mental capacity to choose to sin. And NNE is held responsible for what he is born with. We are held responsible for what we do with it when we are of a time of life that we actually have a choice about what to do with it!

That is what Paul is saying in Romans 7. That is what God was dealing with in the wilderness when He chose the age of 20 as the age at which HE was holding the rebels accountable.

I did not choose that age, He did.

 

[KenH]

Helen, you earlier stated that your position is only indirectly shown in the Bible.

By the way, are you really saying that a 19-year old person who dies goes to Heaven even if he has never come to Jesus in repentance and faith while he was on this earth?

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by KenH:
The "age of accountability" advocates are left to only try to infer that their position comes from the Bible. They cannot prove it.

So you question David's response that he would go to where his son is? Where is that, in your opinion?

 

[KenH]

All babies that die go to Heaven and they go the same way the rest of us do - by the grace of God - not based on age.

 

[Helen]

Of course it's by the grace of God! I don't think anyone here has argued about that at all!

 

[webdog]

Agreed, Kenh. But at what point is one no longer a baby (which according to your own admission, "all" go to Heaven) and has to exercise or have the ability to have faith?

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by webdog:
But at what point is one no longer a baby (which according to your own admission, "all" go to Heaven) and has to exercise or have the ability to have faith?

I have no idea. I suspect that it is different for different folks depending on mental ability to distinguish right from wrong. There are some people who never reach an "age of accountability" as they never have the mental capacity to be responsible as most of us are. Therefore, as far as going to Heaven is concerned those folks are always in the same position as a baby.

 

[webdog]

I get from your post you believe there is an age, but it varies individually (mental retardation never reaches this age).

My question is, what then do you mean by this:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by KenH:
The "age of accountability" advocates are left to only try to infer that their position comes from the Bible. They cannot prove it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Helen:
Yup, let's make murderers out of all parents.

Let's tell God He doesn't know what He is doing when He gives life to people.

Let's pretend we have the right to decide about life and death, using our own logic instead of obedience to God (that's sort of like what Eve did, isn't it?)

And let's pretend that Jesus was lying when He said the children are His.

You have a scary theology, Craig.

My theology, which is the theology of the early church fathers and the very large majority of Christians today, is that the Bible makes no guarantee of any kind whatsoever that all babies go to heaven. Therefore, we have no logical reason to kill our children or abort our babies and EVERY reason to obey God and His Word. Your theology, on the other hand, if taken to its logical consequences, demands that we kill our children and abort our babies so that they will have no chance of spending eternity in the fires of hell, and the commandments of God are, thereby, made irrelevant.

 

[Helen]

That's bizarre, Craig, and I have already responded to that, as anyone reading this thread can see.

Whatever anyone else said, Jesus said the children are His. That's enough for me.

See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven...Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.
Matthew 18:10, 19:14

However, if you want to argue that saying all children go to heaven means abortion is OK, then that is up to you. But that means that you are condoning making parents and doctors murderers, and that you are telling God that your ideas are better than His plans for who is alive and when.

Not a position I would want to be in when facing my Lord.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Helen wrotee,

There is no difference between man's logic and God's logic????? (By the way, the example you raised did have to do with sin and salvation, which is exactly what Isaiah 1 was dealing with when we read "Come, let us reason together..." And just because Jesus chooses to use their own logic against them does not invalidate Isaiah 55, quotes here)

Can you post just one example from the Bible where the logic of God is any different than the logic of man if one does not violate the rules of logic? And what kind of logic was Jesus imploring those unregenerate Jews who were seeking to kill him to use—the logic of men or the logic of God? Let’s get real here!

 

[Major B]

1.Background: The Basic Truths

a.God

(1)God is absolute, and whatever He says is true
(2)Whatever God does is right
(3)God’s will and justice may not be challenged by man—Rom 9:18-20
(4)God is merciful and loving: He defines what that means

b.Man and sin

(1)All are sinners from birth—Ps 58:3
(2)There is only one way to salvation, no exceptions, no excuses—Jn 14:6, Acts 4:12
(3)All human beings are incapable of acceptable moral or spiritual understanding, whatever our age or ability—1 Cor 2:14
(4)There is nothing in us or of us or from us which is acceptable to God – Rom 7:18
(5)Our spiritual and moral inability is no excuse before God

c.The problem:

(1)Well-meaning people who inject human ideas
(2)Mean-spirited people who inject human ideas
(3)The Bible does not have a lot to say on this (but it has enough)

d.What are God’s ways of revealing Himself?

(1)Natural Revelation (Ps 19:1-6)
(2)Written Revelation (Ps 19:7-12)
(3)The ways of Providence
(4)Direct revelation

2.What is accountability?

a.It consists of God holding a human being responsible before Him.
b. The Bible uniformly teaches that we will give an account to God.

(1)All will give account—Mat 12:36-37
(2) Believers will account to God for their Christian walk, at the Judgment Seat of Christ—Rom 14:10-12
(3) The Lost of the world give account at the Great White Throne—Rev 20:11-15.

3.What is a person accountable to God for?

a.The Law—Rom 3:19-20
(1)Define Law (briefly)
(2)Four uses of Law in Romans
(a)Law as in Torah
(b)Law as in The Bible in general
(c)Law as in Conscience—Rom 2:16
(d)Law as the general principle, whether written or not

(3)Law = God’s declared will for how we are to live how we are to worship Him.
(4)The Jews (and now the Christians) have God’s law written
(5)The unreached (then and now) have the Law written on the table of the heart.
b.The Person of God—Rom 1:19-20
c. The Gospel (if they have heard it).

4.When is a person accountable to God?

a.When they are old enough and sharp enough that God says they should be able to detect His Attributes in nature.
b.Rom 1:19-20

5.Questions that trouble people

a.What about those who die unaccountable (the unborn, the infant, the very young child, and those with serious mental developmental difficulties)?

(1)They do not fall under the category of those who are “without excuse.”
(2)God has saved the unborn and the very small in the past:
(a)John The Baptist—Luke 1:15
(b)Jeremiah—Jer 1:4-5
(c)David—Ps 22:10
(d)David’s first child by Bathsheba

(3)God will always do what is right—the unaccountable are safe.

b.What about those who have never heard the Gospel?

(1)If they are among those without excuse, they are without excuse—Rom 1:19-20
(2)Their responsibility will extend to what they did know: Luke 12:36-48