Age of Accountability--Biblical or Mythical??

[Yelsew]

Groping ?

You have misinterpreted these simple statements.
(1 john 4:2-3) (2 john 1:7-9)

Let me show you why you are wrong!

1 Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Verse 2 starts with the phrase, "Hereby know ye the spirit of God:" Said another way, "Here's the evidence of the spirit of God" or, "Here's how you know the spirits," GET IT?

2 Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

In light of 1 John 4:2&3, it should be obvious to you that the phrase "who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh" is another example of the evidence of lack of Faith in God. And what about, "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God" In other words, "here is the evidence of faith, those who sin, and confess NOT that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, are not of God." You may not be able to see that Me2, because you are refusing to read the scriptures correctly, and therefore you MISSINTERPRET them to say something they do not say.

From the time that Jesus ascended to the Father's right hand, no man has seen Jesus and lived. Even Saul, on the road to Damascus, did not "see Jesus" because Jesus "blinded his eyes". So how do any of us know that Jesus exists? We have the writings of the Eye-witnesses whom Jesus taught, and who faithfully recorded the Words of Jesus for all descending generations. It is the words of Jesus that provide us with the "evidence" that Jesus lives, and what he did while he was among us. It is His words that are the spirit of Christ, He said so

John 6:62&63. (Jesus speaking to his Apostles) "Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

You see the Words of Jesus are His spirit given to us, therefore "FAITH cometh by Hearing and Hearing by the Word of God. For Jesus words are spirit! Whoever accepts the words of Jesus has within them the Spirit of Jesus!

I hope you can, after reading the scriptures correctly, understand what they are saying to you!

 

[Me2]

gb93433,

the verses are referring only to sanctification or conversion

entering into the realms of heaven while still alive in their physical bodies. It is not a reference to the afterlife and the refusal to accept "believers" to enter into the spiritual abode.

"In that day" is a reference to "the day of the lord". "Judgement day" of that particular believer focusing on approval or diapproval of accomplishing a trial of faith or recognition of truth.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


this is referring to the ability to acknowledge Jesus christ as lord. in the sanctification process between the child and young man stage is where the believers is confronted with the reality of recognizing that they themselves have been resurrected "from the dead".

as a "child" believer. the believers recognizes that Jesus has been resurrected and they acknowledge him as their christ.
their propitiator or high priest before the father.
the next stage is for their faith to recognize that Jesus by being resurrected from the dead and has proven himself lord over all enemies and powers.

recognizing this truth. the believer is confronted with the spirit within them which has actually been replaced with that self-same spirit of the lord.
that their new spirit within them is attached to their soul and both have become eternal.

ergo they have been raised from the dead and can now declare Jesus christ..Lord.

faith requires proof.
faith (wisdom) plus works (understanding) creates knowledge (reality).

jesus christ has actually been raised from the dead in your stead. his spirit has been placed into your body of Flesh proving that this spirit is more powerful than all powers. proving him lord.

proof which is followed by the witness

the real profession of Jesus is lord....

heres a truth. those who profess jesus is lord has accomplished this trial signifying this believer into the young man level of understanding.
a sign of an overcomer and of the elect.

the "ability" to profess jesus is Lord.

(not someone calling jesus a title and not knowing what that means "via tangible proof" witnessed by the beholder.)

Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.


these people are "saved", but their trying to violate the proceedures within the process of sanctification.

they have stopped relating to God via faith and begun to follow commandments of men.

mind you that these statements are about beleivers who have not been permitted to relate with God in his abode of truth.."heaven".
this does not mean an ends to their relationship with God. It merely delays it. or interrupts it.

another way of saying it is they began to worship god by faith and they change their approach to worshiping him via law.

and then theres the results...ouch.

like with your mama and dad. you started to act up.got yourself a woopin and ya'll began to "relate once again". they didnt disown you.

remember OSAS

Me2

 

[Me2]

Yelsew,

one little minor point. the spirit is refusing to confess. not the mindset of the individual.

if a "truth" exists within you along side its accompanying evidential proof. the spirit will allow it to surface via an outward expression.

truth has entered an individual by wisdom.
yet without proof or evidence.

the spirit will not allow the expression of the truth because it is unproven.

like the spirit of God..
faith without works is dead.
wisdom without understanding is dead.

the new spirit within us will not speak a falsehood.
even if its the truth yet its without proof.

Me2

 

[Yelsew]

Yelsew,

one little minor point. the spirit is refusing to confess. not the mindset of the individual.

CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING Me2

1 John 4:1. BELOVED, DO not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3. and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichrist, of which you heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world already.

This is not speaking of the spirit within you, but the spirits that are trying to deceive you. John is telling Christians to be wary of the spirits, test them to make sure of their source. Then He explains how to test them, If the spirit says that Jesus came in the flesh, that spirit is of God. But if not, the spirit is not of God, and you must deal with that spirit in the manner that you would deal with anyone who is not of God.

I hope this helps your understanding.

 

[Me2]

Yelsew,

1 John mainly is speaking to believers at the "child" level of understanding. notice the references of the title of Jesus. he's mainly mentioned as christ. not Lord

children cannot go before the father without a mediator. a high priest. they pray to Christ.

short and sweet. remnants of the influences of the antichrist spirit still remain in the mindset of believers.works of the flesh still tugging at our minds and will.
some entering into Gods family are still under the strong suggestions of satan. they will begin living by faith before christ but in time will withdraw from Gods call and envy pride,bitterness,and fear will draw them back into their self righteous mindset.
allowing satan to once again control their thinking...even though they possess the spirit of God within them. they are still under the ILLUSION of being controlled by satan.

these are described elsewhere in the bible as "disobedient" children. the consequences of sin are still effecting them. blinding their eyes and deafening their ears. these are identified within the family as those living under the law to please God.

theres no easy way to accept this other than saying that their are obedient and disobedient children within the family of God. both working against each other to sharpen each others desires to serve God.
another definition between these two "groups" as vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy. both WITHIN the family of God.

John is gingerly speaking to obedient children living by humility before their father. warning them over against the actions and mindset of their disobedient brothers and sisters.

he is telling them to hold onto the truth spoken to them by the holy spirit until they have reach the end of their trials of faith. until the truth is accompanied by the uncovering of evidence or proof needed to solidify their wisdom into reality.

he's telling them what their not. and the truth of his words are being proved in front of their eyes.

and it still goes on today. some see and hear. some are blind. some live by the Faith of God. some live by following the law to please God.

the difference of following the commandments of men vs the commandments of God.

Me2

 

[Yelsew]

Wow, How did you get all that out of 1 John 4:1-3?

You chose to use verses 2 and 3 as proof text to make a point, which you failed miserably at doing. Now you want to bring a whole lot more into this discussion because you did fail at proving you point.

You also miss the context of the environment the "new church" was in. The believers in Israel were subjugated to the ROMANS who were subjugated to many gods and many spirits. The Roman empire controlled the entire Mediterranian region, up into modern day Germany, Spain,, Austria, Switzerland, Greece, Asia minor, including Turkey, Iran, Parts of Iraq, Parts of Arabia, down into Egypt, even into Ethiopia. The Roman influence was everywhere the 1st Century church was struggling to grow. Consequently Roman mythology was everywhere that the church was, and the church was under very great trial ALL THE TIME!

Therefore John is telling his reader to test every spirit that comes along, to make sure of its source. He was not telling them to mistrust their fellow brothers and sisters.

[ October 14, 2003, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

[Me2]

Yelsew,

cmon..John was warning of false prophet misrepresenting the christian God. someone calling themselves brothers. yet they were denying the power of the spirit that was within them. They were denying the presents of the person of christ within them. they were being persecuted by the very law that they were teaching others to follow.

heres the cinch in their armor. they denied the power within them which is loving their fellow brother.

Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Mar 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here [is] Christ; or, lo, [he is] there; believe [him] not:
Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.
Mar 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

do you not recognise these verses. they are speaking of just such circumstances. teachers goning around saying their of God, yet teaching men to deny a personal relationship with the God that is within them (heaven). and follow a list of rules to perform in front of God and their fellow brothers. how do they even know of the laws of God.
(its part of the spirit within them...)
these guys deny a person is inside them because they have refused to learn of the Holy spirit. turned truth into a lie...
their spirits been "regenerated". NOT that the actual spirit of God is WITHIN them.

notice in mark that the false prophets do not fool the elect. why? because the elect know the truth that the spirit is indeed within them. that the power to offer mercy and forgiveness to their fellow brothers is a commandment of God. not as their disobedient brothers who demand everyone around them follow rules with no failures.
in deed if a brother fail and "sins". then of course they have failed at following the rules and are deemed, or judged...unworthy.

the commandments of men can easily be seen in light of the commandments of God.
the elect know the difference.
and they see this being taught of their disobedient brothers. within their own family.

1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.
1Jo 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

false prophets cant fool the elect.
false prophets dont love their brothers and sisters.

and it shows.

Me2

[ October 14, 2003, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

 

[GH]

Originally posted by Me2:
Yelsew,

cmon..John was warning of false prophet misrepresenting the christian God. someone calling themselves brothers. yet they were denying the power of the spirit that was within them. They were denying the presents of the person of christ within them. they were being persecuted by the very law that they were teaching others to follow.

heres the cinch in their armor. they denied the power within them which is loving their fellow brother.

Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Mar 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here [is] Christ; or, lo, [he is] there; believe [him] not:
Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.
Mar 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

do you not recognise these verses. they are speaking of just such circumstances. teachers goning around saying their of God, yet teaching men to deny a personal relationship with the God that is within them (heaven). and follow a list of rules to perform in front of God and their fellow brothers. how do they even know of the laws of God.
(its part of the spirit within them...)
these guys deny a person is inside them because they have refused to learn of the Holy spirit. turned truth into a lie...
their spirits been "regenerated". NOT that the actual spirit of God is WITHIN them.

notice in mark that the false prophets do not fool the elect. why? because the elect know the truth that the spirit is indeed within them. that the power to offer mercy and forgiveness to their fellow brothers is a commandment of God. not as their disobedient brothers who demand everyone around them follow rules with no failures.
in deed if a brother fail and "sins". then of course they have failed at following the rules and are deemed, or judged...unworthy.

the commandments of men can easily be seen in light of the commandments of God.
the elect know the difference.
and they see this being taught of their disobedient brothers. within their own family.

1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.
1Jo 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

false prophets cant fool the elect.
false prophets dont love their brothers and sisters.

and it shows.

Me2

WOW! Well put, Me2

 

[GH]

false prophets cant fool the elect.
false prophets dont love their brothers and sisters.

and it shows.


AND, if I may, I'd like to add:

False prophets try to control and dictate "truth." A true brother or sister encourages personal growth, guiding the little one in Christ to rely only on Him. Allowing him/her to learn and grow and experience (make mistakes/sin) the life in Christ for himself/herself.

We can TRUST GOD to keep us. NO MATTER WHAT!!! We can trust God's abilities to accomplish all that He has set out to do - by the counsel of His own will. And.......it is good \o/

Oh may we receive a sweet savor of Him. A fragrant breeze of Him blowing away the traditions of men and the "isms" of doubt and fear.

Your fellow ambassdor of Christ, GH

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by GH:
false prophets cant fool the elect.
false prophets dont love their brothers and sisters.

and it shows.


AND, if I may, I'd like to add:

False prophets try to control and dictate "truth." A true brother or sister encourages personal growth, guiding the little one in Christ to rely only on Him. Allowing him/her to learn and grow and experience (make mistakes/sin) the life in Christ for himself/herself.

We can TRUST GOD to keep us. NO MATTER WHAT!!! We can trust God's abilities to accomplish all that He has set out to do - by the counsel of His own will. And.......it is good \o/

Oh may we receive a sweet savor of Him. A fragrant breeze of Him blowing away the traditions of men and the "isms" of doubt and fear.

Your fellow ambassdor of Christ, GH

How can you say that GH in light of the command to raise up "a child" in the way he will go, and he will not soon depart from it. If you simply allow "a child in Christ" to stumble his way along, he will become very discouraged and fall away from the faith, his head turned by every wind of doctrine. Get with the program brother or get out of the program! What you have said is very much ANTI-CHRIST!

 

[Yelsew]

Yelsew,

cmon..John was warning of false prophet misrepresenting the christian God. someone calling themselves brothers. yet they were denying the power of the spirit that was within them. They were denying the presents of the person of christ within them. they were being persecuted by the very law that they were teaching others to follow.

heres the cinch in their armor. they denied the power within them which is loving their fellow brother.

In 1 John 4, John was explaining to readers how to test the spirits in the spirit realm. Those spirits that confess that Jesus came in the flesh are spirits of God, those that do not confess that Jesus came in the flesh are not spirits of God. Now what is the definition of such spirits? The way I read it, "spirits" can be any philosophy, writings, spoken word, ideas, concepts, lifestyles, doctrine, dogma, etc., generally anything that influences the mind and spirit of man. John is teaching his readers how to identify the true nature of any and all spirits by which the people are confronted. He says that any spirit, regardless of form, that says that Jesus is God in the flesh is a spirit of God, and that any spirit that does not, or cannot, say that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh is NOT OF GOD. So any philosophy, teaching, doctrine, dogma, etc. that in any way denies that Jesus is God in the flesh is therefore not of God and must be rejected!

In John's first epistle, he is teaching "Christian Life" and if one were to ignore the chapter/verse divisions one would find the following sections in John's letter to believers whom John brought to the Lord, which is why John referres to them as "my little children".

From 1 John 1:5 to 2:28, To Walk in the Light
From 1 John 2:29 to 4:6, To Live as God's children
From 1 John 4:7 to 5:13, the sourced of Love and Faith
From 1 John 5:14 to 5:21, a Prayer for sinners, and a summary of the letter.

Show me in the context of 1 John where those to whom Johns epistles were addressed had done as you say. You are saying that the believers had denied the power of God within themselves, show me where John stated that situation. If you cannot, then you must renounce that condition existed among the "little children" that John has raised up in the church.

Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Mar 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here [is] Christ; or, lo, [he is] there; believe [him] not:
Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.
Mar 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

ONCE AGAIN Me2, CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING! The context for this posted scripture includes Mark 13:3-19, and what you posted derives its meaning from what precedes it.

do you not recognise these verses. they are speaking of just such circumstances. teachers goning around saying their of God, yet teaching men to deny a personal relationship with the God that is within them (heaven). and follow a list of rules to perform in front of God and their fellow brothers. how do they even know of the laws of God. (its part of the spirit within them...) these guys deny a person is inside them because they have refused to learn of the Holy spirit. turned truth into a lie...their spirits been "regenerated". NOT that the actual spirit of God is WITHIN them.

Again, John is warning his reader that the spirit of anti-Christ is present in the world, and that the reader must know how to test those "spirits" of the anti-Christ regardless of the form they present themselves. Any spirit of Anti-Christ cannot confess that Jesus is God in the flesh! The spirit of Jesus within the believer is the words of Jesus, He said so! The Holy Spirit affirms the words of Jesus in the spirit of man. Belief is how the words (spirit) of Jesus manifest themselves in man. Faith (sustained belief) cometh by hearing and hearing by the "word of God". It is not more difficult than that Me2.

notice in mark that the false prophets do not fool the elect. why? because the elect know the truth that the spirit is indeed within them. that the power to offer mercy and forgiveness to their fellow brothers is a commandment of God. not as their disobedient brothers who demand everyone around them follow rules with no failures. in deed if a brother fail and "sins". then of course they have failed at following the rules and are deemed, or judged...unworthy.

What does this have to do with the definition of faith? The reason "the elect" are not fooled, is because "the elect" have the words (spirit) of Jesus the Christ (GOD in the flesh) within them and cannot be fooled by the lie that is the Anti-Christ!

and it shows.

are you accusing again?

You have not yet defined faith. Do you agree or disagree with what I posted regarding the definition of faith? Do you not agree that we should come to agreement on that definition before we press on to other issues?

 

[GH]

How can you say that GH in light of the command to raise up "a child" in the way he will go, and he will not soon depart from it. If you simply allow "a child in Christ" to stumble his way along, he will become very discouraged and fall away from the faith, his head turned by every wind of doctrine. Get with the program brother or get out of the program! What you have said is very much ANTI-CHRIST!

Dear Yelsew,

There is no program - there is only life. And you can't get away from that. Jesus told Peter that he would be taken to places that he would not want to go. No program could support Peter. Only the love of Christ. I'm not talking of a RELIGIOUS SYSTEM. A religious organization. Or a set of commands or rules. I'm talking of a relationship with the Living God. No way can I get out of that, brother. Why do I do the things I do? Because the love of Christ compels me - that is what I taught my children. And I might add, that is the way they go too.

I bless you in that love Yelsew whether I think you're with the program or not.

In Christ's love, GH

 

[Me2]

Yelsew,

what is the definition of such spirits? The way I read it, "spirits" can be any philosophy, writings, spoken word, ideas, concepts, lifestyles, doctrine, dogma, etc., the flesh is NOT OF GOD. So any philosophy, teaching, doctrine, dogma, etc. that in any way denies that Jesus is God in the flesh is therefore not of God and must be rejected!

this is where we differ. as you do from the bible regarding this subject..
Jesus spirit comes to us and enters into our flesh. the verses in the bible with reference to Jesus and a body, are being misinterpreted by you and anyone else who thinks so.

anything less that the spirit of Jesus christ entering into our bodies is vain philosophies of carnal man. The image of man is NO LESS THAN the "mind, body and spirit of Christ". we receive a new spiritual body and spirit at the new birth and we are afterwards replacing our mind with the mind of Christ.

sanctification is the process whereas we recognise those truths. we put on the spiritual body, spirit and mind of Christ. and put off or recognise the death of our old Spiritual Body, Carnal Spirit, and Carnal mindset.

you sir want to degrade this holy process into mental assention and mental aquisition.

"self righteousness at its finest moment".

denying this Holy miracle of God himself to us.

the statements of God is about our spirit recognising their spirits.

they expose themselves by expressing a fake show of mercy and forgiveness. conditional love

true christian express unconditional love as it has been experienced from the implantation of Gods spirit into us and begins to expose itself through us as it unconditionally expresses this same love to others.

another expose of false prophets. the incapability to offer unconditional love to all men.

my mistake, make that ANY man..

clearly one can logically define "in the flesh" as "in OUR flesh" as this is the only credible evidence to the very existence of Jesus Christ, past, present or future. it is this unconditional love towards us from God and from within us of God to others unconditionally. the love of God shown to us as he Joins himself to Mankind, never to leave him alone.

Next:

Show me in the context of 1 John where those to whom Johns epistles were addressed had done as you say. You are saying that the believers had denied the power of God within themselves, show me where John stated that situation. If you cannot, then you must renounce that condition existed among the "little children" that John has raised up in the church.

why 1 John? how bout 2 john?

Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

whats his commandments. "Love God and Love Man unconditionally". (we can only do this if the spirit of Christ is within us.)


how about the Holy Spirit through paul?

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.


2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

or the Holy Spirit through titus?

Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny [him], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

or the Holy Spirit through peter?

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

ONCE AGAIN Me2, CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING! The context for this posted scripture includes Mark 13:3-19, and what you posted derives its meaning from what precedes it.

Mar 13:20-23.. want to add verse 3-19. be my guest. Im an amillennialist. my God introduced himself 25 years ago to me. Ive had my judgement day and resurrection day. what about tomorrow?, and the question of others interpretations of biblical eschatology.. just another day in paradise as far as Im concerned.

Again, John is warning his reader that the spirit of anti-Christ is present in the world, and that the reader must know how to test those "spirits" of the anti-Christ regardless of the form they present themselves.

again the litmus test is the offering and holding back unconditional love. only the profession of Jesus is lord is adiquate. why? our Lord defeated fear. and we know that by expressing love to others without regard of being wrong.

1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

are you accusing again?

Yelsew...who is pursuing who? I hold nothing against you brother. This is about our lord and us as individuals. why dont we just continue to learn from the master ?....

Me2

[ October 15, 2003, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

 

[Yelsew]

Me2, You still refuse to provide your definition of 'FAITH'. Why is that?

 

[Yelsew]

clearly one can logically define "in the flesh" as "in OUR flesh" as this is the only credible evidence to the very existence of Jesus Christ, past, present or future. it is this unconditional love towards us from God and from within us of God to others unconditionally. the love of God shown to us as he Joins himself to Mankind, never to leave him alone.

NO! It is not LOGICAL to define "in the flesh" as you do! The CREDIBLE EVIDENCE of the existance of Jesus is in the eye-witness reports of the fulfillment of Prophesy in the one called Jesus, but especially in the recorded WORDS of Jesus. It is the power of HIS WORDS by which we know HIM.

If you are speaking of Jesus, there is but one way to interpret "in the flesh" with respect to Jesus, and that is "while Jesus lived among us in a body of flesh". I know of not one single bible scholar that agrees with you Me2. You are out on a limb all by your self. Even the words of Jesus undercut the principle that you pin you doctrine upon. Jesus says that HIS words are life and spirit. Therefore if man accepts the words of Jesus, that man receives the life and spirit of Jesus. The words of Jesus transform the human spirit from sinner to saint. The words of Jesus are the "whole armor of God".

Believing in Jesus is a matter of persuasion, not occupation. Just as communism and democracy are "spirits", Christianity is likewise, "spirit". Whereas communism "conquers and subjugates or imprisons" its adherants, Democracy persuades its adherants, giving them freedom of life within the parameters of democracy.

Christianity is the gentle persuasion that brings eternal life to its adherants. One is never forced to be a Christian. The Crusades proved that. One can never be forced to be a Christian, because there is no "occupation" of conquered territory. There is only acceptance or rejection of the tenets of the faith. It is based on volunteerism and not conscription. If one accepts Jesus, the Son of God the Christ, it is by HIS words that one is made a "spiritual Christian", with a spirit that is transformed from 'sinner' to 'saint'.

When a spirit says that Jesus is come in the flesh, it means that Jesus, who is the son of God, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, came down from his Glory to be as one of us, "in the flesh", in order to be the spotless Lamb of God that is "sacrificed", once-for-ALL, as an atonement for the sins of the world. The spirits that do, or cannot say that Jesus "came in the flesh", are not spirits from God, but are the spirits of the Anti-Christ.

Your definition is incorrect, bogus! Jesus is at the Father's right hand awaiting the Father's time for Him to return to this world to set up his throne in the temple of Jerusalem. "His WORDS", which are "life and spirit", are among men, convicting all, indwelling the spirits of those who believe in Him, even on his name.

 

[Me2]

Yelsew,

Im glad that you can read the bible. Im glad you can read of other "scholars" opinions. that still doesnt make my interpretations wrong.

...there is but one way to interpret "in the flesh" with respect to Jesus, and that is "while Jesus lived among us in a body of flesh".

I just wanted to read your statements about the existences of two interpretations here.

I on the other hand believe that the verses are stating that Jesus comes "into our flesh". and now resides on his throne "within our flesh"

so then how would you reconcile these contradicting verses:


Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].


Col 1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Where Is He? hhmm..

Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Luk 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see [it].
Luk 17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after [them], nor follow [them].

OK As I read these statements. I believe that the kingdom is "within" the believer.

can I see it with my physical eyes?...no.

where is the kingdom of God/Heaven? within you.
where is Gods throne? within you
In a temple made without hands? within you.
Where is God the father,Son,and Holy Spirit? within you
Where is the spirit of Jesus Christ that is imparted to you? within you

and there is only one kind of existing and living faith that is capable of desiring the things of God.
that is the faith of the spirit of Jesus Christ.
Within You

Yelsew, seems to me that there is two wills within you struggling for one throne. Within you

or could I be wrong?

Me2

 

[Yelsew]

Yelsew,

Im glad that you can read the bible. Im glad you can read of other "scholars" opinions. that still doesnt make my interpretations wrong. </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />...there is but one way to interpret "in the flesh" with respect to Jesus, and that is "while Jesus lived among us in a body of flesh"

I just wanted to read your statements about the existences of two interpretations here.

I on the other hand believe that the verses are stating that Jesus comes "into our flesh". and now resides on his throne "within our flesh"</font>[/QUOTE]The trouble with your "interpretation" is that there is no evidentiary support for it! It is a philosophy without substance. The Eye witnesses to Jesus "in the flesh" gave us His words, and their reports of his activities. None of which state that Jesus spirit departed Jesus and entered into the flesh of all who would believe.

Let us speak to the way in which man is made. Keep in mind that if Jesus is God, the Son, come in Human form, then Jesus must be confined to the same form as all other men. That is body of flesh, soul, and spirit. It is possible for your spirit to depart your flesh and enter into the flesh of another human? NO, You say? Then how is it possible for Jesus' spirit to depart his flesh and enter into the flesh of so very many humans simultaneously? Well sir, it simply is not possible that can happen, let alone that it did.

The words of Jesus are recorded that tell us how it is possible for all mankind to have the "spirit" of Jesus within us.

John 6:62&63. (Jesus speaking to his Apostles) Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; THE WORDS THAT I HAVE SPOKEN TO YOU ARE SPIRIT AND LIFE.

Therefore, it is by 'hearing' (meaning, the taking in and accepting or believing) the words of Jesus that we receive Jesus into us. It is the same principle as "Hearing" the words of the U.S. Constitution, or the U.S. Bill of Rights, and "taking them into our being" that we become Americans. Living in America does not make one an American simply by living where the spirit of America abounds! Hearing the word of Americanism and applying them is what makes one an American. If you are foreign born and come to America whether by personal choice or whether you are escaping tyranny in you homeland, you do not automatically become an American, you must learn and adopt for yourself "Americanism", and that is hard to do, even for native born Americans.

Going to a Christian church does not make one a Christian, any more than living in America makes one an American. You must Hear and apply the words of the Christ to become a Christian. Hearing means, "taking in" the words, and Applying them to your own life. It is by doing so that you come to have FAITH in the Christ. NO, that is not merely mental ascent, it is whole hearted commitment to the Christ that I am talking about. It is FAITH sufficient to stand up in the face of Evil and confront the evil even if it means the death of your flesh! American freedom is the same. You must believe in it enough to willingly sacrifice your own life for it, or it will flee from you. You cannot have American freedom without "fighting for it", and you cannot have Faith in the Christ without being willing to lay down your life for it. NO, that is not 'a work', it is a condition of existance, it is the evidence of faith, in the same manner that 'fighting for freedom' is evidence of Americanism.

One receives the Spirit of Christ by "taking in" the Words of Jesus Christ, "putting them on the throne of our own lives" and applying them to one's own life. One's 'human' spirit DOES NOT GET REPLACED by the Spirit of Christ, but one's spirit does get "regenerated into" a Christ-like spirit. WE RETAIN the same human spirit, but that spirit is REMADE, (reborn) into a Christ-like spirit by the washing and regeneration brought by the Words (spirit and life) of Jesus! It is by accepting and applying those Words of Jesus that we are seen by others to be "alive in Christ". It is by our living those Words of Jesus that we are sustained in our FAITH, enduring to the end, where we are SAVED by the power of God alone, because we bear the words of His only begotten Son, Jesus in our heart (spirit).

NO Me2, the Christ is alive in us by his Words which we accept and apply to our lives. His 'human' spirit, the one that lived in the flesh of the body that was hung on that old rugged cross so long ago, is not in us in any other manner. Our human spirit is not replaced by another spirit! If it were, there would not be a "rebirth" or a "regeneration" the prefix "re" in both of those terms means "do it again" to the same thing. If it were, there would not be a "washing in the blood of the lamb". If it were there would not be a "redemption", or a "finding of that which was lost". There is only a "repair", a "fixing", a "restoration", a "retrieval", a "making whole" a "rebirth", and a "regeneration" of that which is man's one and only spirit! It is man's spirit that was lost in the Garden, it is man's spirit that is being "found", by Jesus. Jesus said that our flesh availeth nothing, is of no value. Anywhere that dirt is, God can make flesh from it! Flesh is cheap! Human spirit is 'the prize' that God wants of man, and He has gone to great lengths to "redeem" man's spirit including "self-sacrifice" for us. He has made a way for man to be "cleansed from all unrighteousness". He made the way whereby man in his most sinful state can be retrieve, cleansed, purified, justified, and sanctified into the Body of the Bride of His Only Begotten Son Jesus and thereby have eternal life. That way is by believing in His Son who did ALL the work of redemption for us. Do you think that He would simply discard our spirit which is what he came to seek and to save, and replace it with His own spirit? Give us a break Me2!

It is our fallen, sinful spirit that GOD wants to redeem, so why would he throw away, discard, ravage, that which He gave us in the beginning, that which He wants to redeem, and replace it with a new, previously untried, spirit? That simply does not make sense! SCRIPTURES DO NOT SUPPORT YOU IN THIS LINE OF THINKING! SCRIPTURES DO NOT CONTAIN THAT PHILOSOPHY...PERIOD!

 

[Me2]

Yelsew,

need more proof ?

I on the other hand believe that the verses are stating that Jesus comes "into our flesh". and now resides on his throne "within our flesh"

Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.


Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1Co 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:


the viewpoint of the resurrection of the dead is either God raises one righteous spirit from death.

or raises all SOULS that are joined to Christ spirit from death.

our spirit is buried in death. buried as cursed and unrighteous and cannot be resurrected in this form. it remains in death


ergo.. "one" righteous spirit raised..and is imparted into Gods children. then I "guess" God had to multiply Christs spirit and give it to his children.

(Kinda like multiply'in fish and bread.or feedin the multitudes. )



Me2

 

[GH]

oooooh, I like it Me2. He gathers up all the fragments so none will be wasted (lost).

GH

 

[gb93433]

Me 2

I couldn't disagree with you more on the following atatement.

you and I know that God doesnt call all men in this age.

Take a look at Luke 16:20-31, "And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. "And he cried out and said, `Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' "But Abraham said, `Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. `And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.' "And he said, `Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house-- for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' "But Abraham ^said, `They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' "But he said, `No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!' "But he said to him, `If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.' "