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Age of Accountability--Biblical or Mythical??
- Thread starter Frogman
- Start date
Oh Me2, you said it so clearly. Thank you. It is true. Christ is either the Lord of all or not Lord at all. And we KNOW that isn't true. He is the One. We - all of us - have been purchased with His precious blood. He came to seek and to save that which is lost - AND WE ARE (((((ALL))))))) lost without Him. And He loses NONE. With God all things are possible. He can do it. So whose God is Almighty I'd like to ask those who believe that He can lose anything or those who believe that even one could be lost?Originally posted by Me2:
Frogman,
I think that you do not understand "universal reconciliation".
Is it possible that you have mixed up the use of "unitarian universalism" and christian "universal reconciliation".
"universal reconciliation" focuses on the sacrifice of Jesus and the taking of the sins of man as orthodox christianity does. some believers, such as the elect are "called" of Christ as he forms his body.
yet most orthodox christianity states that God eternally condemns the remainder of his creation, not considered being called "in christ" in their present "physical life".
you and I know that God doesnt call all men in this age.
So we would presume under the orthodox christianities guidelines that they would be condemned to be tormented in some "hell" and not to be further considered to become a part "in Christ" after their physical death.
that presents many inconsistencies in our views of God and his promises to mankind.
namely that God intentionally planned that some men to be eternally saved and some to be eternally tormented. thats silly.
it would emphatically prove God both not perfect and not sovereign.
that Jesus didnt die for all sin.
that Jesus is not lord, as death and hell would be more powerful.
that God is not Agape love (as proven in his interractions towards his creation).
if God doesnt treat all men alike it would make his word meaningless, as he would be lying to man.
he would be making promises to others, only to find out that weaker forces that are against him, can and do, defeat his plans and his promises that he makes to others.
the doctrine of eternal torment, or eternal condemnation defies the nature, will and plans of God towards his creation.
taking into view these verses Ive just posted I'll
ask a question. one in which any human being would expect a reasonable God to request..
one concerning equality...
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
"let us make man in our image".
Is the image of man "in christ" ?.
if one human being doesnt acheive the REALITY of Gods intended "image" of being "in Christ".
Does God fail, or misrepresent his word to himself or to any human being ?
Would God lie towards making ALL MEN into "this image" of being made "in christ". by failing to "save" all but one "undeserving" soul?
"universal reconciliation" states that God (if required) will spend an eternity receiving "all" into himself and losing none.
while orthodox christianity teaches that most of Gods creation will be eternally tormented and forever seperated from the God and his Love.
IMHO, every human beings moment of judgement is between them and God. and that they will be surprised to find that Jesus paid their debt..just like mine. that the verdict will be sins forgiven.
most people should check out "universal reconciliation". a simple doctrine whereas sinners are not eternally seperated from God.
Me2
He saves to the uttermost!
All glory praise and honor to Him. For we can do nothing without Him!
Loveya, GH
He is worthy of praise. Hallelujah! \o/
My Jesus, my Savior
Lord there is none like You!
All of my days, I want to praise
The wonders of Your mighty love.
My Comfort, my Shelter
Tower of Refuge and Strength.
Let every breath - all that I am
Never cease to worship You.
Shout to the LORD all the earth let us sing!
Power and majesty praise to the King.
Mountains bow down and the seas will roar
At the sound of Your Name.
I sing for joy at the work of Your hand.
Forever I’ll love You.
Forever I’ll stand.
Nothing compares to the promise I have in You.
Rev. 20:
Jerimiah 17:
This thread is not about universalism, but since the connection has been imagined in accordance with the question asked we can go on with it, but we must consider the following question, or else while we may speak of not hearing the tradition of men, we are overlooking the fact that we can hear no man and yet our very hearts are able to decieve us.
Jerimiah 17:
What is for ever and ever?
Frogman,
if Jesus has destroyed death. proving his power of life is greater than the power of death.(1Co 15:26)
the second death is the "death of death".
or all forms of death being swallowed up "In Life"
the activity of death being "thrown into this lake" is called the second death.(rev 20:13-14)
the "death of death", or the "swallowing up of death, by the life of Christ" is the process of "destroying the power of death, within the lake of fire" which is called the "second death".
simply said.
all men who are under the curse of death, and are being placed "within the life of christ".
(1 cor 15:22)
questions arising within revelations symbols is, what is the lake of fire and brimstone ?...
its the holy spirit.
where the overcomers are called "ministers of fire".
where Gods "passionate wrath" exists.
where his passionate love for all of his creation exists.
Gods activities are seen here as all mankind is to be found "in the spirt" and being ministered to by the activities of the overcomers.
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Gods not finished yet. He preparing his creation to be loved by his sons of God...his Overcomers.
In ages to come.
where death doesnt exist anymore.
(rev 21:4)
within eternal life, "in christ"
Me2
and age of accountability as men describe it is still a myth.
if Jesus has destroyed death. proving his power of life is greater than the power of death.(1Co 15:26)
the second death is the "death of death".
or all forms of death being swallowed up "In Life"
the activity of death being "thrown into this lake" is called the second death.(rev 20:13-14)
the "death of death", or the "swallowing up of death, by the life of Christ" is the process of "destroying the power of death, within the lake of fire" which is called the "second death".
simply said.
all men who are under the curse of death, and are being placed "within the life of christ".
(1 cor 15:22)
questions arising within revelations symbols is, what is the lake of fire and brimstone ?...
its the holy spirit.
where the overcomers are called "ministers of fire".
where Gods "passionate wrath" exists.
where his passionate love for all of his creation exists.
Gods activities are seen here as all mankind is to be found "in the spirt" and being ministered to by the activities of the overcomers.
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Gods not finished yet. He preparing his creation to be loved by his sons of God...his Overcomers.
In ages to come.
where death doesnt exist anymore.
(rev 21:4)
within eternal life, "in christ"
Me2
and age of accountability as men describe it is still a myth.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Me2, you are saying that Satan, Satan's demons, the False Prophet, the man of perdition, and all who lack faith in God; all of whom are at the opposite extreme from God in His HOLY GLORY, are cast into the HOLY SPIRIT!...???? Give us a break Me2. That which is unholy cannot coexist with that which is HOLY else there is no division between them! You cannot infuse a pure liquid with impurity without altering the purity of that liquid. Spirituality is exactly the same, you cannot take a pure HOLY SPIRIT, infuse it with that which is impurity and have it remain pure HOLY SPIRIT.
I agree with Yelsew in this point he has made. I will stand on the Biblical statement that Christ stood as the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world to redeem those who have faith in him as their kinsman redeemer. While I believe only the elect will have faith, I find the scripture explicitly teaches those dying without faith in Christ are without Christ, having not the spirit of Christ, they are none of his.
What you are stating is the fact that all who are born of woman shall live in an eternal existence with a resurrected body. I do not dispute this, it is fact. I deny that all who are in this second death will ever be able to be brought out. This second death is not the Holy Spirit it is the manifestation of the wrath of God which the scripture I posted from Jeremiah declares to be a fire burning for ever.
You have not answered to the question of what for ever is. You must answer this question. If it is not for ever as I receive it, then what is eternal?
is the age of accountability a myth? Yes. Why? because even as this universalism it is not supported in Scripture.
Bro. Dallas
What you are stating is the fact that all who are born of woman shall live in an eternal existence with a resurrected body. I do not dispute this, it is fact. I deny that all who are in this second death will ever be able to be brought out. This second death is not the Holy Spirit it is the manifestation of the wrath of God which the scripture I posted from Jeremiah declares to be a fire burning for ever.
You have not answered to the question of what for ever is. You must answer this question. If it is not for ever as I receive it, then what is eternal?
is the age of accountability a myth? Yes. Why? because even as this universalism it is not supported in Scripture.
Bro. Dallas
Yelsew,
God is infinite.
God cannot seperate himself from his creation.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
darkness is a creation of God
unless you believe in annihilation.
why are you considering satan to have any greater power against you?.
didnt Jesus prove Satan powerless towards you?
darkness will still exists.
only in a powerless state.
Me2
God is infinite.
God cannot seperate himself from his creation.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
darkness is a creation of God
unless you believe in annihilation.
why are you considering satan to have any greater power against you?.
didnt Jesus prove Satan powerless towards you?
darkness will still exists.
only in a powerless state.
Me2
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Me2, you said,
Me2, The lake of fire is not the source of life as you have described it, it is the cause of death of the human spirit along with all evil spirits. The human spirit's departure from the flesh is the first death, the casting of the faithless human spirit into the lake of fire is the second death...it is terminal and final, and that fate is eternal, meaning that it will not exist for the rest of eternity. No life that is cast into the lake of fire will exist after the "passing away of this heaven and earth".
There is another perspective in Revelation.
Then in Revelation 21, this present heaven and earth had passed away. This present heaven and earth contained a "lake of Fire" into which evil and the faithless were cast. "Then I saw a new heaven and earth appeared, but no where in the description of the New Heaven and Earth is there even a hint of a Lake of fire. It too "had passed away" for all eternity, never to appear again at any point in eternity. Spirit is eternal. The lake of fire is the FINAL destination for all EVIL and FAITHLESS beings who were part of this present heaven and earth. It is the only place in God's creation where spirit can be "killed", thus it is called the second death.
Me2, The lake of fire is not the source of life as you have described it, it is the cause of death of the human spirit along with all evil spirits. The human spirit's departure from the flesh is the first death, the casting of the faithless human spirit into the lake of fire is the second death...it is terminal and final, and that fate is eternal, meaning that it will not exist for the rest of eternity. No life that is cast into the lake of fire will exist after the "passing away of this heaven and earth".
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Then you deny the scriptures that describe heaven as a place where no darkness exists.
I don't know who taught you all this garbage you are believing enough to post it publically, but you need to cast those teachings aside, they are baggage that keeps you from knowing the truth.
Yelsew,
If your Going to read revelations. Please allow the Holy Spirit to interpret it for you.
Revelations is a book about the Unveiling of the Lord Jesus Christ in symbols.
the veils are over believers eyes and ears. If God allows you to see what the symbols mean, then so be it.the book is about your life. an overcomer
it is a book of absolutes. spoken of and from the context of timlessness. an overall picture of the salvation of Gods creation found through his Son.
it is about the reconciliation of all things.
starting with the lives of 200 billion of Gods children. born in death. conquered and rendered powerless by the Lord Jesus Christ. all enemies rendered powerless. all mankind made sons and daughters of God the father. by their death and resurrection "in Christ"
as seen through the active work of Christ in his Body..the overcomers.
the lake of fire is not a "physical" part of earth.
it is the work of the holy spirit as we are given opportunity to learn of the works of the flesh and carnal spirit. a place of the rfinement of our comprehension of the nature of God. a place where we choose what is glorifying to God and kept as a reward and where the works of our carnal spirit is uncovered and destroyed.
we are being refined as silver, as gold. a place where wood, hay and stubble is burned.
we are becoming sons of God today.. but you say, what about all others. will they eventually receive the same from God as equal sons and daughters in christ. all mankind will become sons and daughters in christ, and in the completed image the were created to be.
Life does not end after our period in these bodies of flesh. It continues on. wether you choose to become a part of it. it is your choice.
a heaven that contains no darkness. simply means that light and darkness are one.
absolute.
as God is in a state of timelessness.
the spirit realm is a state of timelessness.
we are slowly comprehending ourselves in a state of time and timelessness.
according to Gods pace of teaching us how they operate.
Me2
If your Going to read revelations. Please allow the Holy Spirit to interpret it for you.
Revelations is a book about the Unveiling of the Lord Jesus Christ in symbols.
the veils are over believers eyes and ears. If God allows you to see what the symbols mean, then so be it.the book is about your life. an overcomer
it is a book of absolutes. spoken of and from the context of timlessness. an overall picture of the salvation of Gods creation found through his Son.
it is about the reconciliation of all things.
starting with the lives of 200 billion of Gods children. born in death. conquered and rendered powerless by the Lord Jesus Christ. all enemies rendered powerless. all mankind made sons and daughters of God the father. by their death and resurrection "in Christ"
as seen through the active work of Christ in his Body..the overcomers.
the lake of fire is not a "physical" part of earth.
it is the work of the holy spirit as we are given opportunity to learn of the works of the flesh and carnal spirit. a place of the rfinement of our comprehension of the nature of God. a place where we choose what is glorifying to God and kept as a reward and where the works of our carnal spirit is uncovered and destroyed.
we are being refined as silver, as gold. a place where wood, hay and stubble is burned.
we are becoming sons of God today.. but you say, what about all others. will they eventually receive the same from God as equal sons and daughters in christ. all mankind will become sons and daughters in christ, and in the completed image the were created to be.
Life does not end after our period in these bodies of flesh. It continues on. wether you choose to become a part of it. it is your choice.
a heaven that contains no darkness. simply means that light and darkness are one.
absolute.
as God is in a state of timelessness.
the spirit realm is a state of timelessness.
we are slowly comprehending ourselves in a state of time and timelessness.
according to Gods pace of teaching us how they operate.
Me2
frogman,
your confusing some previous posts.
God created from his image. together his purpose in creation began as it was fully expressed as complete light. does God need light? dark? No!
yet in its creation, it does represent a voice. the communicating factor. his teaching tool.
this is for our benefit of learning.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
this is a recognition to the complete knowledge of Gods creation. from light. God seperates dark.
creating light and dark...space!
creating day and night...Time!
yet at the same instance we get the knowledge of Good and evil. the knowledge of..seperated.
light, good. dark, evil..yet both are needed in Gods plan of Creating his image of his sons and daughters. one part used in contrast to explain and define the other.
if life is present without the potential for the existence of Death. will death exist or have a purpose? i cant answer this, yet we can derive at its powerlessness. evil..the same.
as a thought in Gods mind. never again to become a power other than its residing dormant potential (memory).
what you referred to from to in john is the ideas presented from within the tabernacle and its environment and conditions. we meet together inside the tabernacle. we stand in front of the candlesticks as it is emitting its light (representing the Glory of God)
if we stand in front of the light. we continue to fellowship. if we sin...we shouldnt even be fellowshiping..not inside the tabernacle, in the light, because were unclean. OT stuff.
John is also speaking to spiritual children..they can comprehend inything of a larger comprehension than what they are being taught.
keeping in mind. the light in genesis is of the father. the light in john represents Jesus the image of man.
the creation picture has both components of the creators light. plus its contrasting opposite..darkness
yet when approaching Jesus, Mans final image. It focuses on light with the absense of Darkness. we could say that the darkness is there. yet now in a subdued dormant stage (past mamory)(or past forgiven work of the flesh).
In God the creator..will darkness exist if not needed or used?..
only in a subdued dormant stage.
back into the recesses of our creators mind.
Me2
your confusing some previous posts.
God created from his image. together his purpose in creation began as it was fully expressed as complete light. does God need light? dark? No!
yet in its creation, it does represent a voice. the communicating factor. his teaching tool.
this is for our benefit of learning.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
this is a recognition to the complete knowledge of Gods creation. from light. God seperates dark.
creating light and dark...space!
creating day and night...Time!
yet at the same instance we get the knowledge of Good and evil. the knowledge of..seperated.
light, good. dark, evil..yet both are needed in Gods plan of Creating his image of his sons and daughters. one part used in contrast to explain and define the other.
if life is present without the potential for the existence of Death. will death exist or have a purpose? i cant answer this, yet we can derive at its powerlessness. evil..the same.
as a thought in Gods mind. never again to become a power other than its residing dormant potential (memory).
what you referred to from to in john is the ideas presented from within the tabernacle and its environment and conditions. we meet together inside the tabernacle. we stand in front of the candlesticks as it is emitting its light (representing the Glory of God)
if we stand in front of the light. we continue to fellowship. if we sin...we shouldnt even be fellowshiping..not inside the tabernacle, in the light, because were unclean. OT stuff.
John is also speaking to spiritual children..they can comprehend inything of a larger comprehension than what they are being taught.
keeping in mind. the light in genesis is of the father. the light in john represents Jesus the image of man.
the creation picture has both components of the creators light. plus its contrasting opposite..darkness
yet when approaching Jesus, Mans final image. It focuses on light with the absense of Darkness. we could say that the darkness is there. yet now in a subdued dormant stage (past mamory)(or past forgiven work of the flesh).
In God the creator..will darkness exist if not needed or used?..
only in a subdued dormant stage.
back into the recesses of our creators mind.
Me2
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Me2, if you are going to use Revelation as proof text, then you must stop adding to the text what is not there!Your inane declaration that I do not have the Holy Spirit is as anti-christ as can be.
Granted, when Revelation was revealed to John, John was not confined by human time, but was in the spirit where time has no meaning. However, spiritual events still do have meaning and that is why events are revealed in a sequential manner...a timeline, if you will. That is, one must hear the word before one can believe the word. Jesus must be revealed to mankind, before man can believe in Jesus.
If Revelation is a book of absolutes as you say, then why don't you believe the absolutes that are revealed?
Have you considered the ramifications of the number "200 billion of God's children"? The population of the earth today as approximately 6 billion humans, children of God or not! The world in more populated today than it has ever been, and the expert "bean counters" estimate that a full one half of all the humans who have ever lived on this earth are alive on the earth today. If one does a generational estimate, it doesn't take much mathmatical ability to understand that the growth and spread of humanity is pyramidal in shape, each generation producing greater numbers than the previous generation.
I did not say that the lake of fire is a "physical" part of the earth, and you know that! The lake of fire is a part of "this present heaven and earth", that is the "environment of God's creation" as it is today.
The lake of fire is NEVER, ANYWHERE IN SCRIPTURE revealed to be, or compared to THE HOLY SPIRIT! It is described in Revelation to be the place of the second death! (Rev 20:14,15) All mankind experiences the first death, the separation of the human spirit from human flesh. However those who came to have faith in Jesus, or in God the Father during this natural life, to DO NOT FACE THE SECOND DEATH, BUT PASS FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE ETERNAL WITH JESUS because of their faith in Jesus. REVELATION 20:14,15 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
God's laws of physics call you a liar, and the truth is not in you. Darkness cannot exist where light shines.
NOT TRUE! God who is spirit exists, and He created time, a state in which Man exists. Man's spirit is born into time, and through faith in the creator, is re-born into eternity through faith by receiving the gift of God that scriptures reveal as "SALVATION". Does God exist in time? ABSOLUTELY, but God is not constrained by time as we created beings are. God exists outside the control of time, is not shaped by time, has no allegience to time, and therefore has dominion over time.
If you are just now beginning to comprehend time, you had better stop trying to teach it! YOU AIN'T GOT A CLUE!
Psa 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light [are] both alike [to thee].
Oh gee Lord, light and dark are ALIKE to you? No one ever taught me that. You don't even hear of this being taught in church as the traditions of men would just love to spread that darkness around freely. Fear is preached from the rooftops. When Your Spirit is alive in one it is always - FEAR NOT. Hey so what, it's all the same to YOU. I praise thee and I thank thee that all things are under Your control AND it is GOOD.
I love you my darling Lord. \o/
Oh gee Lord, light and dark are ALIKE to you? No one ever taught me that. You don't even hear of this being taught in church as the traditions of men would just love to spread that darkness around freely. Fear is preached from the rooftops. When Your Spirit is alive in one it is always - FEAR NOT. Hey so what, it's all the same to YOU. I praise thee and I thank thee that all things are under Your control AND it is GOOD.
I love you my darling Lord. \o/
Y
Yelsew
Guest
The meaning is quite clear. David is saying that God sees all, whether in darkness or light. That is the reason God is not afraid of the dark, like we humans are. That is one of the reasons why God tells us to trust Him, for though we are blind in the dark, He is not.