Age of Accountability--Biblical or Mythical??

[Yelsew]

Heres a very easy way of acknowledging an exodus from spiritual death.

if we believe we still have sin within us.

we are still in spiritual death.

and we do not recognize or acknowledge the spirit of christ that is within us.

You are quite simply wrong Me2. The only way to have the Christ's Spirit is to be Christ! We have our own spirit, a spirit that does not die, but lives on after our flesh dies. It is the faith condition of our spirit when it departs our flesh that determines our eternal destiny! As Paul said, to be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD! Of course Paul was speaking as a believer in Jesus. Those without faith cannot say the same thing!

Our spirit does not die because the human spirit is the life of the human flesh, if our spirit died then our flesh also died. Jesus did not come seeking to save our flesh, else our flesh would never die, but alas, the graves retain their decomposing contents! It is our human spirit that Jesus came to save! That is not done by replacement, but by renewal, that is, making the old new again through refurbishment, overhaul, cleansing, refreshing, etc.! Hence, the words "born again", the same spirit continues to live, but gets transformed from sin to righteousness through coming to faith in Jesus the Christ! Such faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of God!

the spirit of Christ CONTAINS NO SIN.
nor can sin be counted against it.

It HAS ALREADY BEEN JUDGED as righteous.

Correct, but the spirit of Christ is not the spirit of humanity, it is Deity.

If the spirit of Christ is "within" us.

If you are saying that if by faith we receive the spirit that is Christ by replacement, then you are quite simply wrong! However if you mean having the spirit, that is likened to "school spirit", where the school itself in not within you but the essence of being part of that school is within, then we may have a common understanding. Even so, when one has school spirit, one's own human spirit is not replaced by school spirit, but the school spirit becomes part of the human spirit by "faith". That is, the person having the school spirit believes in the school.

So if we have the spirit of Christ, that is, believe in the Christ, then we are "influenced" by and generally do that which is acceptable in accordance with that spirit of Christ.

My point is that the Spirit which is Christ is not the spirit of Christ which we receive through faith. We learn the 'spirit of Christ' through hearing the word of God. Then we choose of our own accord to believe or not believe in the Christ who was 'God with us', but who is now at the right hand of God the Father. The more we learn of the Christ, the more our human spirit likens itself (conforms) to the Spirit which is Christ. The more our human spirit conforms to the Spirit which is Christ, the less our spirit is able to retain its natural inclinations which is conformance to unrighteousness, and what a struggle takes place in our spirit.

We have been resurrected from spiritual death for we have obtained a spirit "within" us that is righteous and cannot be held by the power of death.

Yes, but we have not 'a new spirit' within but rather a 'renewed spirit within'.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

John is teaching the Christian life to believers, and gives us the conditions of that life. The first condition to being known as a Child of God is as John says to break away from sinning. That is most definitely a human action. We must not fall to temptation and continue sinning as we have in the past.

1 John 3:3-10. Whoever treasures this hope of him purifies himself, to be as pure as he is. Whoever sins, acts wickedly, because all sin is wickedness. Now you are well aware that he has appeared in order to take sins away, and that in him there is no sin. No one who remains in him sins, and whoever sins has neither seen him nor recognized him. Children, do not let anyone lead you astray. Whoever acts uprightly is upright, just as he is upright. Whoever lives sinfully belongs to the devil, since the devil has been a sinner from the beginning. This was the purpose of the appearing of the Son of God, to undo the work of the devil. No one who is a child of God sins because God's seed remains in him. Nor can he sin, because he is a child of God. This is what distinguishes the children of God from the children of the devil: whoever does not live uprightly and does not love his brother is not from God.

Being Born again is not a once for all experience.

You simply cannot say this and have is be true in every case. For the one who arrives at belief in Jesus Christ, and never loses that belief in Jesus Christ, being born again is a ONCE FOR ALL experience. It happened once and nothing changed, so it happened for all time. Are there changes for the one who is born again? Yes, but unless one loses faith in God, the born again experience is a one time for all time experience. Does it happen instantaneously, a "love at first site" experience? For many it is, the minute their spiritual eyes see Jesus, it is an eternity long experience that had it's start at one instance in time. So Me2, it is truly a misconception to think, in absolute terms, that being born again is not a once for all experience.

 

[Me2]

Yelsew,

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.


Our old (spirit) body is not renewed. It is DESTROYED!..

Now don’t go confusing our bodies of physical Flesh with our old SPIRIT BODY..

the SPIRIT BODY is what is DESTROYED.

The Spirit body is what contains our Spirit…Both are Destroyed.
Forget thinking in terms of the physical flesh. God is addressesing our spirit body and spirit

This is how you get past the technicalities of seperating our physical and spiritual. It is the spiritual that is being judged and replaced. In the spiritual world.

So what is resurrected if our old spirit bodies and spirits are crucified. (concluding with its buial and placement in death)

It is Christ Spirit and body with our soul. This is the free gift. His NEW SPIRIT and NEW SPIRIT BODY.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

He died spiritually. Although he was already “dead spiritually” being born in this state. It is the law that uncovers sin. And sin causes us to recognize our condition of spiritual death that we were in all along.


Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

How many times must it be said. Jesus Christ Spirit is in the BODY OF MEN. IN THEIR FLESH. Resurrected from spirtual “death”.
our old spirit body and spirit is Not Renewed. It is destroyed! It must be destroyed!!!
Mans soul is resurrected Joined with the spirit of christ. Only mans soul is what is resurrected with Christ Spirit. If you are Christ’s. His spirit is “one” with your soul.


Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
The Spirit (Holy Spirit) bears witness with our spirit (christ). they agree with one another that we are Gods righteous possession.

We have not received our old spirit (bondage). We have received a new spirit (adoption)

Accept it Yelsew. Understand that our foundation of belief structure depends on stability

Truth is not built on a better carnal spirit of man.
It is built on a completely different foundation. That of Christ (spirit)

Accepting the Knowledge of the existence of Christ spirit “within the believer” is elemental and essential.

Luk 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

Me2

[ December 13, 2003, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

 

[Me2]

Yelsew,

Ive mentioned this before but to remind you of a parable:

Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

this is referring about wine and wineskins

stated plainly that one cannot put new wine in old wineskin for the old wineskin would break.

parallel wine and wineskin with a physical body and blood, or spiritual body and spirit.

ergo: one cannot put a new spirit in an old spirit body. the spirit body must be new as to receive a new spirit. christ spirit cannot be held in mans old spirit body. man must receive a new spirit body to hold a new spirit.

when man soul is resurrected from spiritual death. it is because he receives a new spirit body and spirit. death cannot hold this body and spirit because of its righteousness. it is the only spirit and spirit body resurrected from spiritual death.

the one and only spirit body and spirit of Jesus Christ.

Me2

 

[Sularis]

Me2 bad interpretation - must get back to you on how you've just ripped God's word into shreds - church - must go to church and stop posting

 

[Yelsew]

Me2, It all depends upon your definition of "Christ's Spirit".

There is the spirit of Christ which is that which pertains to Christian behavior.

Then there is the Spirit of Christ which is the whole essence of, the life of the one called the Christ. Jesus is called "the Christ", therefore the Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of Jesus. The spirit of Jesus ascended into heaven and is at the Father's right hand.

It is the Holy Spirit that was sent to be with man after Jesus' ascention. So your ill-thoughtout theology is just planely wrong!

The Spirit that is Jesus does not reside inside what you call a "spirit body" of man because there is no such thing as a spirit body. The human body is the temporary residence of the human spirit. The human spirit is influenced by Holy Spirit.

Yes, the spirit of Christ enters into man through the Holy Scriptures. The more scriptures you have in you, the more of the spirit of Christ is available to your spirit. This Word of God is affirmed by the Holy Spirit that communes with the human spirit.

 

[Me2]

Yelsew,

The spirit of Jesus ascended into heaven and is at the Father's right hand.

Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

It is the Holy Spirit that was sent to be with man after Jesus' ascention. So your ill-thoughtout theology is just planely wrong!

If it is only the Holy Spirit that comes to the NT believer. We are no better off than the OT saints.
They were promised a "city built without hands".

we receive it. IT IS the resurected spirit of Christ "in Man". and The Holy Spirit is there also.

(or do we forget that the Holy Spirit is infinite.)

The Spirit that is Jesus does not reside inside what you call a "spirit body" of man because there is no such thing as a spirit body. The human body is the temporary residence of the human spirit. The human spirit is influenced by Holy Spirit.

the human body is a carcass that resides in a decaying physical world. What you seem to overlook (and rightly so seeing your "blindness") is that we are born AGAIN into a spiritual world. WITH A SPIRITUAL BODY. and We accept this truth by faith.

Q.) how can the Holy Spirit exist within a decaying dying flesh body of carnal man ?.

A.) he doesnt. in the OT he "overshadowed".

In the NT He is able to now is also capable of residing "within" the believer because of the RESURECTED Righteous SPIRIT BODY with the resurrected SPIRIT of Christ..

"inside the body of the Believer"...
along with the Holy spirit.

totally unlike the OT. Ye;sew. We receive the Promise of Eternal Life. It Is the Spirit of Righteousness. The Resurrected Spirit of Christ.

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Now Ive Got A question for you. In many references of seeing and hearing spiritual messages of God. Doesnt this ability require ears to hear and eyes to see?

Does this possibly refer to receiving working eyes that see and working ears to hear?

now if there is ONLY ONE BODY THAT HAS BEEN RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD.

THAT HAS WORKING EYES THAT SEE, AND WORKING EARS THAT HEAR.

IF YOU SAY YOU SEE SPIRITUAL REVELATIONS AND HEAR SPIRITUAL WISDOM.

THEN YOU HAVE A NEW SPIRIT BODY WITH WORKING EYES AND WORKING EARS.

and that spirit Body is The One that Belongs To Jesus Christ!

that God gives to You as a "city built without hands". Promise fulfilled.

its simple logic, Yelsew

Me2

 

[Yelsew]

Me2, I have no problem with the scriptures that you post, but I do have a problem with the fact that you take them out of their context to prove you illogical points.

Do you believe that the divisions and subdivisions, chapter and verse, of scripture that we have now was part of the original writing? I do not, so what you are doing is the same thing as taking a sentence out of a paragraph; a single sub-thought out of a main theme. That is NOT "rightly dividing the word of Truth". In so doing, you can make anything you so extract mean anything you want it to mean. It is not easy to discuss such fragmented ideas and concepts with one who does that. You also bounce all over the place when you do that. I suppose that you are convinced that a moving target is hard to hit. If I were to respond in like manner, you would scratch your head in wonderment of where I am going, what I'm trying to say. Therefore I am not going to respond to your misinterpretation of scripture. It takes me too long to do so, and if I posted the scriptures that refute your arguement, this BBS would not contain them all.

So Good luck!

 

[Frogman]

quote:
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Don't be surprised, I have always supported this view. Simply because it means that if human kind is not conceived sinners and guilty, first of all, infants would not die, for any reason. The wages of sin is death. This infant, or any infant is subject to death because the flesh is sinful.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What sins are they guilty of, being human? That is not a sin unless you want to convict God of sin for making humans. The fact that because of sin, all of mankind now has the propensity to sin, does not mean that ALL men MUST SIN! If that were the case, Jesus a descendent from David, would be guilty of sin and could not have Atoned for the sins of the world.

Excerpted from a discussion between myself and Yelsew.

Here is the focus of this post:

The fact that because of sin, all of mankind now has the propensity to sin, does not mean that ALL men MUST SIN! If that were the case, Jesus a descendent from David, would be guilty of sin and could not have Atoned for the sins of the world.

This quote is taken from Yelsew's response to me. Is it obvious that easy believism, free-willism, and any thing short of complete Sovereign Will of God in effectually calling and justifying the elect renders Christ Jesus no more than Jesus bar Joseph?

The focus upon the presumed power of man's will focuses upon the power of the flesh and ignores the supernatural birth of Christ (the anointed Messiah) the only Begotten Son of God.

While Christ is fully man, it is impossible for Him to have sinned in thought, manner, deed, either from purpose or from slight.

You and I...we are not able to claim this. Because we have a propensity for sin we do sin. We seek to please the lust of the flesh in one way or the other, to a lesser or greater degree.

Christ came into the world to do the will of Him who sent Him.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Yes, and as a man in the bloodline of David, the propensity to sin must have been present in Jesus too, for he was tempted in all ways common to man, Yet he did not sin! It does not say in scripture that Jesus COULD NOT SIN, it says that HE DID NOT SIN! Big difference.

The point of which is that man does not have to sin, man does sin. Until man does sin, however, man is not a sinner. Jesus did not sin, and is therefore not a sinner. He was spotless, without blemish, the Pure and Holy Lamb of God, slain from the foundation of the world.

Under the OLD COVENANT, once man does sin, He is condemned to death. Under the NEW COVENANT, the Penalty for sin has been paid, a Once for ALL atonement, that removed the condemnation that was upon man. Thus man is no longer condemned by sin, because Jesus paid the price that removed that condemnation, thus enabling man to have eternal life which was not possible under condemnation.

Now the equation for salvation of man has been reduced to the lowest common denominator, FAITH. You either have it or you don't! Faith, which comes by hearing God's Word while God's grace prevails, is what saves man from death, the second death of Rev 20;14,15.

It is by faith that man passes from death, the first death of the flesh, into life everlasting, therefore bypassing the second death, because according to Jesus, John 3:18, those who have faith are not judged. If you are not judged you are not cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. Those who do not have faith are condemned by their unbelief, not by their sins!

 

[Me2]

While Christ is fully man, it is impossible for Him to have sinned in thought, manner, deed, either from purpose or from slight.

kinda makes one wonder.

Was jesus life completely prescripted before creation?.
word for word. thought for thought.
and deed for deed.?

if God is absolutely Sovereign over his creation...(which means no free will!)

does this leave any room for anyone acting contrary to what he has designed that person to be?

even jesus...

can we all together say "absolute predestination".

Me2

 

[The Archangel]

Yelsew,

You wrote: Yes, and as a man in the bloodline of David, the propensity to sin must have been present in Jesus too, for he was tempted in all ways common to man, Yet he did not sin! It does not say in scripture that Jesus COULD NOT SIN, it says that HE DID NOT SIN! Big difference.

Actually, the Bible does say that Jesus could not sin. Notice what James says:

James 1:13 (ESV)
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.


Since Jesus is God, He could not have been tempted with evil. Therefore, He could not have sinned.

Sure, this is implied and not explicit. However to deny this is tantamount to saying Jesus is not God.

Those that hold to your position, which is called peccablity, fail to realize that there was never a time, when Christ was on earth, that His humanity was seperated from His Divinity.

Since Christ's divinity is never absent from His person-hood, He could not have sinned. This position is called Impeccablity.

Impeccablity is the only postition that holds to scripture. Unfortunatly, you are on the wrong side of this debate.

Blessings,

Archangel

 

[Yelsew]

Archangel, to say that Jesus could not be tempted, because He is God, is to deny that Jesus is man. For 33 years, God was man, lived, ate, slept, walked, talked among us as a man. Scriptures reveal that he was tempted in every manner that is common to man.

As God with us, there was no temptation that could overcome him. As a man every possible temptation confronted him every day.

At any given moment of his human life, he could have thrown up his hands and said what the use, pass the wine, women, and song, let's live it up.

The point is he did not, it was his choice to not do so. By his determination, sin had no power over him!

 

[The Archangel]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Archangel, to say that Jesus could not be tempted, because He is God, is to deny that Jesus is man. For 33 years, God was man, lived, ate, slept, walked, talked among us as a man. Scriptures reveal that he was tempted in every manner that is common to man.

As God with us, there was no temptation that could overcome him. As a man every possible temptation confronted him every day.

At any given moment of his human life, he could have thrown up his hands and said what the use, pass the wine, women, and song, let's live it up.

The point is he did not, it was his choice to not do so. By his determination, sin had no power over him!

I must say that I see your point. However, I still disagree with it.

Your wrong opinion is based on your logic. The right position, however, is based on scripture.

If you want to disagree with me, that is fine. However, please give some scriptural reason. Arguements like the proverbial "Liar, liar pants on fire" arguement get us nowhere. Let us try to discuss this using scripture, not opinion.

I completly agree that Jesus was totally human. However, this humanity has never been seperated from the divinity. Therefore Jesus' 100% God-ness trumps, as it were, His humanity. Therefore, He could not sin because God cannot sin.

Please, let's continue the discussion in the above-stated perameters.

Blessings,

Archangel

 

[Frogman]

Me2 and Yelsew, [he he that rhymes]

Scripture does explicitly say Christ came into the world to do the will of Him that sent him. Jesus did not alter from that course in any way, form or fashion. If so, he woudl have been disobedient and could not have been the Lamb of God.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Me2]

Frogman,

first lets get this straight.. the future is finished as far as Gods planning.

all things were formed "in christ" before the foundation of the world. which includes the image of man.
all mankind was made in the image of God "in christ"

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us "in Christ" Jesus before the world began,

Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Eph 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

All things were made "in christ" he is the image and he is the purpose and will of God. and all were made (in spirit) before the foundation of the world. The secret or mystery of this REALITY was hidden from man until Jesus is sacrificed. unveiling the plans to men who are become "in christ"

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

back to the foundation of the world. the planning stage of God. Everything..(ALL MANKIND) was created in Christ and the plans are that All Mankind be regathered (from death) and returned back "in Christ".

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

again..God is reconciling man From death back into Life (which is "in christ"). the intended image that man is to become. from the planning stage of the image in the spirit realm. we are placed into death and now God is reconciling all things back into the image "in christ"

1Co 15:21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

all men placed in spiritual death (adam)
all men reconciled or placed into Spiritual Life (christ)

Today those who are in this image "in Christ" shall never be seperated from God.

Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

if we understand "the image" and you understand Gods plans.

which was finished before the foundation of the world. we're simply unfoolding the completed plan.

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

this is the will of the father. and we're all fulfilling it. to every jot and tittle

Me2

 

[Yelsew]

Archangel,

Therefore Jesus' 100% God-ness trumps, as it were, His humanity. Therefore, He could not sin because God cannot sin.

This says that God in the form of man has no free will! The truth is God, regardless of form does have free will, and can by choice deviate in any manner that God chooses. Who's to stop God? Who does God answer to?

Jesus could have sinned, but chose to not sin! If we had the divine knowledge that Jesus came into this world with, we too could choose to not sin, we are made in the image of God, lacking divine knowledge and essence, and eternal life. We gain the knowledge needed through God's Word, and we gain eternal life by believing in HIM. We can never gain divine essence.

 

[Frogman]

While Jesus is certainly God with us and He tabernacled among men, it is most certainly not to be denied that he was operating under the divine will and appointment of God the Father. In this way he is the Second Person of the Godhead, needed as a kinsman redeemer and the only one able to offer to God a sinsless life. There were temptations upon him, but these temptations found no sin in Him and could not but be overcome by Him.

Sin had no place either in his flesh or Spirit and therefore could find no interest in Him. The greatest acheivement in deceiving men satan has accomplished is the thought that the Son of God could possibly have sinned.

Bro. Dallas

 

[The Archangel]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Archangel,
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Therefore Jesus' 100% God-ness trumps, as it were, His humanity. Therefore, He could not sin because God cannot sin.

This says that God in the form of man has no free will! The truth is God, regardless of form does have free will, and can by choice deviate in any manner that God chooses. Who's to stop God? Who does God answer to?
</font>[/QUOTE]You still claim that Jesus could sin. Please give scriptural evidence for that.

Don't give opinion, logic, of fairy-tales. Give scripture.

Scripture is necessary in a discussion about Jesus since Scripture is where we learn about Him.

Blessings,

Archangel

 

[Yelsew]

Yes, Archangel, I believe that AS A MAN, Jesus could have succombed to sin. But He did not sin, because He was faithful to God the Father and to His purpose. That is why in Revelation 5 He is called Worthy, He alone conquered Sin and Death.

Notice, I said Conquered sin. Succombing to temptation would be a sin. That implies that he could have sinned, but, He did not sin! That does not mean He could not! If He could not have failed, then his effort would not have been considered "Worthy". For that which you cannot fail at is not newsworthy? Only that which you can fail at, but do not fail at, is newsworthy and brings Praise and Honor when you succeed.

So, Yes, Jesus could have sinned, but did not, therefore, being the Lamb of God, slain before the foundation of the world, Jesus alone is worthy to open the scroll. He overcame! He conquered! Now neither sin nor death has dominion over man. We are no longer condemned to death when we sin, because Jesus Conquered sin, and Death. Therefore,we can be saved through FAITH ALONE, just as scriptures say!

 

[Frogman]

Then your argument denies the diety of Christ. Plain and simple.

Bro. Dallas