Ephesians 1:4...."According as He hath chosen us in Him BEFORE the foundation of the world.........having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good will of Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will........
Psalm 58: "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies...."
Have you ever known a newborn baby that could even speak? Could they intentionally lie? How can a baby who cannot form real thoughts lie? So, this verse is obvious hyperbole. And look at the next verse:
Psa 58:4
Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
So, do you believe babies are poisonous like a serpent? That sure would make breast-feeding dangerous don't you think?
This shows how people err when they take a verse of scripture that is obvious exagerration and form doctrine around it. You should be going around warning people about being bitten by a newborn child, as they are poisonous.
And what are they going astray from? Nearly all scripture that describes us as sinners say we have "gone astray". If you are born evil and go astray, do you go toward good? We are described like sheep and have gone astray and become lost. How do you go astray from the flock unless you were first in the flock. Folks overlook
the obvious.
The churches down through history believed and taught original sin, and hence they bent the meaning of baptism to include 9 day old infants to rid them of original sin. The Reformation altered the meaning of baptism to be a covenant that the infant would be raised in the faith.
To deny original sin through Adam to all humanity, is to deny the very essence of scripture.
No, many early church fathers did not hold to original sin. It was Augustine primarily that promoted this doctrine.
I do not deny that something happened to man in the garden, only I believe what the scriptures say, not Augustine or Calvin. God cursed the ground and said Adam would return to the dust. The scriptures say we are dust, and so we return to the ground as well. This is why we physically die.
The scriptures also say man became as God to know good and evil. This cannot be evil, as God said man has become "as one of us".
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold
, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
If knowing good and evil is evil, then God is evil, because God himself said man is become as one of us to know good and evil.
Calvinism denies that man knows good, but the scriptures say he does. I am not saying that man is good, no man is 100% good. But no man is 100% evil either. Even after Adam and Eve the scriptures confirm that man is made in the image of God.
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed:
for in the image of God made he man.
Jam 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father;
and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
This is after the "fall" and the scriptures continue to say we are made in the image or after the similitude of God. Yet you say man is utterly evil.
Man could now discern between good and evil and became responsible when he did wrong. Before this they were like little children who have no self awareness and can run around naked without being ashamed. Little children are not aware when they do wrong such as take a toy from a sibling. Because they cannot understand right from wrong they are not accountable, neither are mentally handicapped people or the truly insane.
I believe that Adam and Eve aquired this knowledge when they ate of the tree of
knowledge of good and evil. I do believe this is passed down to us. A newborn child has the seed of this knowledge, but cannot understand right from wrong for some time. But in time this ability matures and the child becomes aware of what is right and wrong. When this ability matures to a degree where the child can understand his responsibility before God, if he willfully sins he spiritually dies. There are many scriptures to support this (Deut 1:39, Isa 7:6, Jon 4:11, Ecc 7:29)
ON man's will, we adopt the Permissive Will of God under God's absolute sovereignty. Man's will, however, is governed by his fallen nature, and God will intervene, at His pleasure, as He did with Jonah.
It is obvious God permits some sin, otherwise he would have destroyed us all. But I completely disagree that a man is an utter slave to his nature, otherwise God could not justly demand that we do good. That would be like demanding a blind man see, and then punishing him forever for his inability.
An infant can and does show evidences of rebellion at a very early age, and this includes the sin of lying, even if the lie is to guard himself from parental punshment. The scripture says that "no liar shall enter heaven."
I agree children can do wrong, but not a newborn. The scriptures clearly tell us that Esau and Jacob had done neither good or evil in their mother's womb.
So, if the infant is "saved"..the only way to enter heaven...when does he lose his salvation to become responsible?
The infant is neither saved nor lost. He has done neither good nor evil. He still needs Jesus as his physical body is under the curse, and he still needs Jesus's righteousness imputed to him.
Man is dead in his sins and trespasses. I have yet to hear a corpse speak!!!!!
Cheers,
Jim
And yet we see the rich man in hell holding a conversation with Abraham. He could see, hear, speak, feel torment and thirst, he worried about his living brothers. Quite extraordinary for a corpse, don't you think?
We also have devils who are spiritually dead holding conversations with Jesus, and even OBEYING him when he cast them out.
