Age of Accountability--Biblical or Mythical??

[Yelsew]

Yelsew,

need more proof ?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I on the other hand believe that the verses are stating that Jesus comes "into our flesh". and now resides on his throne "within our flesh"

Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Jesus was not speaking to the individual believer, but rather to a group, his disciples. So "you in me, and I in you", is not speaking of the individual flesh of the individual human, but rather the presence of Jesus "in the group of believers"

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

"Unto Him, and abode with Him" do not mean within the confines of human flesh, but rather that the Father and the Son will abide with the spirit of the one who keeps Jesus Words. That has the same meaning as "abiding with your wife" You are not inside your wife's flesh while you are abiding with her. Though you could be. Even so, you abide together in cohabitation one with the other, and your spirit is intertwined with her spirit. So it is with the Christ. The spirit of the Christ which we have through his words, is intertwined with our own spirit.

Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

"Come again unto you" means to the collective of his disciples (adherants), that is who he was speaking to.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Remember Jesus told us it is His words that are "spirit and life", therefore having Jesus words in your spirit is having the spirit and life of the Christ in your spirit. Paul knew what Jesus meant, and attempts to explain that to recent believers who had been "Romanized" with all of the false gods, that Rome bowed down to. Besides, this passage is taken out of it's context which includes verses 1-8. The more you do this the greater your error becomes.

1 Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

The context of this verse has Paul addressing the Corinthians regarding Sexual Immorality, for which the Corinthians were famous. The illustration is the joining of your flesh to that of a harlot, and that the joining of flesh makes the two flesh into one flesh. It is an illustration that provides the Corinthians with a means of understanding that by taking the WORD into their spirit, they become one with the spirit of Christ.

Again, how does one "join unto" the lord? Yes, that is right, it is by FAITH! FAITH cometh by HEARING, and HEARING by the WORD which Jesus said, "is spirit and life".

DON'T be fooled into thinking that Jesus would put his pure and holy spirit into the vile flesh of man. But he does insist that His words, which are spirit and life be heard and thereby bring faith to the man.

1 Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

We were purchased through the atonement made by Jesus, therefore we are bought with a price. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit when we believe in Jesus. Belief which is Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

1Co 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

the viewpoint of the resurrection of the dead is either God raises one righteous spirit from death. or raises all SOULS that are joined to Christ spirit from death. our spirit is buried in death. buried as cursed and unrighteous and cannot be resurrected in this form. it remains in death ergo.. "one" righteous spirit raised..and is imparted into Gods children. then I "guess" God had to multiply Christs spirit and give it to his children.

(Kinda like multiply'in fish and bread.or feedin the multitudes. )</font>

There you go again, adding to scripture what is not contained in scripture. According to scripture the human spirit that believes in Jesus is, through that belief, "passed from death unto life". Saying that another way, " the believing spirit 'passes death by' and continues in life eternal". There is no 'burying of spirit', because when the flesh dies, the spirit departs the dead flesh.

Paul, whom you are fond of quoting, said, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". To have it your way, Me2, and while accepting Paul's testimony as true, you must put Jesus back into the grave. However, the human spirit is not and indeed cannot be put into the grave. Therefore your analogy is groundless.

The only part of man that is put into the grave is lifeless flesh. The believing spirit, which was the life of the flesh, has departed to be with the Lord, the one who "Redeemed it with His blood", shed on Calvary's cross.

 

[Me2]

gb93433,

I couldn't disagree with you more on the following statement.

you and I know that God doesnt call all men in this age.

ever hear of other religions around the world called:

confucianism
Taoism
Shinto
Buddhism
Hinduism
zorastrianism
Islam
Mayan
Aztec
Inca
Babyonian
Zulus
communism

can we add to these names, countless numbers of people in civilizations before the flood?
…..before the law.
the world was populated by people, right?...billions and billions
…..before, during and after the life of Christ on other continents. Africa, Australia,Americas,China,Russia
…how about the countless language barriers.?

Many civilizations do not know of the good news of God to man. they exist in their imaginations. Yet God hasn’t forgotten them. As we know in due time that all things will be reconciled to God as its design was originally in Christ before the foundation of the world and will return in its completion of the created image.

consider this....

Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.

2Co 5:18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Every man woman and child has never been forgotten or forsaken of God. There is an order, a plan and a specific time for all things to be reconciled. Mankind must not take away from the sovereignty or power of God to complete his given task that HE HAS PLANNED.

All thing are designed by him, in him, through him, and for him. All people.

Now your parable mentioned. Lazarus and the Rich Man. This is a parable referencing those struggling within the family of God. We all “die spiritually” in the process of the new birth.
We will live under one of two environments. Under the law which is in enmity of the nature of Christ. Or under humility and faith of Jesus.
One environment exibits the nature of those constantantly looking for judgement and condemnation while the other environment brings joy and rest. These two are spiritual conditions based on our reactions to Gods invitation within the family.
Will you choose to be disobedient or obedient. Will you become a child of wrath, fear, and disobedience or will you choose to be a child of rest, joy and obedience.

Gb93433..this parable has to do with the dueling nature that God has designed to be incorporated within his family of called children.

I would suggest stop trying to look for heaven and hell and discover what the image of man is to be. This image that is the design for all mankind and created before the foundation of the world. The image that all people will eventually be transformed into. All people

there really is no need to teach the "age of accountability"..it is a myth.
why dont teachers and preachers of today teach about the "image" that God has designed all men to become.

has God blinded their eyes to this truth?

Me2

 

[Yelsew]

Me2, Here are some simple, easy to find facts that you may be interested in since you are so quick to establish your doctrine based on "historical data"

Population of the world in 1950 was approximately 2.6 Billion.
Population of the world July 1989: 5,242,874,000, 1989 growth rate 1.8%
Population of the world TODAY, 6,324,278,238

Based on the trend established from 1950 it is not difficult to see that the worlds population B.C. was not in the BILLIONS, but rather in the Millions. The above figures provided are from Geography.org.

Your exaggerations are hilarious!

Here are some websites you may find interesting.

http://www.osearth.com/resources/worldometers/worldcrew.shtml

http://www.theodora.com/wfb/

http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html

http://www.ibiblio.org/lunarbin/worldpop
http://www.greekorthodoxchurch.org/wfb2002/world/world_people.html

It is seriously doubtful that there was even 2 Million people before the flood.

[ October 17, 2003, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

[Yelsew]

I would suggest stop trying to look for heaven and hell and discover what the image of man is to be. This image that is the design for all mankind and created before the foundation of the world. The image that all people will eventually be transformed into. All people

there really is no need to teach the "age of accountability"..it is a myth.
why dont teachers and preachers of today teach about the "image" that God has designed all men to become.

has God blinded their eyes to this truth?

What a crock!

The image that Jesus came seeking to save is not the image of Jesus, it is the image of man, who was made in the image of God. Jesus tells us that the Father is spirit and all who worship Him must worship in spirit, and in truth. EACH HUMAN who ever existed, did so as spirit (the image of God who is spirit) housed in a flesh body.

The spirit of man lives through the death of the natural body. The natural flesh body is buried in the ground from whence it was made. However the spirit does not also die, and it is the spirit of man that Jesus came to redeem unto Himself. That is why your proposition that Jesus' spirit displaces man's spirit in man's body of flesh is not possible. Jesus did not come to save the flesh but to reclaim the spirit of man. What value is there in the flesh? All one need do to realize the flesh is nothing, is to exhume the "bodies" of the dead and see what is left behind. You will not find a single spirit in any grave!

All human spirits are set free upon the death of the body, but their freedom is contingent upon the faith of the spirit. Those spirits lacking faith in God or in Jesus the Son, even on His name, are judged and cast into the lake of fire! those having faith in God, Jesus, and yes even on the name of Jesus, are spared from the lake of fire, and "SAVED" into eternal life with Jesus.

Me2, It is pure phony balony to think, as you do, that Jesus' spirit enters the human flesh and throws out the human spirit. It is after everthing is boiled down to the truth, the human spirit that Jesus came to seek and to save, and you don't save human spirit by replacing it with spirit that is not human.

"The Son of man came to seek and to save that which was lost!" He said so!

 

[Me2]

Yelsew,

All human spirits are set free upon the death of the body

does faith tell you that you have been judged and found guilty of Sin.
does faith tell you that upon the verdict of guilty that you are placed in death. mind, body, and spirit.
does faith tell you that you cannot exit death through your own means.
does faith tell you that another can die for you if their substitutionary death is accepted by God on your behalf.
does faith tell you that God the creator has supplied you with such a substitute and has come into death. and returned to our creator.
does faith tell you that God has accepted this substitutionary death on your behalf and will in his timing call for your soul to be with him.

God has sent for your soul

he has joined it to the spiritual body and spirit of Christ.

AND HAS REPLACED YOU BACK ON PLANET EARTH.
WELCOME BACK TO DEATH, BROTHER

what? yep. God has sent you back to learn in this environment. to renew your mind. to show mercy on your brothers and sisters. to educate, to Give of yourself to others.

you are Jesus "in Yelsew"

but you have to accept this "truth" by faith...

the "faith of God" because man cannot even imagine this. it requires the "power" of God to even conceive this possibility even occurring.

living while being "dead". Living after being "judged". living with a new completely different "spiritual body and spirit within you".


that takes "faith of God", in the power of God, Yelsew.
not thru mental assent.
mans mind can not imagine such a thing possible.


and heres a link for you...

population growth

and heres a treat

In the beginning

Me2

 

[Yelsew]

Yelsew,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />All human spirits are set free upon the death of the body

does faith tell you that you have been judged and found guilty of Sin.
does faith tell you that upon the verdict of guilty that you are placed in death. mind, body, and spirit.
does faith tell you that you cannot exit death through your own means.
does faith tell you that another can die for you if their substitutionary death is accepted by God on your behalf.
does faith tell you that God the creator has supplied you with such a substitute and has come into death. and returned to our creator.
does faith tell you that God has accepted this substitutionary death on your behalf and will in his timing call for your soul to be with him.</font>[/QUOTE]It is with faith that I believe what Jesus says in scripture. Faith does not tell me anything. Faith is what I have because of what Jesus, and the scriptures tell me!

God has sent for your soul

Yes, He sent His only begotten Son Jesus, whom I believe. I have accepted what Jesus did for me, I have faith that He will keep the promises that He made to me, and all who believe in Him.

he has joined it to the spiritual body and spirit of Christ.

He has planted his words in my spirit and those words give me the life and spirit of Jesus Christ.

AND HAS REPLACED YOU BACK ON PLANET EARTH.
WELCOME BACK TO DEATH, BROTHER

What evidence do you provide that supports your statement?

what? yep. God has sent you back to learn in this environment. to renew your mind. to show mercy on your brothers and sisters. to educate, to Give of yourself to others.

EVIDENCE PLEASE!

you are Jesus "in Yelsew"

NO! ME2, I am yelsew "in christ". It is I that have entered into the Christ through my faith in Him.

but you have to accept this "truth" by faith...

It is by faith that I "know" that a I am in Christ, for I am a part of the Body of Christ, the physical manifestation of the Christ on earth which is the church, and I am in the BRIDE of CHRIST, the Spiritual reality of the one whom the Christ has redeemed by His blood!

the "faith of God" because man cannot even imagine this. it requires the "power" of God to even conceive this possibility even occurring.

OH foolish one! God made man WITH ALL THE ABILITIES NEEDED to recognize God, and with which to Hear the Word of God, and with which to respond to hearing the word, and with which to believe, and with which to accept or reject God!

living while being "dead". Living after being "judged". living with a new completely different "spiritual body and spirit within you".

HOGWASH Me2!

that takes "faith of God", in the power of God, Yelsew.
not thru mental assent.
mans mind can not imagine such a thing possible.

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and of Yelsew, has no need of FAITH! He knows ALL! Therefore God has no FAITH! FAITH is required where KNOWLEDGE is absent.

Me2 If your God requires FAITH, You'd better run from Him because he is not the God of the Bible! He is a FALSE GOD!

and heres a link for you...

population growth

and heres a treat

In the beginning

Thanks, I took a look at them, not a thorough study, mind you, just a look. The Population growth site is interesting but there is no evidence to support the theories espoused there. As for "In the Beginning", it remains to be seen what value it contains.
==============================
Population:
If as you believe there were many BILLIONS of people, HUMANs, on the earth at the time of the flood, Why have the archeologists not uncovered large deposits of human remains like they have of dynasaur remains? Why is that?

There are several sites, each with the remains of many thousands of dynasaurs right here in the United States, and in Africa, and in Asia, but no comparable sites that contain the remains of humans. Why is that?

Consider the evidence.

 

[Me2]

Yelsew,

How is it that I see your "mental assent" as rendering useless the symbolic acts of

the lords supper and also of baptism.

Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake [it], and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Joh 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
Joh 6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
Joh 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
Joh 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
Joh 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

And finally the linking scriptures…..

1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake [it], and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:25 After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
1Co 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink [this] cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup.
1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

the lords supper symbolizes humble believers taking in the lords spirit into us becoming one with Him.

We feed on his entity..until when. Til the lord comes. Between the child stage and young man stage believers receive and are tried concerning their faith towards certain “truths”. Upon receiving the evidential proof. (a revelation) they comprehend the lords defeat of death. Their own resurrection, or their attached soul being resurrected with christ spirit from the dead.
Creating the term “when the lord comes” the reality.
We make the symbol of "consuming" the spirit within us to the point of actually recognizing that we have been resurrected all along from the initial impartation of Gods spirit. we have been exercising our spiritual senses to see what has been a reality all along.

Clearly meaning if you are at a child stage that the realization or receiving evidential proof of this reality hasn’t arrived yet. Your still exercising your spiritual senses (eyes). An alternative conclusion would be that you are a disobedient child and are not being allowed to see this “reality”. You are waiting probably until death to “see” the lords return. (Hense the corinthians warnings….eek!)

Repeating that this reality occurs between the child and young man stage. The same moment is another recognition or profession,,Jesus is Lord. The revelation that the power of death has been defeated. And also that the spirit of the lord jesus christ has come within us (or recognize, or finally affirm his spiritual presence….within us.)

And baptism.

Is it because we are not baptised correctly that you cant see this. (arent we supposed to stay under water and not come up?)

We are baptised in the likeness of his death and burial. We are placed in spiritual death. Yet we don’t come up..yelsew.
The only way for us to come out of daeth is to be joined with Christ. Only his spirit is capable of exiting death. So as in we are buried in the likeness of his death. We are resurrected in his likeness.
Our new different life. Attached to a new different spirit. His resurrected spirit!.
that’s resurrection. Our soul connected to his spirit.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Im sure you can find additional references to the symbolic act of Baptism.

We are buried into death. Resurrected with him into life.
Only difference is its our soul and his spirit.
Our spiritual body and spirit remains in death.


Me2

[ October 17, 2003, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

 

[Yelsew]

How is it that I see your "mental assent" as rendering useless the symbolic acts of the lords supper and also of baptism.

Perhaps you "see" what you "see" because your imagination is in overdrive! You are deliberately ignoring the truth in favor of your own brand of religiosity.

It is good that you recognize these symbols as symbols and not as reality!

Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake [it], and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Joh 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
Joh 6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
Joh 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
Joh 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
Joh 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

The setting is Jesus teaching in the synagog at capurnaum, and it is interesting that Jesus begins this passage saying that "my flesh is meat indeed", then in verse 58 he declares that "This is that bread which..." Speaking of the same thing. Which are we to believe? is his flesh really meat or is it bread? Now consider verse 63 where he says It is the spirit that quickeneth. My, My, He then finishes by saying, "the words that I speak to your are spirit and they are life". So now we have Flesh, bread and words to ponder over. Which of those things do we, in this 21st century, have with us? WE HAVE THE WORDS OF JESUS. We cannot eat HIS FLESH, nor drink HIS BLOOD, We do not have the Bread, though we do have bread. WE DO, HOWEVER, HAVE HIS WORDS! HE TELLS US, "THE FLESH HAS NOTHING TFFER", BUT THAT "THE SPIRIT IS WHAT QUICKENETH". THEN HE TELLS US IT IS HIS WORDS THAT ARE SPIRIT AND LIFE. BY TAKING HIS WORDS INTO ME, I AM TAKING HIS SPIRIT AND HIS LIFE INTO ME! SO WHAT AM I MISSING HERE ME2? WHAT DO YOU THINK IS WRONG?

And finally the linking scriptures…..

1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake [it], and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:25 After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
1Co 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink [this] cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup.
1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

the lords supper symbolizes humble believers taking in the lords spirit into us becoming one with Him.

YES, ME2 THAT IS TRUE, THE SYMBOLOGY OF EATING JESUS FLESH AND DRINKING HIS BLOOD "REPRESENTS" TAKING JESUS INTO US, BUT THE SYMBOL, THOUGH BEAUTIFUL, IS POWERLESS! IT IS NOT THE WAFER AND CUP THAT QUICKENS US, IT IS HIS WORDS WHICH ARE SPIRIT AND LIFE THAT QUICKENS US.

JOHN 1:1-4. In the beginning was the Word: the Word was with God and the Word was God. 2. He was with God in the beginning. 3. Through him all things came into being, not one thing came into being except through him. 4. What has come into being in him was life, life that was the light of men; 5. and light shines in darkness, and darkness could not overpower it.

THE WORD IS WHAT HAS LIFE, THE WORD IS WHAT QUICKENS US, THE WORD...

We feed on his entity..until when. Til the lord comes. Between the child stage and young man stage believers receive and are tried concerning their faith towards certain “truths”. Upon receiving the evidential proof. (a revelation) they comprehend the lords defeat of death. Their own resurrection, or their attached soul being resurrected with christ spirit from the dead. Creating the term “when the lord comes” the reality.
We make the symbol of "consuming" the spirit within us to the point of actually recognizing that we have been resurrected all along from the initial impartation of Gods spirit. we have been exercising our spiritual senses to see what has been a reality all along.

You err in your thinking here Me2. We do not symbolize taking his spirit into us by consuming the body and blood of Jesus. We symbolize taking in the Word which was with God which Is God. We do in reality take in the whole essence of Jesus Christ when we take in, and internalize his words from the bible. We are taking into us the "spirit, and Life of Jesus.

Clearly meaning if you are at a child stage that the realization or receiving evidential proof of this reality hasn’t arrived yet. Your still exercising your spiritual senses (eyes). An alternative conclusion would be that you are a disobedient child and are not being allowed to see this “reality”. You are waiting probably until death to “see” the lords return. (Hense the corinthians warnings….eek!)

Conclude what you will, you remain WRONG! Your perception of truth is way off base. You haven't got a clue! so the saying goes.

Repeating that this reality occurs between the child and young man stage. The same moment is another recognition or profession,,Jesus is Lord. The revelation that the power of death has been defeated. And also that the spirit of the lord jesus christ has come within us (or recognize, or finally affirm his spiritual presence….within us.)

Your vivid imagination is running rampant Me2. NOT ONE OF THE APOSTLES AGREES WITH YOU!

And baptism.

Is it because we are not baptised correctly that you cant see this. (arent we supposed to stay under water and not come up?)

How can we SYMBOLIZE death, burial, AND resurrection if we do not also rise up out of the water? So the answer to your question is NO! WE ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO STAY UNDER WATER AND NOT COME UP! Symbology may be wonderful, but it is powerless!

We are baptised in the likeness of his death and burial. We are placed in spiritual death. Yet we don’t come up..yelsew. The only way for us to come out of daeth is to be joined with Christ. Only his spirit is capable of exiting death. So as in we are buried in the likeness of his death. We are resurrected in his likeness. Our new different life. Attached to a new different spirit. His resurrected spirit!. that’s resurrection. Our soul connected to his spirit.

Hogwash Me2, Baptism does not put one in spiritual death, nor does it join human spirit to divine spirit. If it did, all that would be required to save the whole of mankind is mass dunkin' of all mankind, then every one is saved, because they come up out of the water joined to deity and deity cannot die! What a bunch of poppy-cock you are spouting! Here's a clue: NNE SUBMITS THEMSELF TO BAPTISM UNTIL THEY ARE ALREADY "JOINED TO DIVINE SPIRIT" THROUGH BELIEF. I have never witnessed even one human being get baptised a sinner and come up a saint! IT SIMPLY DON'T HAPPEN!

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Im sure you can find additional references to the symbolic act of Baptism.

We are buried into death. Resurrected with him into life. Only difference is its our soul and his spirit.
Our spiritual body and spirit remains in death.

SYMBOLOGY IS A WONDERFUL THING ME2, BUT THAT IS ALL IT IS, SYMBOLOGY IS SYMBOLOGY! THE SYMBOL HAS NO POWER IN ITSELF, ANY MORE THAN A STATUE OF NAPOLEAN CAN RULE FRANCE! BAPTISING ONE DOES NOT SAVE ONE, FOR SALVATION IS OF FAITH ALONE, NOT FAITH PLUS SOME SYMBOLOGY! FAITH IS LIKE PREGNANCY, YOU EITHER HAVE IT OR YOU DON'T, THERE ARE NO HALF-PREGNANT WOMEN, AND THERE ARE NO HALF-FAITH-FULL PEOPLE. YOU CANNOT BE "ALMOST PERSUADED" AND HAVE SALVATION. NOR CAN YOU "DO" ALL THE RIGHT THINGS AND HAVE SALVATION! THAT PHILOSOPHY DON'T FLOAT!

 

[Frogman]

?There is no doubt mankind has always known the way to God. Adam was taught by God himself and he taught his sons. One believed there must be an innocent substitute the other believed the substitute could be offered by his corrupt hands. One is accepted and approved by God, the other is not.

If all shall be gathered as 'fragments' without qualification of any kind, then there is no reason to worry with the restrictions on individual liberties imposed by religious rules.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Debby in Philly]

I thought this was a simple question. This thread has made it more complex than asking "Where did God come from?"

One extreme:
How can an unborn child, or an infant, possibly understand that they have been born in sin and need to repent and be saved? They can't. If they leave this earth, God takes them home; He loves them.

To the other:
Can a normal human being of the age of, say, 20 and up understand that they have been born in sin and need to repent and be saved? Absolutely! If they leave this earth, their decision concerning the blood of Christ determines their destination.

In the middle:
Where is the age line drawn? I would concede it is different for every person. Can we tell when that is for each child? No. So - teach them young, in words they can understand, and give them opportunities to respond. How many of you were saved in Sunday School? Bible Club? Good News Club? Christian summer camp?

I was seven years old when I "asked Jesus into my heart." And I knew what I was doing. I remember.

 

[Frogman]

How many of us are/were saved apart from the power of the Holy Spirit and made a decision based from emotional feelings?

The Holy Spirit operates in salvation working Godly Sorrow, repentance and salvation. There is not two ways. Even dying infants must be born again.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Even dying infants must be born again.

For what sin do they die? Perhaps the sins of the parents, but not of themselves. For shurely the infant has not sinned a sin unto death.

Why is it necessary for the infant to be born again? How is that possible? The infant does not comprehend the idea of being born again. The infant does not comprehend right from wrong, or eve life form death.

For what reason are you putting the guilt of this religious clap trap into the minds of readers? It is pure bunk! Infants die for a variety of reasons, but not because of their own sin. And God does not put one to death because of the sins of another, the story of Lot in Sodom testifies to that!

Yes, we are all born into the human race with a propensity to sin, but until we actually do sin we are not guilty of sinning! Therefore the infant that dies, need not be born again because their spirit is not tainted by sin.

I'm surprised at you Frogman!

 

[Frogman]

Don't be surprised, I have always supported this view. Simply because it means that if human kind is not conceived sinners and guilty, first of all, infants would not die, for any reason. The wages of sin is death. This infant, or any infant is subject to death because the flesh is sinful.

Have you never seen how early infants learn to deceive their mothers?

If infants do not require a savior, then Jesus is not the savior of the human race.

If infants do not need to be reborn, then the statement Christ made to Nicodemus does not apply to this group. (This constitutes special treatment), but you don't believe God is a respecter of persons...do ya?

If infants are not born sinners already, then it is possible for a human to live a sinless life without Christ, disproving the entire Bible.

You continue to make man God and God something else. You speak these things and you are surprised at me?

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Don't be surprised, I have always supported this view. Simply because it means that if human kind is not conceived sinners and guilty, first of all, infants would not die, for any reason. The wages of sin is death. This infant, or any infant is subject to death because the flesh is sinful.

What sins are they guilty of, being human? That is not a sin unless you want to convict God of sin for making humans. The fact that because of sin, all of mankind now has the propensity to sin, does not mean that ALL men MUST SIN! If that were the case, Jesus a descendent from David, would be guilty of sin and could not have Atoned for the sins of the world.

Have you never seen how early infants learn to deceive their mothers?

Yes I have see what you call deceit, but believe it to be survival instinct inherent in all mammals. I do not see that as being deliberate, contrived or thought out sin, the doing of something you know and understand to be wrong. Where there is no law, there is no sin! Where a parent, the authority in the case of infants, does not establish a boundary, there can be no violation!

If infants do not require a savior, then Jesus is not the savior of the human race.

Where there is no sin there need not be a saviour. The spirit of an infant that dies is not cast into the lake of fire because it has not sinned.

If infants do not need to be reborn, then the statement Christ made to Nicodemus does not apply to this group. (This constitutes special treatment), but you don't believe God is a respecter of persons...do ya?

I presume you are speaking of "ye must be born again", when did your spirit die? When it sinned the first willful sin, like Adam's sin which was disobedience of authority. When the child receives "the law", then disobeys the law, the child sins! It is then when the spirit of the child becomes separated (dead) from God. It is then that the child must be born again! Jesus was addressing a master teacher in the land, not an infant. You must think that infants are capable of adult language and maturity to hold the position you do. No, there is no "special treatment", but rather "Just treatment". Yes you are right, God is no respecter of man, nor is God the judge and executioner of the innocent. None of God's creation deserves special treatment, but the innocent do not deserve the justice applied to the guilty either!

If infants are not born sinners already, then it is possible for a human to live a sinless life without Christ, disproving the entire Bible.

Jesus did, was he not fully human? Was he not tempted in every way common to man? So it is possible for a human to live a sinless life, because the Christ did it. However, it would take intense training very early in the life of the human to keep that human from sinning. In other words I believe that man has the inherent ability to resist temptation just as Jesus had it. Man however does not know he has it, because he does not learn it early enough in his life.

You continue to make man God and God something else. You speak these things and you are surprised at me?

I am simply not willing to put down what God himself called good, and which God valued enough to sacrifice his only begotten son for to redeem. But then again, I have never raised man to anything but man, a created being! I just don't accept the doctrine of total depravity, or that man is not valuable enough to God to cause God to establish ALL that is necessary for man's redemption, and restoration. Afterall, man was made just a little lower than the Angels, which makes man the Highest form of "natural creation". Did man sin? Sure, but that did not take away any part of God's Creation except the unrestricted union between God and man, which man broke by sinning.

 

[PappaBear]

The question comes to accountability. The Bible is filled with example of its doctrine. So, are there any Biblical evidences of children not being held accountable for wrong doing?

1) The half-shekel atonement indicates this.

Exodus 30:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
12 When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number, then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul unto the LORD, when thou numberest them; that there be no plague among them, when thou numberest them.
13 This they shall give, every one that passeth among them that are numbered, half a shekel after the shekel of the sanctuary: (a shekel is twenty gerahs an half shekel shall be the offering of the LORD.
14 Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the LORD.
15 The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering unto the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.
16 And thou shalt take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shalt appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of the congregation; that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.

It appears that Biblically, the atonement for the souls of men was required for those 20 years old and above.

2) We also see this in the sin of Israel at Kadesh-Barnea. The Lord sent them to wander in the wilderness until those 20 years old and up had died, except for Joshua and Caleb. Apparently, those under 20 were not held responsible for this sin.

Numbers 14:
26 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
27 How long shall I bear with this evil congregation, which murmur against me? I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel, which they murmur against me.
28 Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the LORD, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:
29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,
30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.
31 But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.
32 But as for you, your carcases, they shall fall in this wilderness.
33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.
34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.
35 I the LORD have said, I will surely do it unto all this evil congregation, that are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die.

3. Once again, it seems the children are not held responsible for keeping the commandments of the Lord which they can not yet understand. But the parents, who have seen God's working and can understand, are held accountable.

Deuteronomy 11:
1 Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway.
2 And know ye this day: for I speak not with your children which have not known, and which have not seen the chastisement of the LORD your God, his greatness, his mighty hand, and his stretched out arm,

4. Again, God reasons with Jonah regarding His sparing of Ninevah by citing the children. Should those so young that they cannot discern good from evil (knowing their right from their left) be destroyed without mercy?

Jonah 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

5. Lastly, God does not condemn without law. Sin is not imputed when there is no law. Can a child be held accountable for doing good or evil in which he does not even yet possess the capability of knowing good from evil? I trow not.

Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

 

[Frogman]

So is Genesis 6 & 19 examples of error in judgement made by God?

Bro. Dallas

 

[Me2]

5. Lastly, God does not condemn without law. Sin is not imputed when there is no law. Can a child be held accountable for doing good or evil in which he does not even yet possess the capability of knowing good from evil? I trow not.

adams represented every human being.

adam delivered mankind into spiritual death

one sin. delivered every human being.

when we are physically born. we are born in spiritual death. because we all have this cursed spirit of adam. we dont know this. but were here. and we have a cursed spirit.

when God opens our eyes spiritually. we discover we are actually in spiritual death because of the law that is an integral part of the spirit of Christ.

it is the law that uncovers sin that identifies us in spiritual death with no escape.

again..we're all born in spiritual death even though we dont realize it. only by recognizing this truth do we understand our inescapable doom. and our need of a savior from this state.

Me2

 

[Me2]

Heres a very easy way of acknowledging an exodus from spiritual death.

if we believe we still have sin within us.

we are still in spiritual death.

and we do not recognize or acknowledge the spirit of christ that is within us.

the spirit of Christ CONTAINS NO SIN.
nor can sin be counted against it.

It HAS ALREADY BEEN JUDGED as righteous.

If the spirit of Christ is "within" us.

We have been resurrected from spiritual death for we have obtained a spirit "within" us that is righteous and cannot be held by the power of death.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death.

1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

Being Born again is not a once for all experience. it is a process whereas we grow in Christ. which begins with our acknowledgement and understanding of the actuality of facts operating in the spiritual realm. we build our knowledge base idea by idea. truth by truth.

without our personal agreement of spiritual reality with God. we stunt or even stop growing in spiritual knowledge. we have to agree with the holy spirit of truth.

yet to agree we must understand what God is teaching us.

age of accountability is a myth.

we are all in spiritual death until we receive the spirit of Christ that is righteous.

and that the power of the law, sin, and death is utterly powerless to hold.

because it contains no sin.

Me2

 

[Frogman]

Me2,
What of scripture teaching of him who says he has no sin being a liar and the truth is not in him?

I agree that being born again there is a part of us sinless, but in the flesh this is not true.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Me2]

John is speaking to children in the faith.

they accept that Jesus has been resurrected himself by God into heaven. yet they havent received the revelation that They also have received the selfsame spirit "within them" and that their new spirit is now sinless.

these children are still in the stage whereas the law is still destroying the works of their flesh

the law convicts them of failing to be righteous by themselves attempting to "stop sinning"
until they are completely become exausted of trying to please God under their own power. and believe that God loves us enough to take away the temptation using HIS POWER.

they will continue to try and continue to fail.
they are still under the impression they can be like God. all men do.

until they throw their hands up in the air and say its impossible under their own strength.
declaring to themselves that only God can rescue them from utter and complete spiritual "death".

why is Jesus Lord?. Because he is the only person who can overcome the power of death.
and God will give us this spirit when we are ready to receive it. When we understand that it is possible.

but until the revelation that we receive a resurrected sinless spirit. we must continue to be convicted of failing to follow the law. if we do not deny ourselves of the possibility of saving ourselves. God allows us to try until we declare defeat.

thats why some accept Jesus as Lord while others do Not. Its a matter of humility before God.

did you ever realize that its a "sin" to repent of sin after you've realized that your spirit has been resurrected. why?

because the spirit within us can not sin. and were attempting to believe that it can.


1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

its a slow process of the Holy Spirit using the Law to convict us of error. if we deny this process. we are attempting to deny error within us or to deny the Holy Spirits methods of teaching us truth. until the revelation of receiving this new spirit. we will be under the conviction of the law.


Yet later we read:

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

problems. not really. a truth to a child is unfolded in more detail to an adult. we receive a sinless spirit. its the sinless concept that has to be understood. how is it sinless? its resurrected.

try some other examples in 1 John:

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

the two commandments are love God and Love man.

yet do you hear "adult" christian men stuttering as they speak with the blood and guts of their brothers in their teeth.
many children. few adults

Judge not. offer infinite mercy Like our father. and love God.
Who is he and what is his nature?.
His nature will become your nature someday.
He's infinite mercy. Who does he hate or who will he not die for?. NOBODY..(I can accept that and I'LL PROFESS IT..even under persecution!)

1Jo 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Who is the Son? God! and He is "in you" by giving you HIS righteous resurrected spirit. but, unfortunately. you have to comprehend being in spiritual death and also your complete helplessness first.

and now you cant lay sin to that spirit

yet its a progressive truth. we learn of the word and we also receive a revelation. until the revelation we must hold onto the truths we are taught of the Holy spirit BY FAITH.