Age of Accountability

Oh and another thought, even if you were right on David being able to go to him in Hades, It would not have been the comfort that it was to him if he knew that his child would be in torments, so that view doesn't hold water.

God speed.

 

[ November 18, 2001: Message edited by: PackerBacker ]

 

Joey:
Hades wasn't the place of torment in the sense that hell is. David could have gone to the same place his child was -- hades -- if he (david) had died.
I guess the point being that what David said has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not, since the time of Christ's sacrifice on the cross, a baby goes to heaven or not.

You have to go by what the word of God says. Romans chapter 5 is very clear about why Christ had to die to redeem his people. Through our federal representative Adam, ALL sinned and were seperated from God. Without a divine act of grace from God no one would be saved. Salvation is from God Alone. He either chose you, or anyone else, or He did not. Like I said before, man in his natural state, including babies at conception, are seperated from God and UNABLE to do anything for their salvation. Before the foundation of the world (eph. 1:4) God chose His people. Like it or not the entire bible talks about the Sovereign election of God. God does as he pleases. Romans 9.

I just rest on what the word says, not questioning God or trying to use my reasoning about it. So, I believe I have thought through the subject and have gone as far as the word of God allows me to go. I trust in God to save who He wants to.

 

Joey,

I thought you allready did "know it all" based on the way you come across to everyone. Your close to the line in my opinion. I dropped Paul's comments in here for everyone to benifit by. It is your arrogance that bugs me. If I was Paul, I doubt I'd listen to your offer of introducing him to your Jesus, based on your arrogance.

[ November 18, 2001: Message edited by: PackerBacker ]

[ November 18, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Hades wasn't the place of torment in the sense that hell is. David could have gone to the same place his child was -- hades -- if he (david) had died. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Does the Bible not say that the rich man lifted his eyes up in hell ( your translation may say hades) being in torments? And that he was tormented in this flame?

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I thought you allready did "know it all" based on the way you come across to everyone. Simply put, your not being sarcastic, your being a jerk! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I put the sarcasm there because {edited due to me being ignorant}
And where do you see me saying I know it all, I can show you many of posts where I say I know I don't know it all nor claim to know it all, I just add in my two cents like everyone else. You just don't like me because I disagreed with your point of view and told you that your earlier post suggested that either God did things like you had said in your post or He was unrighteous, which was a staement that never should have been made. Now I have nothing against you nor do I dislike you in any way. I like some of your points you've made in other threads, but I'll not sit back and just take everything you say as some golden cookie, nor do I think that you think that I should, so where is the problem with me disagreeing with you and putting in my two cents? I made a statement in another thread about tithing and you rightly rebuked me for it, and I seen where I was wrong, no offence was taken, you made a statement really you never should have made and I simply rebuked what you said. Like me or not it is that simple. I still do not dislike you, and hold nothing against you. But I have not resorted to name calling as many here so often do, please do not do the same. I am not a jerk. I am a man trying to follow God's word the best I know how and hope to shed some light to other people as other people shed some light to me. I do hope that you will forgive my previous post which did seem as an attack on you, but was only meant to rebuke what you said about Either God did it that way or God was unrighteous.

God speed.

[ November 18, 2001: Message edited by: Joey M ]

 

JoeyM:
My translation (NASB) does say hades or sheol. I'm not sure. But the word translated hell in the KJV should really be hades and sheol except where it is actually talking about gehenna (lake of fire). Anyway, David's son, like I said was not in a ever-lasting, but in the grave, or the abode of the dead. So, like I said, that illustration says nothing about whether a baby goes to heaven or hell since the time of Christ.
So, back to the original question. My view is that God "saves" who he pleases. Based on what? His good pleasure. That's as far as we can take it. (At least in my humble opinion). Have to go until tomorrow, but I enjoyed our discussion. Have a great night.
James2

 

James2,

Thanks for the reply. Actually I was talking about Paul Hadik. He is a new person who started a thread right above this one. I quoted his remarks. Appreciate your cool headed approach to sharing your opinions.

PackerBacker


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JAMES2:
PackerBacker:
I guess you were talking about Paul. Of course, a former murder, etc. But now a born again believer saved by God's grace.
I also find NOTHING in the bible about babies being saved because they are babies. I can only say God gave us his written word and be (At least me) go by that. If I can't fiqure something out I leave it to God. Some day I'll understand.
I don't mean to be harsh, but I have been accused of that because of my stand on this issue.
ALL HAVE inherited sin from our federal representative, Adam. On the other hand, all that Christ died for, inherit His imputed righteousness and are His sheep, and He knows his sheep and will lose NONE that the Father has given him. I leave it at that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joey M:



And where do you see me saying I know it all, I can show you many of posts where I say I know I don't know it all nor claim to know it all, I just add in my two cents like everyone else.

God speed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When you claimed to know my position that I was calling God unrighteous and sitting in judement of him. You seemed pretty sure that you knew it all about my position from my question.

Explain to me what is wrong with the orininal question that you feel so quailfied to rebuke me for. Again, do you never talk to real people? Have you never heard that comment before. I feel sorry for you when you meet someone searching for answers. Are you going to rip the person saying they should have never asked the question or are you going to attempt to answer it?

Anyhow, enough. Let's get back to the topic.

 

Matthew 19:14 (NIV)
14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

2 Samuel 12:22-23 (NIV)
22 He answered, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.’
23 But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”

Mark 10:14 (NIV)
14 When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

Romans 7:9 (NIV)
9 Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

On the last one, Thomas Cassidy has already commented quite well: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> The time of accountability is found in Romans chapter 7 with the key verse being verse 9. Paul talks of being "alive without the law once" but "when the commandment came, sin revived and I died." Until the "law came" I.E., Paul was able to understand the requirements of the law, he was alive, but when he was able to understand his accountability before a Holy God, "sin revived" and he was then subject to spiritual death, being eternally separated from a Holy God. There is no "age" per se, but when each of us individually comes to the ability to realize we are accountable to God. Some mental defectives never come to that place, and are thus "safe" from the judgment upon sin. For most of us it is sometime in mid to late childhood.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Explain to me what is wrong with the orininal question that you feel so quailfied to rebuke me for. Again, do you never talk to real people? Have you never heard that comment before. I feel sorry for you when you meet someone searching for answers. Are you going to rip the person saying they should have never asked the question or are you going to attempt to answer it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There was nothing wrong with the orginal question, what was wrong is the way you worded that God either done it this way or God was unrighteous. I did not say I know what postion you hold or believe, I just took what you said and showed you where that was wrong. And it doesn't seem you were seeking answers when someone says God did it this way or He is unrighteous, it would seem they already know what they believe. I am not saying that you really believe that way, just saying you never should have said it that way. Sorry if you do not agree.

God speed.

 

Amen John.

 

Hey John:

liked your comments. However I would still like to see Scripture showing that my not understanding my sinful condition relieves me of the judgement of a Holy God. The aspect of mercy has within it the inherent understanding of guilt. If on the one babies are sinless and innocent than we have problems with Scripture (Cain and Abel kept out of the Garden, I Sam 15, Noah's flood etc)
if however they are not sinless then the penalty of separation is still required. While I hope that God in His incomprehensible mercy pardons the young and the mentally handicapped the question remains "is He required to show his mercy to all?" and if so where is that based in Scripture?
Again, enjoy reading you.

 

PackerBacker:
Sorry, that's what I get for jumping into a middle of discussion. I thought you meant the Apostle Paul.
I just feel somethings are not as clear in scripture as we would like, so I can accept that. I guess if we knew everything then we would be God. Heaven Forbid!!!!

Thanks for the complement. I try to get my views across with the christian attitude that I need to be kind ande considerate of others. Now, I'm not saying that I always do that. Especially if someone is being disrespectful of the Bible or just being abnoxious for the fun of it. Then I try not to respond at all and let them be wrong and miserable all by themselves.

I enjoy the give and take, and I engage in this because I am not beyond learning from others. But I do have some definite ideas based on many years of studying the scriptures, the great writers, the classics, etc. Hope you are having a great night.
James2

 

Paul Hadik:
Actually, I agree with you mostly. I believe that since all have sinned,according to Romans 5, that babies need salvation just like anyone else. God saves them or not. If he had to (a condradiction in terms) it would not be grace. He saves who he wants because it pleases him to do so. Period.
Bible is pretty clear about that. Romans 9.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PackerBacker:

Just my thoughts, but it seems we either have unrighteous children in these accounts or an unrighteous God.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Joey for your benifit, here is my quote from the first page of this thread. Please show us all where I said: (your quote) "that God either done it this way or God was unrighteous" which led you to accuse me of judging God? If you can't, drop it.

If you had asked first, you would have found out I believe the clear teachings that all men are born sinners due to Adam's sin (Rom 5:12). I also believe that the only child that was born righeous was the Lord Jesus Christ. If none are righeous (Rom 3:9,10)why is it so hard to answer the question by saying the children were unrighteous, just like the rest of us? Fortunuatly there is such a thing as the undeserved grace of God. I really do hope God is merciful and gracious to little children, but it will not be based on their righteousness.

[ November 19, 2001: Message edited by: PackerBacker ]

 

Paul, et al,

Hopefully I did not imply that infants and "infirms" are sinless. That God saves anyone is because He chooses to. Now we're all in one accord hopefully that God chooses to save those who trust in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. But what about infants and infirms? In addition to the verses given above, there is:

Luke 12:48 (NIV)
48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

Numerous (most) theologians that I have commentaries on agree from the verses previously given that David and his seven-day-old son are united in heaven.

Romans 9:14-15 (NIV)
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

God bless!

 

JAMES2 wrote:
&gt; BW Smith: I was assuming that people here actually believed in the Bible,

BWS: I do.

&gt; not some modernist, historical-critical view that denies almost everything the bible teaches.

BWS: The historical-critical views do not deny much of anything the Bible teaches, but enhance our hermeneutic.

&gt; Of course Original Sin is one of the "fundamental" doctrines of the Bible.

BWS: Despite the fact that those words don't appear in the Bible.

&gt; Like it or not, man, all mankind, is born in sin and UNABLE to "accept" Christ.

BWS: We are born with the inclination to sin, but we are not born in sin.

&gt; I've heard every liberal criticism of the Bible and none of them hold the least value or interest to me.

BWS: So you get to pick and choose what you "want to believe"?

&gt; God has either given you the free gift of grace or He has not. You are either born again or you are not.

BWS: He has and you are.

&gt; If not, you CANNOT understand the things of God, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 cor. 2:14).

BWS: Amen.

&gt; I bet you wouldn't believe this, but did you know there are people out their that say they are Christian, but don't believe, like Jesus and Paul did, that Adam and Eve were actualy people?

BWS: Jesus never said Adam and Eve were historical people and what Paul believed about their historicity doesn't matter.

&gt; Some "Christians" think it is okay for ministers to be homosexual, or that being a homosexual is not a grave disorder and preversion. Imagine that!!!

BWS: And I disagree with that assertion, but I respect their right as Baptists to believe it.

&gt; Some believe that the Bible is not inspired, but full of errors.

BWS: And I am not one of them.

&gt; Some don't believe in the atonement, since no original sin, no need for atonement, no need for Christ to die on the cross.

BWS: The existence of a historical Adam has nothing to do with the reality of our personal sin and need for atonement.

&gt; I have actually run into people that claim to be "christian" that think like that. I've often wondered why they don't join the Unitiarian-pagan church instead of claiming to be christian.

BWS: Maybe the "unitarian-pagan church" hasn't opened a chapter in their area?


&gt; Oh well, I guess people are free to say they are anything they want, or to be influenced by lost seminary professors etc.

BWS: Or saved seminary professors that teach critical studies as well.

&gt; I'm not saying that applies to you, but I have never understood why someone would claim to be christian, but deny all the major doctrines of the christian faith.

BWS: Which I don't.

&gt; Sorry, but I find nothing in scripture to justify the position that a baby is saved because they are babies.

BWS: Gen 3, read from the symbolic standpoint, indicates that our separation from God begins with our own sin.

&gt; I read that ALL have sinned, and unless regenerated by a sovereign, free act of grace by a Sovereign God, they are lost.

BWS: You're contadicting yourself. Have all sinned, or are all born into sin? I claim the former without the latter.

&gt; But then, I don't go on fallen, depraved, sinful, lost man's "reasoning." I go by the word of God. Everytime I read Romans 9 and see that Paul dealt with all of man's feeble attempts to question why God does what he does, I just leave it at that. Let's face it!! Man can do NOTHING to save himself. His salvation depends completely on ANOTHER -- God Alone.

BWS: Amen and amen.

 

Temple wrote:
&gt; It is because they have not personally encountered the living, Sovereign, All-powerful God, of which Isaiah said when He saw Him high and lifted up, (Isa 6:5) and the beloved Apostle John, whom seeing the glorified Christ (Rev 1:17).

BWS: Temple, watch your words against your brothers in Christ, because "anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven". (Luke 12:10)

&gt; To deny His word as literally true is to deny The Word, and call Him a liar,

BWS: This isn't in the Bible, so you are the liar, not me, and not Him.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BWSmith:
Temple wrote:
&gt; To deny His word as literally true is to deny The Word, and call Him a liar,

BWS: This isn't in the Bible, so you are the liar, not me, and not Him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


THE WORD OF GOD
identified as: words of prophets: Nu 22:38; De 18:18, 19; 1 Ki 12:22; 17:2, 16; Is 2:1; Je 1:2; 20:8; 23:16–22; Eze 6:1, 2; 12:25; 33:7; Hos 1:1; Joe 1:1; Mk 7:13; Lu 3:2; 2 Pe 1:19–21

OT Scriptures: Jn 10:34, 35; 2 Ti 3:16 Jesus’ words: Lu 5:1; Jn 3:34; 14:24; 17:14 Apostolic teaching: Ac 6:2; 8:25; 13:44; 1 Co 14:36; Col 1:25; 1 Th 2:13; 4:15; 1 Pe 1:25

oracles of God: Ro 3:2 word of salvation: Ac 13:26 word of grace: Ac 14:3; 20:32 word of reconciliation: 2 Co 5:19 word of truth: 2 Co 6:7; Col 1:5; 2 Ti 2:15; Jam 1:18 word of life: Php 2:16 word of righteousness: Heb 5:13 good word: Heb 6:5

characteristics of perfect: Ps 18:30; 19:7; Pr 30:5 eternal: Ps 119:89–91; Is 40:8; Mt 5:18; 24:35; 1 Pe 1:25 living: Php 2:16; Heb 4:12 powerful: Is 55:11; Heb 4:12 awesome: Ps 119:120, 161 righteous: Ps 119:7, 75, 123, 138, 144, 1 Pe 2:2 truthful, dependable: Ps 19:7, 9; 119:43, 86, 142, 151, 160; Ro 9:6; 2 Co 6:7; Col 1:5; 2 Ti 2:15; Jam 1:18; 2 Pe 1:19 inexhaustible: Ps 119:96 full of wonders: Ps 119:18, 27, 129

effects of creation: Ps 33:6, 9; 148:5; Heb 11:3; 2 Pe 3:5 sustains creation: Ps 147:15–18; Heb 1:3; 2 Pe 3:7 t gives spiritual life: Ps 19:7; 119:25, 50, 93, 107, 154; Php 2:16; 2 Ti 3:15; Jam 1:18, 21; 1 Pe 1:23; 1 Jo 1:1 liberates: Ps 119:32, 45; Jn 8:32 sanctifies: Ps 119:11, 133; Jn 17:17; Eph 5:26; 1 Pe 2:2 t heals: Ps 107:20; Mt 8:8, 16; Lu 7:7 brings faith: Jn 17:20; Ro 10:17 judges hearts: Heb 4:12 gives light and understanding: Ps 9:7, 8; 119:34, 73, 98–100, 105, 125, 144, 160; 2 Ti 3:15–17 t brings prosperity: Jos 1:7, 8; Ps 1:2, 3 judges: Jn 12:48

proper response to receive and let dwell in: Ps 119:11; Lu 10:39; Jn 5:38; 8:51; Ac 11:1; Col 3:16; Jam 1:21; 1 Jo 1:10; 2:14 study: Ac 17:11; 2 Ti 2:15 meditate on: Jos 1:8; Ps 1:2; 119:15, 48, 78, 99, 148 abide in: Jn 8:31; 15:7; 2 Jo 9 trust: Ps 119:42, 49, 74, 81 practice: Ps 119:17, 67; Lu 8:21; 11:28; Jn 8:51, 52; 14:23; 15:20; Jam 1:22, 23; Re 3:8, 10 Hold fast: Php 2:16; Tit 1:9 t delight in: Ps 19:8, 10; 119:14, 16, 24, 77, 92, 103, 143, 174; Je 15:16 love: Ps 119:47, 48, 97, 113, 119, 127, 132, 140, 159, 163, 165, 167 value: Ps 119:72, 111, 127, 162 stand in awe of: Ps 119:161; Is 66:2, 5 praise, glorify: Ps 56:4, 10; Ac 13:48

improper use disobeying: 1 Pe 2:8; 3:1 peddling: 2 Co 2:17 adulterating: 2 Co 4:2 t altering: Re 22:18, 19 invalidating by human traditions: Mt 15:6; Mk 7:13

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So, God lied and used myth to convey His never changing truth?


I Tim 6:3-5 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.